Freeze, the Checkered Garter Update

[Greg'sGarters]

I had got a Checkered Garter in the mail today. However, I had been informed by the Weather Channel that temps would be in the mid 40's - around brumation temps. However, after he had already been shipped, the temps dropped DRASTICALLY. It ended up being in the mid to low 20's. This concerned me GREATLY. When the package had arrived in the mail it felt very cold. I had opened it and unwrapped everything, and below all that insulation lie a styrofoam box. I had opened the box and lifted up the paper towel covering the snake. There, right in front of my eyes lie a freshly dead, frozen snake. It was then that all the police training I had been through kicked in. I immediately picked up the snake and unthawed all his vital organs (not all of him was frozen but his heart, esophagus, stomach, and intestines were) by running my hands up and down him. Once he was unthawed, I massaged his heart, while keeping him close to me. After about 5 minutes, BOOM, I saw him take his first breath! I had revived him! He is currently doing much better, however he is still under critical condition. Below is a photo of him about a minute after he came out of cold induced "coma" (if you will).

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[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck.

[Greg'sGarters]

​Thank you!

[ConcinusMan]

This time of year it's just plain dumb to try to ship them, regardless of what your local temp might be. (shipper should have known better) Just look at that cold air mass on the national map. You just don't want to risk the snake going through that during the trip. Even if you're shipping from one of the warmer states, to another warm state, they sometimes don't take a direct route and end up freezing.

Hopefully your snake wasn't exposed for too long. Ive seen them get cold enough that they were close to death, but make a full recovery. The critical factor is how long they were that cold.

Ship snakes in this? In January? A person would have to be really stupid, or just doesn't care.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2njgais.jpg

[thamneil]

For future reference, don't warm the snakes up too quickly when that happens. Let them gradually warm to room temperature and then place them in their enclosures. From what I have always been told, warming them up too fast will cause damage. Keep an eye out for seizures. This happened to me recently.

And on a side note, it would be impossible for the snake to live had it been frozen. Frozen organs would no longer have worked. He was not frozen, just cold.

[ConcinusMan]

For future reference, don't warm the snakes up too quickly when that happens. Let them gradually warm to room temperature and then place them in their enclosures. From what I have always been told, warming them up too fast will cause damage. Keep an eye out for seizures.

He called me when the snake arrived and I told him the same thing. The seizures would indicate possible brain damage. A snake could survive critically low temps but still end up with brain damage and if that happens they'll have seizures when you warm them up. I'd say if the snake is acting normal by now, he's probably OK. If not, it's likely he won't make it. There could still be organ and/or brain damage. Next few days will tell.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yes I was just about to say what Neil said... there is no way the snake was actually froze. He would be dead. I received a snake in the same condition once. An albino florida banded water snake. The seller shipped the snake with a hand warmer and without even getting the OK or a temp check first. Needless to say I received a lifeless snake cicle. as I was taking pics of the "dead" snake he revived. He ended up developing respiratory issues and perished. The seller said he was going to send me a new one and never did come through.

[ConcinusMan]

Well this is a garter though, not a florida snake so hopefully he'll get through it without getting ill. I wouldn't expect a garter to get a RI just from getting really cold.

[d_virginiana]

My dad got lucky with the ones he recently got shipped to him. We had about a week of 70 degree days, and they were shipped from VA to NC, so they weren't in-transit for very long. Had they been shipped this week, there's no way they'd have made it (hopefully the seller wouldn't have shipped in weather like this...).

Good luck. Hopefully he makes a full recovery.

[infernalis]

Last year I fished a seemingly lifeless garter out of a snow bank (I made a thread) and it pulled through.

My Milk snake Carmella was frost bitten and came through it.

These little colubrids are extremely rugged, But I still would never ship one this time of year.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

I'm so glad you didn't lose him. Hoping he makes a full recovery!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well this is a garter though, not a florida snake so hopefully he'll get through it without getting ill. I wouldn't expect a garter to get a RI just from getting really cold.


Water snakes are incredibly tough, even the Florida ones. Just like the Florida garters, they can handle being chilled. But when they get THAT cold to the point where they are "dead", it is unhealthy even for a garter snake. It isn't good for their internal organs.

[d_virginiana]

We don't have many garters where I live, but water snakes are always the last snakes I see out before winter really kicks in and some of the first I see coming out in the spring.

[Stefan-A]

It's a shame you didn't film it.

[mike_panic]

Great story but forgive me for asking this..... What does police training have to do with it? How has "all of your police training" helped you revive your snake over good solid common sense? I'm glad he made it for you. Shipping can be tough at times. Best of luck with him. Mike Panichi

[chris-uk]

.... I immediately picked up the snake and unthawed all his vital organs (not all of him was frozen but his heart, esophagus, stomach, and intestines were) by running my hands up and down him. Once he was unthawed, I massaged his heart, while keeping him close to me......

I'm glad that he revived, but I think you'll find that he wasn't actually frozen. As others have pointed out, if his organs had frozen he wouldn't be slithering now. There's a handful of animals that can survive freezing, but as a rule, freezing causes massive cell damage and turns internal organs to mush.
Can you also give me some pointers as to how to find the heart to perform CPR on a garter if I need to? I'd be stuffed if I had to try to find the heart and massage one of mine back to life.


Just to digress...
Stefan - when I was in Christmas over New Year nearly 20 years ago, my friend told me that you get cases every year of people getting drunk, falling asleep on the way home without a hat on, and their brains freezing. Apparently the ones that they manage to revive are often vegetables. Is that an urban legend in Finland, or does it happen?

[Stefan-A]

Just to digress...
Stefan - when I was in Christmas over New Year nearly 20 years ago, my friend told me that you get cases every year of people getting drunk, falling asleep on the way home without a hat on, and their brains freezing. Apparently the ones that they manage to revive are often vegetables. Is that an urban legend in Finland, or does it happen?
Well, there have been instances of people either lying down or sitting down in one of our many comfortable looking snow piles on their way home from the bar and subsequently passing out. Not sure about the injuries they get, and I doubt the hat matters much. But it's pretty much true, these things do happen.

Came across one candidate a few years ago on my way to the grocery store one evening. He hadn't passed out yet, so I asked him whether he needed help getting home, which he didn't, since apparently a friend was coming to pick him up. He wasn't there anymore when I came back 15 minutes later, so I suppose he made it. I know one other person who passed out on his way home. He was saved in time, as well. So yeah, it happens.

[Greg'sGarters]

For future reference, don't warm the snakes up too quickly when that happens. Let them gradually warm to room temperature and then place them in their enclosures. From what I have always been told, warming them up too fast will cause damage. Keep an eye out for seizures. This happened to me recently.

And on a side note, it would be impossible for the snake to live had it been frozen. Frozen organs would no longer have worked. He was not frozen, just cold.

I felt it, it was really stiff. Like he had just swallowed a block of wood, if he wasn't frozen, I don't know what it was. I knew not to warm him up too quickly, that's why I used my hands as opposed to breathing on him or putting him in a warm cage. It's like when you are working out in the snow, and you come in and run hot water on your hands it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable. I warmed him up over about 2 minutes.


Yes I was just about to say what Neil said... there is no way the snake was actually froze. He would be dead. I received a snake in the same condition once. An albino florida banded water snake. The seller shipped the snake with a hand warmer and without even getting the OK or a temp check first. Needless to say I received a lifeless snake cicle. as I was taking pics of the "dead" snake he revived. He ended up developing respiratory issues and perished. The seller said he was going to send me a new one and never did come through.

Is it possible that the cold might have kept him alive? I know that when someone gets a finger cut off, you are supposed to keep it on ice until you can get to a hospital.


It's a shame you didn't film it.

I wish I had too. At the time though, I was more worried about getting the snake back alive than to filming the whole thing, with my luck he would have died in the time I was filming it.


Great story but forgive me for asking this..... What does police training have to do with it? How has "all of your police training" helped you revive your snake over good solid common sense? I'm glad he made it for you. Shipping can be tough at times. Best of luck with him. Mike Panichi

I had taken a few courses on emergency care. When you dial 911, no matter who you need, the police are always first on the scene. You learn a little bit of emergency care, just in case you are first on a scene and you need to prevent them from dying until the EMT/Paramedics get to the sceme.


I'm glad that he revived, but I think you'll find that he wasn't actually frozen. As others have pointed out, if his organs had frozen he wouldn't be slithering now. There's a handful of animals that can survive freezing, but as a rule, freezing causes massive cell damage and turns internal organs to mush.
Can you also give me some pointers as to how to find the heart to perform CPR on a garter if I need to? I'd be stuffed if I had to try to find the heart and massage one of mine back to life.


Just to digress...
Stefan - when I was in Christmas over New Year nearly 20 years ago, my friend told me that you get cases every year of people getting drunk, falling asleep on the way home without a hat on, and their brains freezing. Apparently the ones that they manage to revive are often vegetables. Is that an urban legend in Finland, or does it happen?

If he wasn't frozen, what were the SOLID chunks along his body? They felt like ice. Plus how about if he hadn't been frozen long enough to destroy the tissue? Honestly It is about 1/5-1/4 the length down the snake. I wasn't sure of the heart location either, so I took the brightest light I had, and shined it through him (he is albino, I could see through him) and located the heart (it is longer than a human heart).

[Greg'sGarters]

This is an update on Freeze's status. He is currently doing MUCH better. He has not showed any signs of neurological damage. He is flicking his tongue at a normal speed. However, he is still very lethargic. He has showed more interest in moving and his reaction time has improved. I will continue to keep you all updated.

[garterchick]

This time of year it's just plain dumb to try to ship them, regardless of what your local temp might be. (shipper should have known better) Just look at that cold air mass on the national map. You just don't want to risk the snake going through that during the trip. Even if you're shipping from one of the warmer states, to another warm state, they sometimes don't take a direct route and end up freezing.

Hopefully your snake wasn't exposed for too long. Ive seen them get cold enough that they were close to death, but make a full recovery. The critical factor is how long they were that cold.

Ship snakes in this? In January? A person would have to be really stupid, or just doesn't care.

So here's the thing: I'm the shipper and no, I'm not plain dumb, really stupid or uncareing. What Greg didn't tell everyone is that I did hold off on shipping for several days because of temperatures regardless of how many texts he sent me trying to convince me it would be fine. Only when the projected temps at both ends allowed for save shipping did I aggree to do so. Yes, maybe I sholud not have shipped him regardless, hindsight is 20/20, but I did the best I could by insulating the box really well and by including a heatpack.
So, to those of you that feel the need to resort to name-calling without knowing all the facts, please inform yourselves and be a little less judgemental.
Thank you,

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

.

So here's the thing: I'm the shipper and no, I'm not plain dumb, really stupid or uncareing. What Greg didn't tell everyone is that I did hold off on shipping for several days because of temperatures regardless of how many texts he sent me trying to convince me it would be fine. Only when the projected temps at both ends allowed for save shipping did I aggree to do so. Yes, maybe I sholud not have shipped him regardless, hindsight is 20/20, but I did the best I could by insulating the box really well and by including a heatpack.
So, to those of you that feel the need to resort to name-calling without knowing all the facts, please inform yourselves and be a little less judgemental.
Thank you,

What sort of heat pack did you use?

[thamneil]

I felt it, it was really stiff. Like he had just swallowed a block of wood, if he wasn't frozen, I don't know what it was. I knew not to warm him up too quickly, that's why I used my hands as opposed to breathing on him or putting him in a warm cage. It's like when you are working out in the snow, and you come in and run hot water on your hands it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable. I warmed him up over about 2 minutes.



Is it possible that the cold might have kept him alive? I know that when someone gets a finger cut off, you are supposed to keep it on ice until you can get to a hospital.



I wish I had too. At the time though, I was more worried about getting the snake back alive than to filming the whole thing, with my luck he would have died in the time I was filming it.



I had taken a few courses on emergency care. When you dial 911, no matter who you need, the police are always first on the scene. You learn a little bit of emergency care, just in case you are first on a scene and you need to prevent them from dying until the EMT/Paramedics get to the sceme.



If he wasn't frozen, what were the SOLID chunks along his body? They felt like ice. Plus how about if he hadn't been frozen long enough to destroy the tissue? Honestly It is about 1/5-1/4 the length down the snake. I wasn't sure of the heart location either, so I took the brightest light I had, and shined it through him (he is albino, I could see through him) and located the heart (it is longer than a human heart).



Freezing equals ice and ice kills tissue instantly. There is not such thing as not frozen long enough. A frozen snake is a dead snake. Warming him over two minutes is ridiculously fast. The snake needs to come to room temperature before getting any warmer.

Whatever police training you received would have been more or less useless in this situation. The physiology of a reptile is entirely different than that of a person. The best thing you could have done in this situation is just leave the animal somewhere quiet and hope that it pulls through.

[garterchick]

A 10 hour hand warmer which is all I could find.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I felt it, it was really stiff. Like he had just swallowed a block of wood, if he wasn't frozen, I don't know what it was. I knew not to warm him up too quickly, that's why I used my hands as opposed to breathing on him or putting him in a warm cage. It's like when you are working out in the snow, and you come in and run hot water on your hands it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable. I warmed him up over about 2 minutes.



Greg.... your snake was not frozen... plain and simple. Next time, just leave it to warm up in room temperature air. Whether or not you've caused damage remains to be seen.


Is it possible that the cold might have kept him alive? I know that when someone gets a finger cut off, you are supposed to keep it on ice until you can get to a hospital.



That is to stop decomposition from occurring so that there are more hopes of reconnecting the tissue and getting it to stay healthy. If a person dies, they keep the body very cold. Does that keep them, or bring them back to life? of course not. If a person is extremely ill and on the verge of death, cooling them down to almost freezing would do nothing but kill them.. the last thing it would do is keep them alive. The same can be said for a reptile or any other creature... cooling is done to stop decomposition by slowing/halting the growth of bacteria. Not to keep things alive.



I wish I had too. At the time though, I was more worried about getting the snake back alive than to filming the whole thing, with my luck he would have died in the time I was filming it.



Don't take that comment too seriously. lol.


I had taken a few courses on emergency care. When you dial 911, no matter who you need, the police are always first on the scene. You learn a little bit of emergency care, just in case you are first on a scene and you need to prevent them from dying until the EMT/Paramedics get to the sceme.



How much police training do you really get at 15? Where I live we received these same courses as a part of regular school. It doesn't apply to reptiles, it applies to humans. If you had just laid him on your counter, he would have revived on his own.



If he wasn't frozen, what were the SOLID chunks along his body? They felt like ice. Plus how about if he hadn't been frozen long enough to destroy the tissue? Honestly It is about 1/5-1/4 the length down the snake. I wasn't sure of the heart location either, so I took the brightest light I had, and shined it through him (he is albino, I could see through him) and located the heart (it is longer than a human heart).

Your imagination running wild, perhaps? It certainly wasn't ice you were feeling. Please tell me, how would the internal organs freeze FIRST before his extremities of skin, tail and that sort of thing? We don't doubt that you located his heart. But you didn't locate a frozen heart. A reptile's heart beats slower and slower the cooler they get. If they get cold enough. It can seem as though it has completely stopped. Whether the animal is frozen for 3 seconds of an hour, it doesn't matter. The irreversible damage is caused the exact moment the water forms into ice crystals. Water expands in volume when it freezes. To see what I mean fill a jug COMPLETELY with water until there is no air left. Freeze it. The jug will be either really distended or may even crack open because the ice expands it so much. This same thing happens on a tiny basis inside of cells. The water turns to ice, explands and ruptures their cell membranes. This is why frozen specimens cannot really have a necropsy performed that would give any sort of real indication as to why it died. The moment tissue is frozen, it is damaged.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

A 10 hour hand warmer which is all I could find.

Okay. Thank you for being honest. Now I am going to be honest. That right there, is your biggest mistake. And no matter how you look at, it WAS highly irresponsible to do so. The only heat packs you should be using are the uniheat packs (or if there are any other brand that is the same thing) which last something like 48 hours, distribute heat slowly and evenly, and are made specifically to ship live animals. They cost something like $2.00. They can be ordered from many distributors online. Hand warmers get out of control hot! And heat needs to be consistent the entire time, not just for 10 hours. The reason you use a heat pack that lasts 2 days, is so if the box is delayed for a day, the reptile still has a chance. This snake would have been dead for sure had there been any delays. Even without delays, 10 hours is not enough... they are in the box for at LEAST 18 hours. Truthfully even properly packed this shipment may have failed. Heat packs will fail if the temperature drops below a certain point. Generally unless you're lucky, and you get a week of mid 50 degree weather (like we had here a week and a half ago) shipping this time of year is a big no-no. Even at the temps that Greg says were forecasted, I would not have shipped anything because it is close enough that a temperature drop of even a few degrees below the forecast would be bad. Reptiles die all of the time at the hands of the inexperienced shipper. At least this one didn't, and now that you know, you will be able to take the lesson away from this mistake and hopefully it won't happen again. Honestly on most forums you would be slammed really, really hard for this. Luckily, this forums is a bit on the soft side.

[chris-uk]

I felt it, it was really stiff. Like he had just swallowed a block of wood, if he wasn't frozen, I don't know what it was.
Then you'll have to face the fact that you didn't know what you were seeing and feeling. Did he feel brittle? Was his skin so hard and cold that your fingers felt like they were sticking to him? The fact remains that if he had frozen he would not have recovered. Therefore, based on your most recent update on the this little guy (i.e. that he seems to be recovering well) we need to discount your earlier observations which made you think he was actually frozen.



I knew not to warm him up too quickly, that's why I used my hands as opposed to breathing on him or putting him in a warm cage. It's like when you are working out in the snow, and you come in and run hot water on your hands it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable. I warmed him up over about 2 minutes.
This, "I knew not to warm him up too quickly", followed by, "I warmed him up over about 2 minutes"... Two mutually exclusive statements. You knew to warm him slowly, yet you did it quickly.



Is it possible that the cold might have kept him alive? I know that when someone gets a finger cut off, you are supposed to keep it on ice until you can get to a hospital.
To answer your first question - No.
If you know about packing a dismembered finger on ice for the trip to hospital, you'll also know about the importance that the finger should never come into contact with the ice. Many fingers cannot be reattached because someone knew half of this and just dropped a finger in a bag of ice. Direct contact with the ice freezes the flesh and kills it.



If he wasn't frozen, what were the SOLID chunks along his body? They felt like ice. Plus how about if he hadn't been frozen long enough to destroy the tissue? Honestly It is about 1/5-1/4 the length down the snake. I wasn't sure of the heart location either, so I took the brightest light I had, and shined it through him (he is albino, I could see through him) and located the heart (it is longer than a human heart).
I'd go with Shannon's "your imagination" and feeling what you thought should be there.
As soon as tissue is frozen the cells start breaking down.
I'll try the bright light with my albino, I'd not realised how much detail would be visible right up against a bright light.




The irreversible damage is caused the exact moment the water forms into ice crystals. Water expands in volume when it freezes. To see what I mean fill a jug COMPLETELY with water until there is no air left. Freeze it. The jug will be either really distended or may even crack open because the ice expands it so much. This same thing happens on a tiny basis inside of cells. The water turns to ice, expands and ruptures their cell membranes.
Not only the pressure from the increased volume, but at a microscopic level the ice crystals are sharp and piece the cell structures. I vaguely remember a histology lab session where we looked at various tissues freezing.


I'm glad that this little garter has survived his trip, but I'd like to think anyone reading this thread will realise that garters don't survive freezing and takes all the precautions necessary to prevent them facing a similar situation.

[Didymus20X6]

Cool story!

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[ConcinusMan]

So here's the thing: I'm the shipper and no, I'm not plain dumb, really stupid or uncareing.
So, to those of you that feel the need to resort to name-calling without knowing all the facts, please inform yourselves and be a little less judgemental.
Thank you,

Since you were responding to my comment I'll say that it wasn't so much a judgement as it was an observation. Sorry about that last part where I said a person would have to be really stupid. That, I shouldn't have said. And when I said it's just plain dumb to ship them this time of year, I wasn't saying that the shipper was dumb, but rather the action was. We've all done stupid things. Doesn't mean we are stupid.

I think it's been mentioned a lot of times in shipping discussions that those hand warmer type heat sources are a big no-no. Not only do they get way too hot (depending on how much oxygen is available) but they also consume all the oxygen in the box. They literally use it all up so those packs can theoretically suffocate the snake. That's how those work. They work by rapidly oxidizing iron (they generate heat by rapidly rusting iron in the packet) and that consumes oxygen. That's why they don't "activate" until you open the package. The more oxygen available, the hotter they get and the faster they quit working. In other words, in order to not burn the snake up, it would have to be in an oxygen poor environment, (there's even a warning about NOT using them if you're on supplemental oxygen because with extra oxygen present, they'll catch fire) which would harm the snake anyway so, its burn up, or suffocate, take your pick.

For future reference, screw what the recipient says about the temps. Check the national map and look at the lows, not the highs and if you see all that cold (blue) on the map, don't ship. Even in a relatively warm January it's not safe to be shipping snakes at all. December through February should be completely off limits for shipping. Forget about what the temps are.

So now you know. Luckily he didn't suffocate, cook, or show up frozen solid. You lucked out big time on that. As Shannon said, in most forums you would have gotten it a lot worse but we had to give you at least some bit of a hard time about it.;)

Greg, if the snake isn't acting completely normal by now I would say there's probably been some lasting damage/injury. I hope he makes it. Does he seem limp when you pick him up or does he hold his head up normally? Alert and responsive or just kind of lie there?

[Greg'sGarters]

.

So here's the thing: I'm the shipper and no, I'm not plain dumb, really stupid or uncareing. What Greg didn't tell everyone is that I did hold off on shipping for several days because of temperatures regardless of how many texts he sent me trying to convince me it would be fine. Only when the projected temps at both ends allowed for save shipping did I aggree to do so. Yes, maybe I sholud not have shipped him regardless, hindsight is 20/20, but I did the best I could by insulating the box really well and by including a heatpack.
So, to those of you that feel the need to resort to name-calling without knowing all the facts, please inform yourselves and be a little less judgemental.
Thank you,

I would like to confirm this statement to be 100% true. It is not the matter of anybody being stupid other than mother nature. I am not stupid, she is not stupid, nobody is stupid.

[kimbosaur]

Mother nature is not stupid.

[Greg'sGarters]

Everyone is saying that there is no way that he could have been frozen, so I'll assume that he wasn't frozen (although he was stiff, I am sure of that, that was not my imagination). And whether I warmed him up over the course of 2 minutes or 2 days, all that really matters is that he survived. I'm glad that things worked out the way they did, because if I had done something different, I might be saying "hey I got a dead snake in the mail today".

[Greg'sGarters]

Mother nature is not stupid.

Yeah but she can be a real pain sometimes. :p

[thamneil]

Yeah but she can be a real pain sometimes. :p

Or rather we are the pain as we can't seem to get our act together.

[d_virginiana]

Everyone is saying that there is no way that he could have been frozen, so I'll assume that he wasn't frozen (although he was stiff, I am sure of that, that was not my imagination). And whether I warmed him up over the course of 2 minutes or 2 days, all that really matters is that he survived. I'm glad that things worked out the way they did, because if I had done something different, I might be saying "hey I got a dead snake in the mail today".

Well, it does kind of matter... If you run into the situation again, you know not to warm him up quickly. I'm glad he seems to be doing fine, but that is a sign of you getting lucky, not a sign that nothing could have been improved :)

Also, there are other explanations for the way the snake looked/felt on arrival than freezing solid. The snake's muscles were probably tensed or locked in a way that felt strange or lumpy. It's not too much of a leap to think that an animal dying of exposure to cold would have strange posture, but like it's been said that doesn't mean it's frozen. Just wanted to throw out a possible reason you were feeling 'lumps' on his body. It's far more likely that you were feeling the musculature than the actual organs (if you were actually feeling the snake's heart, then you would have had to break its ribs to do so).

[Greg'sGarters]

I never said that I felt his heart. It really doesn't matter because I now just won't order in the cold again :p. And yes, I agree that it probably was indeed his muscles.

[ConcinusMan]

I found a tree frog in my driveway one morning after a freezing rain storm. He was literally frozen stiff. hard as a rock. You could pick him up by the hind leg like he was made of hard plastic and he wouldn't bend or change position at all. Thawed him out and he came to life.:eek:

[thamneil]

Rock hard hey? I bet he was hopping around as soon as he thawed. :p

[d_virginiana]

I found a tree frog in my driveway one morning after a freezing rain storm. He was literally frozen stiff. hard as a rock. You could pick him up by the hind leg like he was made of hard plastic and he wouldn't bend or change position at all. Thawed him out and he came to life.:eek:

Have you ever seen an aestivation gone wrong? They literally look mummified. I've seen a couple cases where they can come back even from that.
Of course, that being said, if they sit in the wrong type of treated water for ten minutes they tox out and die :p

[Greg'sGarters]

I found a tree frog in my driveway one morning after a freezing rain storm. He was literally frozen stiff. hard as a rock. You could pick him up by the hind leg like he was made of hard plastic and he wouldn't bend or change position at all. Thawed him out and he came to life.:eek:

Actually the Gray Tree Frog (Hyla versicolor) actually will freeze completely over for the winter, and then thaw out in spring to breed. It is their way of surviving the cold, harsh winter.

http://www.units.muohio.edu/CRYOLAB/publications/documents/costanzo92.pdf

[guidofatherof5]

I was speaking with Steve Schmidt last night and he told me of a situation he was in. Power was knocked out at his house by a blizzard and he was away at the time. By the time he returned home he had lost a few snakes(non-garters) to the cold but he was able to save many by handling and lightly messaging the heart area. He said in some instances he did this for over an hour on individual snakes.
He just wanted me to pass this along.

[chris-uk]

Steve - Were the snakes he saved actually frozen? Or just very, very cold?

[guidofatherof5]

Very, very cold. Frozen snakes = dead snakes;)

[d_virginiana]

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z92-015#.UQFegydpdo4)

So I found this, and thought it was pretty interesting. Haven't had time to really read through it, but it basically sounds like they have antifreeze mechanisms that protect the organs from freezing, even if some of the water content of their body is frozen. I didn't get far enough to read what the researchers considered 'survival' either; long-term no side-effects, or just regaining consciousness with no major organ failure. Sounds more like something that would help if they got caught out in a frost than a true freeze-survival adaptation like you see in some salamanders though...
Just thought it was interesting and wanted to put it up here!

[guidofatherof5]

Very interesting.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Everyone is saying that there is no way that he could have been frozen, so I'll assume that he wasn't frozen (although he was stiff, I am sure of that, that was not my imagination). And whether I warmed him up over the course of 2 minutes or 2 days, all that really matters is that he survived. I'm glad that things worked out the way they did, because if I had done something different, I might be saying "hey I got a dead snake in the mail today".


A very cold object is going to be much more rigid than one that is warm. Especially a dormant, near death reptile. Have you ever handled a frozen snake? Something tells me you haven't considering you still aren't completely convinced. It's literally the same as handling an icicle. They aren't just stiff, they're hard as a rock. If you hit it off something hard enough it would crack.We are all glad the snake survived, but there is nothing you could have done to prevent his death... nothing you would have done differently in those moments you unwrapped him would have made a difference. You could have laid him on your counter and walked away. He would have warmed up regardless.

[ConcinusMan]

That article might explain how I found a northwestern out on the ground at 22 F (-5.5 C)around sunrise and it survived. I did think it was dead but after warming him up he was fine. He was laying by the opening of a rodent burrow so he probably got evicted by the occupant not long prior to me finding him.

[guidofatherof5]

All of this just proves what remarkable animals they are. "Tough as nails"

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

nobody is stupid.
You may not be stupid and she may not be stupid. But if you were to visit the small town I live in, you would clearly see how horribly flawed that last part of your statement is!! Lol :)
I hope this little one makes it through and goes on to live a long happy life!!

[Greg'sGarters]

I was speaking with Steve Schmidt last night and he told me of a situation he was in. Power was knocked out at his house by a blizzard and he was away at the time. By the time he returned home he had lost a few snakes(non-garters) to the cold but he was able to save many by handling and lightly messaging the heart area. He said in some instances he did this for over an hour on individual snakes.
He just wanted me to pass this along.

That's probably what happened to me then.


All of this just proves what remarkable animals they are. "Tough as nails"

Very true!


You may not be stupid and she may not be stupid. But if you were to visit the small town I live in, you would clearly see how horribly flawed that last part of your statement is!! Lol :)
I hope this little one makes it through and goes on to live a long happy life!!

I used to work in a town called Nutley. NUTLEY WAS FULL OF NUTS!!! That place was nuttier than a porta-john at a peanut festival.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, that's nutty.

[Greg'sGarters]

Wow, that's nutty.

You literally would go outside during night and see at least 5 people talking to themselves and sometimes people would argue with themselves.

[guidofatherof5]

You literally would go outside during night and see at least 5 people talking to themselves and sometimes people would argue with themselves.

and that is bad?:D

[Greg'sGarters]

It was scary. I was 11 and surrounded by schizophrenic people. I didn't know what was going on.

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe they're not schitzo. I talk to myself sometimes if it's the only way for me to get an intelligent answer.:p

[Greg'sGarters]

I never knew you argues with yourself over whether or not they were the one or it was the time. That's the types of conversations I'd hear. :D

[Greg'sGarters]

Unfortunately, Freeze has passed away. He went peacefully in the night. I do feel a slight sense of relief knowing that even after he became a near-vegetable, he didn't have to stay that way for long, and didn't suffer when he passed.

[chris-uk]

Sad news.. Sorry to hear he didn't make it.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry the hear the scrub didn't make it.

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry for your loss :(

[thamneil]

Sorry to hear that. It's important to learn from things like this. This thread may help someone in the future. Props to you for making this.

[Greg'sGarters]

Sad news.. Sorry to hear he didn't make it.


Sorry the hear the scrub didn't make it.


Sorry for your loss :(


Sorry to hear that. It's important to learn from things like this. This thread may help someone in the future. Props to you for making this.

Thank you to everyone for the support!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sorry for your loss.

[indigoman]

Sorry to read this, i thought he was going to make it.

[dsmdavid22]

All The Best , Good job..

[Spankenstyne]

My condolences on your loss.


This thread is a little confusing though as it's quite common to ship in freezing/cold weather in winter, at least up here. Properly packed it shouldn't be an issue, it's much easier to warm up a properly prepared package with the appropriate heat packs than it is to cool one off in the extreme heat of summer.

Sounds like an unfortunate shipping error without proper heat packs and/or packaging, hopefully a tough lesson learned .

You'll notice Reptile Express ships "year round": Terms (http://reptileexpress.com/terms/)
They will ship all the way down to -25*c (incl wind chill). A friend just received a Monkey-tailed Skink shipped across Canada yesterday through -20c without a problem.