Wrong worms?

[CrazyHedgehog]

AAAAgGGGGHHH:eek:
I thought as it was too cold to go digging worms, I got some cheap at the bait shop, I asked specifically for Lob worms, not red wigglers...
I even looked at them in the shop and they looked ok....
fed them, but as I was putting the last few in, I started getting suspicious...:confused:
all worms have some banding, when you pick these up, they are really pale one side, roll them over and they look a bit toooo stripy for my liking.
Is this just down to how they have been kept? or will I lose most of my snakes by morning? :(
8010

[guidofatherof5]

They are at risk as those are red worms. Any chance you can get them to regurgitate?
I would monitor the situation for any signs of trouble.
They may also be just fine. Time will tell.
How many snakes did you feed?
Please keep us posted.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Those sure do look like red wigglers but I wouldn't be rushing to do anything drastic. Truthfully toxins are already being absorbed and to be honest, forcing regurgitation would be rather stressful and if you don't know what you are doing, you will injure or kill the snake.

To be fair, a lot of beginners have fed, and do feed red wigglers to their snakes and never even known it was a bad thing. When I was very young, I did this exact thing! The snakes survived. Actually they showed no sign of illness. I would also get customers at work that would tell me they feed them regularly without a problem and that was the reason they would shrug off my attempts to convince them to stop! BUT I have seen cases where other people's snakes have regurgitated and possibly even died from eating them. They are definitely something to be avoided at all costs. But from now on, at least you know what they look like! And I am hoping that the snakes turn out to be fine for you.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

One thing I can suggest... make sure the snakes have heaps of fresh clean water available! And maybe give them a mist. The more hydrated they are, the better they will be able to deal with what they have eaten.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I got most back out, so only a couple, but the first ones I fed were the San Francisco babies, I cut the worms up over some trout...and I think they have all eaten at least half a worm each!:( It wasn't till I was getting to the end of the tub that they seemed so stripy, am just sat kicking myself now!

[CrazyHedgehog]

In the garden, the red wigglers are really more pronounced stripes, its not till these started stretching out that I noticed...

[chris-uk]

Would it help to get some lob worms into the ones that have eaten this batch? I'm thinking it will push through the digestive tract and also provide more fluid.
I've not been in this situation, but it would seem to make sense to me.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I know 25 years ago when I kept snakes, I would feed all sorts, red wigglers were the easiest to find so they often got those, along with gold fish and frozen whitebait!
I did have a Thiamine problem (snake had a fit, hurling itself round the tank) but after a trip to the vet, a couple of injections later and a regular dusting of powder feeding carried on the same , snake made a full recovery and no more problems....
....
However, never with ones so small!, one is a real fussy eater, and the worms seem to work, ...
I am hoping that the problems occur with excessive build up, and that a one of is not good but won't be too much..
will go digging in the morning and see if I can find any real ones in the snow!

[Greg'sGarters]

If possible, have them regurgitate them now. What I do it I will palpate the snakes to find where the end of the worm is. I will carefully push the worms back out of the snakes mouth, this will work if the worms are barely/not digested. Please keep us updated!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I know 25 years ago when I kept snakes, I would feed all sorts, red wigglers were the easiest to find so they often got those, along with gold fish and frozen whitebait!
I did have a Thiamine problem (snake had a fit, hurling itself round the tank) but after a trip to the vet, a couple of injections later and a regular dusting of powder feeding carried on the same , snake made a full recovery and no more problems....
....
However, never with ones so small!, one is a real fussy eater, and the worms seem to work, ...
I am hoping that the problems occur with excessive build up, and that a one of is not good but won't be too much..
will go digging in the morning and see if I can find any real ones in the snow!

Like I said, I personally have never witnessed a snake dying directly after eating one batch of wigglers. I do believe I have seen other's accounts that the snakes regurgitated after eating, and I think they were babies.... but maybe whether or not the snakes sicken could also depend on what the worms have been feeding on.... certain foods may increase their toxicity! Similar to how captive bred dart frogs are not poisonous.

[Selkielass]

I read an article once where a scientist who had experienced redworm poisoning. In her lab animals said that the toxin is only sporadically produced. You can get dozens of good batches, then suddenly a batch from the same supplier under the same husbandry and conditions, will cause convulsions and death. They had no clue what triggered production of the toxin, so chose to avoid red worms to prevent future loss.

You may have got lucky with this batch. I sure hope they are fine.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I think I left it too late to regurgitate :(
I managed to remove a lot, on closer inspection of the tub, it seems like there are mixed worms, I used the smaller ones for the babies, but still needed to be cut up, One baby seemed to have eaten all of it, one about half and one I managed to get before it had had more than one piece.
The Similis male has had one, got the rest out.
The santa cruz had about one each (3 of them, about 3 worms missing - not sure who ) before I got the rest out,
I got the others before any eaten. but the first ones did not seem as red. so I am hoping, .... :eek:
the snakes all seem fine so far, no puking...no odd behavior...

if its bad....how soon would I know? is there a safe time limit?? ie:'24 hours later and ok, then they will be fine'?
gutted at my stupidity!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If possible, have them regurgitate them now. What I do it I will palpate the snakes to find where the end of the worm is. I will carefully push the worms back out of the snakes mouth, this will work if the worms are barely/not digested. Please keep us updated!

Greg, you sound like you have done this before..... why? No offense but this is terrible advice, especially from someone who hasn't been in this that long. If you do this the wrong way, you risk causing serious damage to the snake's internal organs, breaking ribs, as well as when the worms come up, the snake aspirating on the caustic fluids that come up with it.

Worms break down very quickly. by now they are likely a pile of sticky goo. Which would be really hard for the snake to get out of it's mouth :/

[CrazyHedgehog]

The differences... why I got fooled!
8014 vs 8015
One looks ok, the other not...
This is the same worm!! just flipped over!!:confused:

I had washed and refilled with fresh water less than an hour before feeding, I have left them with fresh trout tonight in the hope it might 'dilute' any nasty effects!
,

[d_virginiana]

Just a tip in the future, if you're not 100% sure on what kind of worm you've got. Kind of squish the worm a bit and get it to move. Red wigglers have that name because they have a distinct sort of thrashing that's a bit different from how other types of worms move. If you compare them once the difference becomes more noticeable.

I've never fed wigglers, but a year or two ago I fed some mice that had been previously offered to my frog (a supposedly non-toxic species who apparently has toxic skin). Both times he regurged within a day. I feel like, especially with adults, that if there is something their body can't handle toxin-wise they are pretty likely to regurge it. I'd be more worried about very little ones.
The suggestion of feeding other foods to the ones that ate the wigglers sounds like a good idea.

[Selkielass]

Wow, that's hard to say...
Throw in the fact that are many species of worms, and its even harder to say.
Steve posted a link to athe nice web page w pics of different worm species, and great lakes worm watch has a key for identification, but it requires counting spiracles and such.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Thanks all, a quick update, all snakes seem fine this morning, YAY!!:D
I am hoping that enough time has passed to be safe!

on a thorough check I also found the 3 missing worms from the Santa Cruz tank under the water bowl ( - damn they move fast!) so got them out too,
the chickens have had an expensive snack this morning!! they like red wigglers!

[kueluck]

Happy to hear all is a-okay. :D Just how long with it take for them to pass that crap out. I know when I feed worms they usually poop in 2 days.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad things are looking better. Thanks for the update.

[d_virginiana]

Good to hear :)