Fitchi or Red-sided

[Greg'sGarters]

I was just recently looking at pictures of Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi and thought that it looked identical to Thamnophis sirtalis parietals. Can anyone tell me what the difference is?

[Stefan-A]

Until someone does the necessary phylogenetic studies, it's based on the fact that they don't look identical. The two subspecies meet and presumably have some overlap in their distribution. My guess is that they're not all that hard to tell apart in that zone.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ive kept kept both parietalis and fitchi and ive noticed they have different head shapes, fitchi more flat and square and parietalis more classic shaped

[ConcinusMan]

I was just recently looking at pictures of Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi and thought that it looked identical to Thamnophis sirtalis parietals.

Not really. It's just that some fitchi's might look very similar to some parietalis' which is no big surprise. Also, you definitely can't always trust the pictures you see on the web as many are flat out wrong on the I.D.

[Greg'sGarters]

Can someone post up pictures explaining the difference between fitchi and parietalis?

[ConcinusMan]

I can post pictures of two different snakes of the same subspecies and point out differences.:rolleyes:

[BUSHSNAKE]

Can someone post up pictures explaining the difference between fitchi and parietalis?
The best approach to this Greg is the hands on approach, both species are available, get them, raise them thatll give you the best answer to "whats the difference" The sirtalis complex is one of my favorites and ive kept concinnus, fitchi, parietalis, infernalis, similis, semifasciatus, sirtalis and pickeringii. Theyre all very similar but they are different. I think chicagos and maritime garters are the weekest members of the group

[ConcinusMan]

It's just that I don't think it would help you Greg, even if we did to that. For example:

Puget (pickeringi)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4504120999_680574bd67_o.jpg

Also a Puget:
http://oi45.tinypic.com/nqd1r5.jpg

[Greg'sGarters]

Richard, thanks to you, I now have a sudden impulse to go and by a blue puget! :p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Richard, thanks to you, I now have a sudden impulse to go and by a blue puget! :p

what you want is a proximus rubrilineatus. but good luck getting one.

[ConcinusMan]

CA fitchi:
http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/tsfitchiflk.jpg

WA fitchi: (sometimes they even lack red or have very little)
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/gallery/data/500/fitch1small.JPG

I think I've made my point about it being useless to point out differences between the two since they vary widely even within the subspecies. Still, I think that anyone who has seen enough of both subspecies would be able to tell the difference.

I still say you're getting way confused because you're looking at photos on the web that aren't the correct I.D.

Here's just one example (and there are thousands to be found). Clearly says CA Red Sided/infernalis but the location is Eugene Oregon. This is not a CA red sided. They don't occur in Eugene Oregon or anywhere in the Willamette Valley. It's really a concinnus. http://www.parfaitimage.com/Reptilia+Amphibia/thamnophis_sirtalis_infernalis.html

[Greg'sGarters]

So my best bet is that, if I want a fitchi, I should buy one from a reputable breeder, who obviously knows the difference?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Or do what I did. Know the difference for yourself, and buy some that were incorrectly labeled at a show as concinnus. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Someone here (can't remember who) recently had a litter or litters of them and they are definitely fitchi. To be honest, if I were to mix them in a container with some of the baby concinnus' I've had, especially the laterally striped ones, it would be tough to tell them apart. But then again, I was looking through some old photos of past litters and some of the high black concinnus babies looked just like some of the pickeringi babies from this year.