Pairings for 2013

[Greg'sGarters]

These are my pairings. I can guarantee that they will be attempted top be bred even though I cannot guarantee that they will breed. That's up to mother nature. This year, I only plan to breed sirtalis subspecies. My male proximus escaped leaving me with 2 breeder females and 1 yearling female. Here is the list:


WC Eastern Male (Brumated) x WC Eastern Female (Not Brumated)
CB Oregon Red-spotted Male x WC Oregon Red-spotted Female poss. low blue
CB Red-sided Male (Narcisse Phase) x CB Red-sided Female (Narcisse Phase*)


Not a lot of pairings this season. Some snakes will be brumated over the summer to produce some winter babies.

*These snakes look different than the normal red-sideds. They contain very little red on their sides that is only visible when their scales are stretched out. These look just like the ones that are found up at the Narcisse Snake Dens in Manitoba, which is why I am calling them Narcisse Phase. Here are some pictures.

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This is one of mine just chilling in my hand, scales not stretched.

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This is what it looks like when you stretch out the scales

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This is a picture of some at the Narcisse Snake Dens breeding.

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This is a picture of one at the Narcisse Snake Dens, you can see here how the upper half of it's body is being stretched, and you can see the red, while you can barely see it on the lower half.

That is why I am calling them Narcisse Phase Red-sideds.

[Greg'sGarters]

What makes these harder to acquire is that it is illegal to take snakes from the Narcisse Snake Dens, so these may be the offspring of illegally captured snakes. This does upset me if their parents or ancestors were illegally captured. However, these guys are CB. If any of you guys are thinking of prices on the offspring, the babies will cost the same or less than normal Red-sideds. :)

Also, I am aware that it is possible to catch these in places other than the Narcisse Snake Dens, but these types of Red-sideds are most famous for the ones found at the Snake Dens so that is why I am naming them after that.

[Invisible Snake]

Some snakes will be brumated over the summer to produce some winter babies.

This doesn't sound like a good idea to me, wouldn't it cause some sort of problems for the snakes? (Psychological, etc..)

[chris-uk]

Your "Narcisse Phase" are what gets called "Northern Garters" in the UK pet trade. :)

[ConcinusMan]

What makes these harder to acquire is that it is illegal to take snakes from the Narcisse Snake Dens, so these may be the offspring of illegally captured snakes. This does upset me if their parents or ancestors were illegally captured. However, these guys are CB. If any of you guys are thinking of prices on the offspring, the babies will cost the same or less than normal Red-sideds. :)

Also, I am aware that it is possible to catch these in places other than the Narcisse Snake Dens, but these types of Red-sideds are most famous for the ones found at the Snake Dens so that is why I am naming them after that.

Tons of these WC red sides end up in Europe every year sold as "northern garter" . Makes me wonder how many die before they even make it to market over there.

[Greg'sGarters]

Oh, wow. What's weird about that is that the person that I bought them from called them northern garters, and I thought that they just meant eastern garter. And I looked at them and knew they were Red-sideds. Do you think I could start selling them as Narcisse phase though?

[Greg'sGarters]

This doesn't sound like a good idea to me, wouldn't it cause some sort of problems for the snakes? (Psychological, etc..)

I don't believe so. If they are CB and given a year off of breeding I don't think that it will cause any problems.

[ConcinusMan]

You can artificially manipulate the 'seasons' your snakes experience, to occur at any time of year. Even opposite of what is going on outside. Many breeders do manipulate the seasons their snakes experience, in order to time litters to be born in early spring instead of late summer. Doesn't matter if it's summer outside, you can make winter for the captive snakes occur each summer if you wish.

With WC snakes I brumate about the same time they normally would the first winter, but bring them out early. The following year, their "spring" has shifted to occur in Jan or Feb instead of April and they adjust to that timing. If I wanted to, I could shift it a bit more every year until their winter occurs in summer.

[Greg'sGarters]

Very true.

[thamneil]

Please don't call these Narcisse Phase! If you do, make it 100% clear that the animals have no lineage. While something way back may have originated from the area, I can guarantee that there is definitely some pollution in the line. I am working with animals from the interlake locality. These are animals that overwinter at the Narcisse Dens. I am trying to get a group of these animals into the U.S. and would hate for any mixup to occur.

By no means am I trying to infringe upon your right to name the animals! Just please do so responsibly!

[Greg'sGarters]

Please don't call these Narcisse Phase! If you do, make it 100% clear that the animals have no lineage. While something way back may have originated from the area, I can guarantee that there is definitely some pollution in the line. I am working with animals from the interlake locality. These are animals that overwinter at the Narcisse Dens. I am trying to get a group of these animals into the U.S. and would hate for any mixup to occur.

By no means am I trying to infringe upon your right to name the animals! Just please do so responsibly!

I shall call them Neil's Narcisse Phase. Lol just kidding, I will sell them as Northern Garters. Are you going to name yours narcisse phase? If you do successfully get some into the US, I would love to own some. Good luck with your project!

[ConcinusMan]

I shall call them Neil's Narcisse Phase.

http://i48.tinypic.com/9772x1.png


Lol just kidding, I will sell them as Northern Garters.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

[guidofatherof5]

When I was at the dens I saw a wide variety of redness.

[Greg'sGarters]

Oh really, I've never been to the dens, just seen pictures, it's definitely on my "To Do Before I Die" list though.

[ConcinusMan]

When I was at the dens I saw a wide variety of redness.

Which is why I'm wondering why call them that. Like any other variety of red sided, the amount of red in the Narcisse snakes varies from quite a lot, to none at all.:cool: There's really nothing unique to snakes from the Narcisse dens that sets them apart from snakes that are not from the Narcisse dens.

You might as well be calling them "striped morph". :cool:

[Greg'sGarters]

I think I'll stick with Northern Red-sided. Something else, does anyone know if Northern is a morph, phase, or just non-genetic regional pattern?

[thamneil]

The name isnt a big deal! The important thing is that whoever is buying them knows that the animals cannot be traced back to that locality. You can call them pineapple unicorn if you'd like to!

I hope my last response did not come off as blunt or disrespectful. I understand that text can sound cold or heartless! I just wouldn't want to cause confusion in the already small group of people interested in these great snakes. These snakes may very well be from Narcisse, but we have no way of knowing.

The animals that I encounter at Narcisse are typically very high in black coloraton with red skin inbetween the scales. Animals with higher amounts of red as well as those lacking red are not uncommon. One thing that makes me sceptical is the fact that the red in these snakes moves to a blue or white closer to the spine. Here in Manitoba, that is the typical look of snakes found out east in the whiteshell region. They also have greater amounts of yellow colouration. If I knew for a fact that your snakes originated here and I had to guess a locality, I would think they were from the Whiteshell.

Whatever they are, they are a beautiful example of this subspecies and I hope you are blessed with a healthy litter.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think it's anything but an added word.

[Greg'sGarters]

The name isnt a big deal! The important thing is that whoever is buying them knows that the animals cannot be traced back to that locality. You can call them pineapple unicorn if you'd like to!

I hope my last response did not come off as blunt or disrespectful. I understand that text can sound cold or heartless! I just wouldn't want to cause confusion in the already small group of people interested in these great snakes. These snakes may very well be from Narcisse, but we have no way of knowing.

The animals that I encounter at Narcisse are typically very high in black coloraton with red skin inbetween the scales. Animals with higher amounts of red as well as those lacking red are not uncommon. One thing that makes me sceptical is the fact that the red in these snakes moves to a blue or white closer to the spine. Here in Manitoba, that is the typical look of snakes found out east in the whiteshell region. They also have greater amounts of yellow colouration. If I knew for a fact that your snakes originated here and I had to guess a locality, I would think they were from the Whiteshell.

Whatever they are, they are a beautiful example of this subspecies and I hope you are blessed with a healthy litter.

Not a bit offensive at all to me. I completely understand that you have been working with a bloodline from the actual site and you do not want the gene pool to be muddied up. Thank you, maybe call I'll them Northern Whiteshell Pineapple Unicorns! :D. Or maybe if I can produce a really nice bloodline, I can call them the Donlan (my last name) Northern Garters or Donlan Whiteshell Garters. What do you guys think I should name them (assuming I can produce a nice bloodline)? Or should I just stick with the Northern Garters?

[thamneil]

And to all of you all who think that these Narcisse garters are no different than the rest, you're all wrong! :p

You have to see it to believe it...

[Greg'sGarters]

And to all of you all who think that these Narcisse garters are no different than the rest, you're all wrong! :p

You have to see it to believe it...

You should start a thread about the ones from your Narcisse bloodlines. I'm very interested to see.

[thamneil]

I really mean to start a thread featuring my collection! I couldn't take a good picture if my life depended on it unfortunately! I'll see what I can do though.

[Greg'sGarters]

What do you think I should name these Northern Garters if I can start a good bloodline?

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a novel idea: How calling them "red-sided garter snake" :cool:

[thamneil]

I wouldn't be sure if you could really create a specific line from two individuals of unknown lineage. They dont really look dramatically different from the everyday parietalis.

[Greg'sGarters]

Here's a novel idea: How calling them "red-sided garter snake" :cool:

I'd be better off just selling them as Northern Garters. They look different than the Red-sideds you find in the central USA, which are more popular than the Northerns, so if I put them up for sale as a Red-sided and someone expected something with more red, they might be a little angered when they saw these.

[Greg'sGarters]

So you guys think just Northern Garters?

[thamneil]

These arent "Northerns". These are red-sided garters, T.s.parietalis. Calling them anything else is pointless and frankly, wrong. Anyone buying this subspecies should be aware that they vary in color.

[Greg'sGarters]

Tons of these WC red sides end up in Europe every year sold as "northern garter" . Makes me wonder how many die before they even make it to market over there.

Your "Narcisse Phase" are what gets called "Northern Garters" in the UK pet trade. :)




These arent "Northerns". These are red-sided garters, T.s.parietalis. Calling them anything else is pointless and frankly, wrong. Anyone buying this subspecies should be aware that they vary in color.

Just going off of what I heard. If they are simply Red-sided garters, no regional pattern involved, so be it. As it stands right now they will just be sold as Normal Red-sideds.

[ConcinusMan]

I just think it would be as meaningless as calling them "striped phase"

[guidofatherof5]

So you guys think just Northern Garters?

Put down for a big NO!

[Greg'sGarters]

I'm not calling them striped phase though. I was thinking about calling them Northern Red-sided Garters because that is what they are apparently sold as in Europe. And please correct me if I am wrong but usually parietalis looks like this in the more northern area of it's range. I would still agree that they are genetically no different that a normal Red-sided.

[ConcinusMan]

So you guys think just Northern Garters?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28763146.jpg

[Greg'sGarters]

It is settled, Red-sideds they are!

[guidofatherof5]

It is settled, Red-sideds they are!

Wise decision.

[ConcinusMan]

Red-sideds they are!

Brilliant observation! :rolleyes:

[Greg'sGarters]

Or maybe Narcisse Northern Pineapple Unicorn Reduced Color Special Red-sideds.

JUST JOKING!

[Greg'sGarters]

Something else guys, I am adding Chicagos to my list, I found a male for my female and if this female produces likeI heard she does, she will produce numbers in the high 30's to low 40's. No special phase, morph, pattern, coloration or anything. Just beautiful normal Chicagos. If you are interested in one, please Skype/PM me. I cannot guarantee these and refuse to take any money until they are born alive and healthy and are eating. All I can do is brumate and pray right now.

[ConcinusMan]

Or maybe Narcisse Northern Pineapple Unicorn Reduced Color Special Red-sideds.

OK, but you forgot to say "striped". :mad:

[Greg'sGarters]

OK, but you forgot to say "striped". :mad:


Fine, I'll hybridize them with northwestern and call them Striped Narcisse Pineapple Unicorn Reduced Color Special Red-sideds! Lol :D

[thamneil]

Oh Greg... Don't make me beat you over Skype again. Polluting all these bloodlines :p

[Greg'sGarters]

Guys, something else, I already showed Neil on Skype last night, Both my female Red-sideds have a checkered like pattern on the underside of their tail. Has anyone ever heard of this occurring?

[guidofatherof5]

Guys, something else, I already showed Neil on Skype last night, Both my female Red-sideds have a checkered like pattern on the underside of their tail. Has anyone ever heard of this occurring?


A photo would be nice.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Agreed!

A photo would be nice.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Chicagos are awesome and very underrated!


something else guys, i am adding chicagos to my list, i found a male for my female and if this female produces likei heard she does, she will produce numbers in the high 30's to low 40's. No special phase, morph, pattern, coloration or anything. Just beautiful normal chicagos. If you are interested in one, please skype/pm me. I cannot guarantee these and refuse to take any money until they are born alive and healthy and are eating. All i can do is brumate and pray right now.

[Greg'sGarters]

Chicagos are awesome and very underrated!

In my opinion they are very beautiful! I am glad that I am one of the few breeders of them. Hopefully I can fulfill a goal of mine this year, get Chicagos to be a little bit more recognized!

[Kantar]

red sided snakes like that are found all over southern manitoba, couple hundred KM from narcisse, it ain't the red sided garters around narcisse that have that certain coloration. I do have a red sided where its red scales are absent and have the white scales there instead.

[Greg'sGarters]

red sided snakes like that are found all over southern manitoba, couple hundred KM from narcisse, it ain't the red sided garters around narcisse that have that certain coloration. I do have a red sided where its red scales are absent and have the white scales there instead.

Yeah, I had just found that out. Honest thread mistake. lol

[Kantar]

we all do it, I thought the red sided I have with white scales were Eastern Plains when I first started on here, here's a picture

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/950_10151309797624359_161698961_n.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

just polymorphism but you know that now. pugets are the same way. some have spotting and bars the same color as the stripe, some of them the spots are pale orange or red.

[Greg'sGarters]

Wow those are some cool garters!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I had a pair but my male died.:( I was hoping to produce some this year too.

In my opinion they are very beautiful! I am glad that I am one of the few breeders of them. Hopefully I can fulfill a goal of mine this year, get Chicagos to be a little bit more recognized!

[Greg'sGarters]

My condolences. :(

[Greg'sGarters]

Just an update to my pairings list. I will also be breeding Thamnophis proximus proximus as well as producing 100% het melanistic easterns.

[Greg'sGarters]

8074

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This is what I am talking about with the checkered/spotted tails on the Red-sideds. You see what I mean? Is this normal?

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like normal patterning to me.

[Greg'sGarters]

These are my first parietalis so I don't know what a normal tail looks like lol

[guidofatherof5]

You have two of them now.

[Greg'sGarters]

You have two of them now.

I actually have 5. 3 normals, 1 triple het (angry, albino, hypo), 1 snow

[ConcinusMan]

Angry? Yeah, I think I've had that morph before LoL

[d_virginiana]

The checkered patterning on the tails looks like what's on my parents' female blackneck. Seems normal to me.


Angry? Yeah, I think I've had that morph before LoL

It's not even exclusive to snakes. I'm pretty sure my frog is angry most of the time too.

[thamneil]

That's just a normal variation. Just like some people have freckles and ordered don't. Doesn't make it a morph! There is an amazing array of variation within this one subspecies.

[Greg'sGarters]

That's just a normal variation. Just like some people have freckles and ordered don't. Doesn't make it a morph! There is an amazing array of variation within this one subspecies.

​Boy, you can say that again!