First breedings of 2013

[Eddie]

I've had a couple of lock ups in the past couple of days. First is a female eastern snow that I paired with a het for silver male. Second is a female melanistic eastern that I paired with a het pied (not proven). The female snow had 17 heathy babies for me last year and this is the mel's first year breeding. I cant wait for my female het for pied to shed!
Good luck to all this breeding season!

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to updates and the eventual scrubs.

[Eddie]

Thanks Steve

[thamneil]

Can't wait to see some babies! Congratulations!

[Invisible Snake]

Congrats!

[ProXimuS]

Hope everything works out. Sounds like some cool pairs!

[snakeman]

Good luck ed. My snakes all locked up a couple Weeks ago.just a waiting game now!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Congrats! I can't wait to see some babies, especially the pieds!!!:eek: I wish you the best of luck in this years breeding season.

[Steveo]

Interesting combinations! I can't wait until this time next year when I'll be ready to start breeding...

[Eddie]

Thanks guys!
Good luck to everyone!

[Greg'sGarters]

Mine will be coming out on February 1st (date still undecided). I can't wait to see what the het pied does with the melanistic! Wouldn't that be crazy if the babies were melanistic pieds?

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Definitely cool pairings. I can't wait to see the cute little babies!!!

[twgrosmick]

Wouldn't that be crazy if the babies were melanistic pieds?

Both genes are a simple recessive. The babies will all be normal 100% het melanistic, 50% het pied (assuming you were dealing with a 100% het pied)

So basically all the snakes will carry the gene for melanism while only half with carry it for pied. I applaud you for trying to work with poss hets. I couldn't force myself to do it having to raise up every single scrub cause there is no way to tell what you are dealing with lol.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see if the melanistic pieds are possible or if the melanistic gene will completely drown out the pied. In ball pythons, what is known as the panda pied (black with pied) is actually the super form of a co-dominant trait. I can't think of a species of any reptile where I have seen a true "melanistic pied" (this is also assuming that the melanism is actually melanistic and not some other form of anery)

[Greg'sGarters]

Both genes are a simple recessive. The babies will all be normal 100% het melanistic, 50% het pied (assuming you were dealing with a 100% het pied)

So basically all the snakes will carry the gene for melanism while only half with carry it for pied. I applaud you for trying to work with poss hets. I couldn't force myself to do it having to raise up every single scrub cause there is no way to tell what you are dealing with lol.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see if the melanistic pieds are possible or if the melanistic gene will completely drown out the pied. In ball pythons, what is known as the panda pied (black with pied) is actually the super form of a co-dominant trait. I can't think of a species of any reptile where I have seen a true "melanistic pied" (this is also assuming that the melanism is actually melanistic and not some other form of anery)

Oh yeah I knew that both were recessive, that's why I said "Wouldn't that be crazy" lol. That would be cool though.

[Selkielass]

Sounds like you could end up with some very cool combos in a few generations. Good luck, I hope you get interesting results early!

[Eddie]

The male is a 100% het pied but as of now as far as I know this is still an unproven trait.

[ConcinusMan]

So basically all the snakes will carry the gene for melanism while only half with carry it for pied.

Not really.

"Second (pairing) is a female melanistic eastern that I paired with a het pied"

All offspring would be "100% het melanistic". But, even if the pied was definitely a het(100% het), all babies would have only a 50% chance of also being het pied. They could ALL be het, or none. It's just that the odds would be 50%. So, babies from this pair would be normal looking, but they would all be "100% het melanistic, 50% het pied". The 50% and 100% doesn't refer to how many of them are het. It only indicates the chances than any one of them is het for melanistic and pied, respectively.

Since you know that one parent is melanistic, the odds of the babies being het for that trait is 100%. But even IF the other parent is a confirmed het, any one of the babies would still only have a 50% chance of being het for pied. They all could be, just one or two, half, or none of them. It's not that half would be het for pied. It's that they would have a 50% chance of being het.

It was my understanding that the trait has been proven to be genetic, and recessive if it's from the same line as Scott's.

[twgrosmick]

Not really.

"Second (pairing) is a female melanistic eastern that I paired with a het pied"

All offspring would be "100% het melanistic". But, even if the pied was definitely a het(100% het), all babies would have only a 50% chance of also being het pied. They could ALL be het, or none. It's just that the odds would be 50%. So, babies from this pair would be normal looking, but they would all be "100% het melanistic, 50% het pied". The 50% and 100% doesn't refer to how many of them are het. It only indicates the chances than any one of them is het for melanistic and pied, respectively.

Since you know that one parent is melanistic, the odds of the babies being het for that trait is 100%. But even IF the other parent is a confirmed het, any one of the babies would still only have a 50% chance of being het for pied. They all could be, just one or two, half, or none of them. It's not that half would be het for pied. It's that they would have a 50% chance of being het.

It was my understanding that the trait has been proven to be genetic, and recessive if it's from the same line as Scott's.

Agreed Richard but for simplicity sake about half will carry the gene and half won't. Scott believes the pied to be recessive but no pieds have been produced from het to het breedings as of now.

[ConcinusMan]

Mine will be coming out on February 1st (date still undecided)

I'm thinking around the same time for my first ones out.

It was my understanding that the good looking pied in the photo with the dollar bill (the one with lots of white) produced normal looking offspring and died.

Scott sounds awfully sure that he will have pieds for sale. Not sure what that means. It's a bit of mystery to me. Don't know if he has offspring from that high white one and has proven they produce pieds, or if his line is from the crappy looking pied on his website, or what. I'm not sure how he comes to the conclusion that it is recessive, AND is sure he will have them available if none have been produced from hets. Doesn't make any sense to me. He seems to indicate that he's proven it to be recessive. You can't do that unless you produce pieds from hets.

Not sure what he's breeding. The babies from that high-white one were perfectly normal and still unproven to be a genetic trait. Those normal babies went for high dollar in spite of it not being a proven genetic trait.

Then I see a pied on his website with barely any white at all and he says he's going to have pieds. How can he know if it hasn't been proven out yet? Or is this just going to be another batch of normals that go for $600 unproven? I thought that already happened. I thought this was going to be the year for CB pieds, not normals that "might be" hets. So, it's proven or it isn't. Which is it?


Scott believes the pied to be recessive but no pieds have been produced from het to het breedings as of now.

Well why is that? What do you mean "believes" ? Based on what? The fact that the first gen offspring look perfectly normal?

Just trying to understand what's going on. Sounds fishy.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Richard, i think the reason why all the breeders who purchased the babies from this high white female pied are confident that they will produce pieds is because of how high white the female was and they feel something that dramtic should be recessive since it has already been proven in other snakes. The reason scott is expecting some this year is because he is one of a few that had both males and females survive to adults so if it is recessive and he is breeding both 100% het male and 100% het females to each other he should produce some pieds this year and prove the pieds out. At least this is what he is hoping for and i can't wait to see some of the babies.

[BUSHSNAKE]

cool pairings Ed.

[ConcinusMan]

Richard, i think the reason why all the breeders who purchased the babies from this high white female pied are confident that they will produce pieds is because of how high white the female was and they feel something that dramtic should be recessive since it has already been proven in other snakes. The reason scott is expecting some this year is because he is one of a few that had both males and females survive to adults so if it is recessive and he is breeding both 100% het male and 100% het females to each other he should produce some pieds this year and prove the pieds out. At least this is what he is hoping for and i can't wait to see some of the babies.

OK. Finally something that makes sense. One thing that's problematic though...

Even if it is truly a recessive inheritable trait, there's still a chance that hets won't produce any pieds. I admit, it's not a very good chance, particularly if the litter is large. The more babies there are, the better chances that at least one of them will be pied but it's definitely possible for the babies to inherit the normal gene from both parents, or the abnormal gene from only one of them, making them look totally normal. Only if this breeding produces at least one pied, will we then really know if it's inheritable.

I guess we'll know soon enough whether or not this pair was just the most expensive normals on the planet. As of right now, it's still totally unproven.

[Greg'sGarters]

I thought he had proven out the pieds already.

[ConcinusMan]

Apparently not since the trait hasn't been reproduced. I think what's going on is that Scott is expecting a litter from his sibling pair. They look normal, but are the offspring of a pied. In order to prove the trait, they need to produce at least one pied but that hasn't happened just yet. And like I said, even if it is inheritable, there's a chance they could still not produce any pieds this year.

[Steveo]

I just don't get the whole pied thing anyway. Who wants a snake with a broken pattern? Some of the pied royals look alright, but the few pictures I've seen of pied garters leave much to be desired.

[Greg'sGarters]

What's crazy is that on his site, if you look at the pieds for sale for preordering, it says that they are sold out. If he can't prove them, he will be in more trouble than a flightless turkey at a shooting range on Thanksgiving.:D

[ConcinusMan]

What's crazy is that on his site, if you look at the pieds for sale for preordering, it says that they are sold out. If he can't prove them, he will be in more trouble than a flightless turkey at a shooting range on Thanksgiving.:D

http://lunachan.net/chat/src/134267137177.jpg

That simply means he's not taking any more pre-orders for them. If none are produced, nor not enough to fill the pre-orders, then obviously people get their money back. Keep in mind he doesn't require full payment up front. It's something similar to what dog breeders do. You can put down a deposit to reserve a pup before they are actually ready to wean.

Also means that if you aren't on that pre-order list already, you can "dream on" about getting one even if they are produced.

I can understand why he would do pre-ordering. It would avoid a major "crunch" when they are born and he'll be busy enough at that time as it is.

For example, last season I was busier than a one-legged man in an *** kicking contest because I had to deal with taking care of all those babies, AND dealing with orders/incoming inquiries, and making deals, answering PM's etc, all at the same time. This caused quite a few hassles, and delayed promised shipping dates too. If I had done pre-ordering, (I have no intention of doing that ever) I could concentrate on just taking care of them, and getting them shipped out.

[Greg'sGarters]

But he majorly advertised the fact that he will have them this year, it's not just about the money, but also the fact that he is advertising them when there is no guarantee.

[guidofatherof5]

But he majorly advertised the fact that he will have them this year, it's not just about the money, but also the fact that he is advertising them when there is no guarantee.

Nothing wrong with that. If he takes pre-orders and it doesn't happen he'll take care of his customers. No different then dog breeders taking pre-orders on dogs that haven't been produced yet.

[ConcinusMan]

Exactly. When you're expecting an overwhelming demand for a finite number of animals, pre-ordering makes sense.

[Greg'sGarters]

I guess so.

[Steveo]

Due to small litters in 2012, I didn't get one of the snakes I had preordered. Scott offered a refund or a credit toward what he had left. I took the credit, paid the difference, and got a pair of something else. Problem solved.

[ConcinusMan]

Well then, no problem to begin with. :cool:


But he majorly advertised the fact that he will have them this year...

Not really. It was never advertised as a fact.


but also the fact that he is advertising them when there is no guarantee.

So? There never is a guarantee that any will be produced (and no guarantee is given other than you will get all your money back or credit) and he has always accepted pre-orders for litters that were reasonably expected. That goes for all his expected litters, even if they aren't new morphs. Getting in early with a pre-order also gives you a significant discount on the price you will pay in the end. That even applies if you're "only" buying say, an anery red sided.

Look, there's a lot of things that Scott says and does that I don't like or agree with, but none of what you are saying is among those things. There's nothing at all wrong with the business end of what we are talking about here. There's no false advertising or anything wrong here.

[Greg'sGarters]

I'm just saying that because of the fact that nothing can be guaranteed, I refuse to take anyone's money until they are born. If someone wants one, all they have to do is ask for one and I will hold it aside for them when it is born. I feel like by not taking their money, I really stress that no promises can be made. Plus with the way that I look at it, someone shouldn't have to give you money for you to hold a snake aside for them especially before the snake is even born.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think the reason he takes a deposit up front is to make sure the customer is serious. You will learn that customers change their minds or get busy and lose interest while waiting on babies to be born so with a deposit you know they indeed want the snake and you don't get stuck feeding all those babies for six months. I have customers every year that call me up and order snakes, but i never take a deposit and by the time the snakes are born some of them don't want the snakes any more so you end up with a good bit of babies that you have to continue feeding until sold and if you produce 200+ babies that can take a lot of time out of your schedule. I think preorders is a great idea because you could have most of your babies sold before they are born so all you have to do is feed them about 3 or 4 good meals and ship. It's like being on a waiting list and if he don't produce enough babies to supply everyone he will refund you the deposit or send you something else because it's a first come first serve basis. You have to put your foot in his shoe for a minute because of demand he produces a ton of babies every year and you don't want to get stuck with a lot of extra mouths to feed.
I'm just saying that because of the fact that nothing can be guaranteed, I refuse to take anyone's money until they are born. If someone wants one, all they have to do is ask for one and I will hold it aside for them when it is born. I feel like by not taking their money, I really stress that no promises can be made. Plus with the way that I look at it, someone shouldn't have to give you money for you to hold a snake aside for them especially before the snake is even born.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I'm just saying that because of the fact that nothing can be guaranteed, I refuse to take anyone's money until they are born. If someone wants one, all they have to do is ask for one and I will hold it aside for them when it is born. I feel like by not taking their money, I really stress that no promises can be made. Plus with the way that I look at it, someone shouldn't have to give you money for you to hold a snake aside for them especially before the snake is even born.
Scott Felzer has been taken deposits on baby snakes for a long time, since he kept other stuff other then gartersnakes...soooo shut up...you dont have to give him a dime if you dont want to.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Ed i know you don't get to post a lot of pics, but if you produce any pieds this year please post a few for us.:)

[Greg'sGarters]

Scott Felzer has been taken deposits on baby snakes for a long time, since he kept other stuff other then gartersnakes...soooo shut up...you dont have to give him a dime if you dont want to.

Ight, I don't want anything negative so lets just agree to disagree.

[ConcinusMan]

Scott Felzer has been taken deposits on baby snakes for a long time, since he kept other stuff other then gartersnakes...soooo shut up...you dont have to give him a dime if you dont want to.

Well! :rolleyes:

"so shut up" LoL. Funny, but not really necessary. Jeez Joe, bite the guys head off why don't you. ;)

[Eddie]

I promise to post pics if I get any baby Pieds this year.

[Eddie]

Hey Joe
If I text you a pic of the het pied female can you add it to this thread?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Hey Joe
If I text you a pic of the het pied female can you add it to this thread?

if you email it to me i probably could Ed

[BUSHSNAKE]

if you email it to me i probably could Ed
oops sorry Ed i dont think that helps you

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ed, PM me if you want, you can text it to me and I will post it for you if you need!

[MasSalvaje]

Ed I wish you the best in your pairings and look forward to hearing about the little ones when they get here. I also apologize beforehand for going off topic from your original post with a bit of a rant.


I'm just saying that because of the fact that nothing can be guaranteed, I refuse to take anyone's money until they are born. If someone wants one, all they have to do is ask for one and I will hold it aside for them when it is born. I feel like by not taking their money, I really stress that no promises can be made. Plus with the way that I look at it, someone shouldn't have to give you money for you to hold a snake aside for them especially before the snake is even born.


NOW ACCEPTING RESERVATIONS FOR 2013 EXPECTED OFFSPRING.

PREPAID DISCOUNT IS 15% THROUGH APRIL 30TH, 2013




We are now accepting prepaid reservations through April 30th, 2013. Starting May 1st, 2013 will begin taking

reservations with no up front monies on a no obligation basis. This means we will take your name, what you are interested in

and will contact you when the babies are born. Prepaid orders will be prioritized over non prepaid reservations. The babies

are expected to be born in May/June 2012. If there's a ?, this means that the price will be determined at birth.

It clearly states "Expected Offspring," Scott also gives a chance to reserve offspring at a later date without a deposit. I see no guarantee or even implied guarantee of anything.

It is interesting how we as humans tend to critique everyone and everything. We want to tell athletes how to perform, coaches how to coach, our bosses how to manage, successful businesses how to flourish or how to do things. There is a reason these people and entities are successful, they are the best at what they do. Scott is one of if not the most recognized garter breeder in the world, love him or hate him he is one of the best at what he does. There is a reason he is successful, he has a knack for getting garters to thrive and he is very business savvy. It takes both of those things to build a strong reputation in the reptile industry, or any industry for that matter. Many people have good business skills, I would say a few people are accomplished breeders and really know what it takes to be successful with large numbers of pairings and massive amounts of babies. The people that genuinely have both skills as far as garters go I can count on one hand. Feedback is a good thing, constructive critisism is an essential part of a good business model, just remember the people at the top are there for a reason.

-Thomas

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am posting these for Ed! The first 2 are the female, and the last one is the male. NICE SNAKES!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/17243704-893C-4864-A6B8-E8E40C7B80FC-320-00000023BBC20EAE.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/2245302C-5855-43C2-A4C1-D11E92529543-320-00000023BD05A1C7.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/8303209E-6572-4FC6-A999-4FA4EC600455-320-00000023BE02ABA0.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.

[Greg'sGarters]

​They look huge and beautiful!

[Eddie]

Shannon, thanks so much for posting the pics for me!

[ConcinusMan]

Puny little things.;)

[Eddie]

These things grow as fast as Florida blues.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well they sure do look the part!!! they definitely have that southern eastern look to them!

[@ndy]

Wow those look great, now i am sad, we don't have those available in SA :(

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sweet!!!

[Eddie]

Does anyone remember where the Pied female was found? I can't remember.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i sure do....Alabama, and Bill told me she bred to an Ohio eastern but who knows about that...he sent me butleri thinking they were sirtalis, he didnt even know he had butlers lol

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe a butleri X pied eastern breeding then? oops!

[Selkielass]

Butlerii cross would never get that big.
Ohio butlers may vary, but much butlers max out around 24 inches, and are slimmer than an average womens index finger.
I think hybrids would probably fall somewhere between, but I don't really know. I find both Butlerii and sirtalis in my area, but I haven't found any I've suspected of being crosses. (Yet.)

[Eddie]

I thought that snake was gravid when caught?

[sirtalis01]

for what i understand she was gravid when caught and die after giving birth all in the same year..

[BUSHSNAKE]

I thought that snake was gravid when caught?
i believe she was found spring of 2010...the babies are from 2011...

[BUSHSNAKE]

for what i understand she was gravid when caught and die after giving birth all in the same year..you might be thinking of the patternless morph that was found in new jersey, the one scott f calls golden

[Eddie]

Thanks for the info Joe

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe a butleri X pied eastern breeding then? oops!


Butlerii cross would never get that big.

I just noticed this. ^^^I wasn't talking about the snake in the pics. I was responding to this:


... Bill .... sent me butleri thinking they were sirtalis, he didnt even know he had butlers lol

But anyway, you know what your posts are lacking lately Joe?

PICS! MORE PICS! Get off your lazy donkey and post some pics!

[Fold]

Good luck with breeding, and keep us updated!