Nebulization of Sick/New Snakes

[Greg'sGarters]

I wanted to start a thread for something I think can REALLY help a lot of people either cure/prevent some Respiratory Infections. Nebulization. Nebulization (for those who don't know what it is) is a way of administering medication through the form of an aerosol/inhaled fog. I feel that it should be done to any new snakes, to kill any possible respiratory infections before symptoms arise and any snakes that have a known respiratory infection. If being done to a new snake, I would recommend doing this right after the snake gets to your house, before it goes into the quarantine tank. If being done to an established snake, I would recommend doing this immediately and after, putting the snake into quarantine and repeating once every 1-2 days and not returning it to the main collection until 3 days after the symptoms have gone away. This is how it is done:

Materials You Will Need:

Zoo Med Repti Fogger
F10 SC Veterinary Disinfectant
Plastic Box (I use the sterilite sweater boxes, the small ones that are about 13" long) with lid
Razor Blade/Box Cutter/Hot Knife; pretty much anything that can cut/melt through plastic
Syringe that measures in cc or mL
Sharpie/Marker
Drill with small drill bit/hot screwdriver; anything that can make holes in through plastic


How To Set Up Your Nebulization System:



Drill/melt ventilation holes in the lid of your box for ventilation. Leave one corner without holes, this is where the fog will come into the chamber.
In the box that the Repti Fogger came in, you will find a tube that hooks up to the fogger for the fog to travel through. Place one end of this on the un-drilled corner of the lid for your box, and using a marker/sharpie, trace the hole onto the lid.
Use your Razor Blade/Box Cutter/Hot Knife to cut out/melt out the hole you just traced. This is where the fogging tube will enter the chamber.
Next setup your Repti Fogger. This is pretty easy, and can usually be figured out on your own. Take the bottle and fill it up with cold water leaving just a little space at the top before the neck of the bottle.
Open up your bottle of F10 SC Veterinary Disinfectant and draw up 2.5cc (2.5mL) of the disinfectant into the syringe. Inject/squirt this into the water in the bottle you just filled up and GENTLY mix by shaking (if you shake the bottle too hard, bubbles will form, not dangerous/problematic just annoying).
Screw the lid on your bottle and put the bottle on your fogger and let the bottle drain until the chamber is full (you will know when the bubbles stop coming).
If you haven't already, hook up the extending tube to the end of the fogger that fog comes out (when looking from the front, it is the right side).
Stick the other end of the tube in the hole you cut/melted out in step 3.
Your Nebulization System should be ready, do a test run before adding any snakes. When the knob is set all the way up, the box should fill up with fog in 10 seconds or less.
This is the final step. Compare your Nebulization System to mine (seen below). If you have ANY questions/doubts PLEASE contact me. F10 SC Veterinary Disinfectant is very powerful and is only to be used in a 1:250 ratio (F10 SC:Water) MAXIMUM.


I use a heavy fog for all garter snakes, except babies. For babies, I set the fogger at the lowest it can go without being off and do that 3 times, in 1 minute increments with 1 minute breaks in between.


This is my Repti Fogger

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This is the fogging tube connected to my box (Nebulization Chamber)

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This is what you should see when the Fogger (Nebulizer) is on high. If you look closely you can see that this is actually producing medicated fog!

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This is my full set up. This is what it should look like when you are finished.

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This is my full set up. This is what it should look like when you are finished.


Once again, I STRESS that if you have ANY DOUBTS/CONCERNS/QUESTIONS PLEASE PM/SKYPE ME!!! Please note that this is NOT a substitute for seeing a qualified reptile veterinarian. This is used to treat/provent mild respiratory infections. If this does not work/help, I urge you to make an appointment with your reptile veterinarian.

I hope this thread helps anyone who has a snake with a respiratory infection, and with luck this may be the magic we have been waiting for!

[guidofatherof5]

Good thread but I hesitate treating healthy animals for a non identified illness. I understand the concept you are purporting but don't like introducing medication to a healthy animal and from what I can see it's a disinfectant.
I don't meant to be the fly in the ointment but not knowing anything about this F10 SC Veterinary Disinfectant I am leery.

[Greg'sGarters]

I agree with you on not treating snakes with medications for a non-identified illness. However this is not a medication, but a disinfectant. It does not do any harm to the lungs of the snake. Plus the instructions say to use a 1:250 ratio, however, I use a 1:500 ratio. It is used by the very reputable Brian Barczyk, who uses a 3:1000 ratio. If you are still leery, you can use a 1:1000 ratio which would be 1/4 the recommended strength. Through working with this stuff, I have inhaled fumes (not purposely, just from working with it) from the pure disinfectant which did not even cause a cough.

[guidofatherof5]

It is a disinfectant being used as a medication;)

[Greg'sGarters]

Actually it is a disinfectant being used as an antibiotic. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Antibiotic are medications;) I certainly would need to do more research on this before I used it.

I did find this.

http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/VETDISINFECTANT.pdf

[Greg'sGarters]

I think that it works great, I had a corn snake that would wheeze louder than a pep rally at a school for deaf kids :D, but 30 minutes in the Nebulization Chamber, no sound at all when she's breathing!

[Selkielass]

I would hesitate to use a disinfectant internally without a vets input.
My son uses a nebulizer for his asthma. Abby and Ziva have, on occasion, been exposed to diffused mist from the nebulizer without visible effects, but we are cautious.
I could see hooking up the nebulizer, with snake specific tubing and cups to a treatment chamber. It would indeed be a very good way to administer medications directly to the lungs.

The reps-fogger is Not a nebulizer.
it is not designed to administer measured doses of medication in a regulated amount of time.
It may be sterilizable...I don't know. What about contaminants and bacterial growth inside a used unit?
In my sons nebulizer the medication is isolated in a sterilizable cup, and only air passes thru the machine and carries the meds into the mask. Mask, cup and tubing are all sterilizable and replaceable.

This looks too much like dumping some poultry antibiotic. Or vicsyou vapo rub into a humidifier, venti g it into a cage, and 'treating' an animal.
It might work, but id be really worried about dose control and contamination.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I think if you look at this for what it is, its a great idea.
Greg is stating it's not to replace a vet, but if you are unable to get to one (the nearest reptile vet is 5 hours away from me) then its a choice you can think about.
Sterilisation?, well I think thats an obvious one if you are treating an ill snake anyway, and at such tiny doses, surely no harm can come of it.
You would not be treating healthy snakes anyway, but ones that you were concerned with thier health,
If it has been tried and tested and has a few good results, you have no other choices....(ie no accessable vet whether its distance or cost) then surely its a chance worth taking and better than watching a snake deteriorate?
:)

[Selkielass]

To clarify im seeing this as an off-label use of medicine or pesticides.
off label use of pesticides has gotten the beekeeping industry into trouble time after time after time.
Dead colonies.
Contaminated equipment wax and honey.
Antibiotic resistant diseases.
Pesticides resistant mites.
Sick families and bad media publicity.

I don't want to see the reptile community subjected to any of this sort of scrutiny, or affected by the negative consequences that have plagued the beekeeping industry and community.
No offense to anyone personally
No individual attacks offered, but off label use of medications and pesticides is a dangerous road.

[CrazyHedgehog]

My apologies, I can see where you are coming from now. I was probably looking from a selfish perspective!

[chris-uk]

I've seen F10 recommended for use in this way a couple of times (one of them probably was the F10 website). I've seen it suggested as a treatment for RI, but I don't think I've seen it recommended as preventative measure.

As a principle, I'd be happy using it to treat an infection (although if one of mine is ill I can get to a vet in 25-30mins). I wouldn't routinely treat an asymptomatic animal though.

[Selkielass]

Sporadic, preventative treatments are a very effective way to select for antibiotic/pesticide/ disinfectant resistant organisms.
beekeeping is a mess today in part because of scattershot, home brewed and only partially effective treatments for disease and mites. Its a dangerous game.
My apologies if I have overreacted or hurt anyone, but I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this issue until my husband asked me a question, and I realized my body was in a full fledged adrenaline pumping panic attack. Intellectually I know its an overreaction, but my body decided to go int full panic mode. I apologize and I hope I didn't allow anything irrational to make it to this discussion.

I believe nebulization could and should be a valuable treatment for respiratory conditions.
I don't believe home brewed, cobbled together treatments are a safe or effective treatment in the long term. You may save a snake, but you set up condition stat will lead, in the long term to treatment resistant organisms. You also open yourself, your family and your collection to exposure to substances in ways that have not been tested, and may have unknown long term consequences.

Experimentation is necessary to develop new procedures and treatments, but I believe it should be done with careful thought and planning, and the mistakes of the past really need to be avoided.

[chris-uk]

Sporadic, preventative treatments are a very effective way to select for antibiotic/pesticide/ disinfectant resistant organisms.

That's probably one of the best points of the thread.

[d_virginiana]

Yeah, I agree... If one of my snakes actually had an infection and I couldn't get them to a reptile vet, I might try that if nothing else had worked, but I definitely wouldn't use it as anything other than a last resort.

[Selkielass]

Thank you.
stepping back now. if specific examples are desired I can point people in the right direction, but otherwise i'll give this thread some space.
Ow. Sorry.

[ConcinusMan]

Actually it is a disinfectant being used as an antibiotic. :D

No, it's a disinfectant being used as an antiseptic. It works by direct contact with microbes that line the lungs. And I have to tell you, using a disinfectant instead of an antiseptic saved my butt and got rid of infections I had, when nothing else worked.

For example... before anyone found a cheap way to make hydrogen peroxide, they used saltwater with chlorine bleach in it, as an antiseptic.

For staph infections of the skin that I have had, peroxide and all other OTC antiseptics were ineffective. The way I got rid of the infections without having to take strong IV antibiotics was, I soaked the infected area in hot, diluted Hexol household cleaner. The key for using a disinfectant as an antiseptic is you have to dilute it heavily. Hexol isn't labeled for this kind of use, but I have to tell you, it worked when nothing else did. Hexol*General Household Cleaner and Deodorant | Walgreens (http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/hexol-general-household-cleaner-and-deodorant/ID=prod2560970-product)

I saw that original video that Brian posted but when I looked into getting the disinfectant, it was unavailable in the U.S. to the general public. Later, when it did become available, it was dang near cheaper by weight, to buy pure gold, than that stuff. I never looked into it again after that.


I think that it works great, I had a corn snake that would wheeze louder than a pep rally at a school for deaf kids http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif, but 30 minutes in the Nebulization Chamber, no sound at all when she's breathing!

If it worked that quick, I think that pure water would have had the same effect.

As far as "research" goes and all that, from what I understand, Brian has been using this method to get rid of mild respiratory infections/illness successfully for a number of years now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it works. It's simple. Direct contact with a disinfectant kills the infection which is lining the respiratory system.

[Greg'sGarters]

I'm not saying that this is a magic fix, but it is sure helpful. I've been exposed to the fog many times, not dangerous. It is actually designed for animals, and correct me if I'm wrong but it can be administered through the air. I learned the trick from Brian Barczyk, one of the most reputable snake breeders around. If he does it, and recommends it, I would go for it.

[Greg'sGarters]

No, it's a disinfectant being used as an antiseptic. It works by direct contact with microbes that line the lungs. And I have to tell you, using a disinfectant instead of an antiseptic saved my butt and got rid of infections I had, when nothing else worked.

For example... before anyone found a cheap way to make hydrogen peroxide, they used saltwater with chlorine bleach in it, as an antiseptic.

For staph infections of the skin that I have had, peroxide and all other OTC antiseptics were ineffective. The way I got rid of the infections without having to take strong IV antibiotics was, I soaked the infected area in hot, diluted Hexol household cleaner. The key for using a disinfectant as an antiseptic is you have to dilute it heavily. Hexol isn't labeled for this kind of use, but I have to tell you, it worked when nothing else did. Hexol*General Household Cleaner and Deodorant | Walgreens (http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/hexol-general-household-cleaner-and-deodorant/ID=prod2560970-product)

I saw that original video that Brian posted but when I looked into getting the disinfectant, it was unavailable in the U.S. to the general public. Later, when it did become available, it was dang near cheaper by weight, to buy pure gold, than that stuff. I never looked into it again after that.



If it worked that quick, I think that pure water would have had the same effect.

As far as "research" goes and all that, from what I understand, Brian has been using this method to get rid of mild respiratory infections/illness successfully for a number of years now. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it works. It's simple. Direct contact with a disinfectant kills the infection which is lining the respiratory system.

100% correct! The thing is that it is a 1:500 dilution ratio I wouldn't directly put this stuff in the nebulizer. It's actually not too expensive if you just buy a little bit of it. 10 mL will treat 5L so that's pretty good right there. And that's exactly how it works it just kills off the bacteria lining the lungs and the water helps to soothe their lungs. It's sorta like putting a humidifier in your room when you are sick.

[Greg'sGarters]

Guys, something else I want to add, this is simply for the benefit of the snake. If your snake is suffering, it's better to give him a little time with this until they can get to a qualified vet.

[guidofatherof5]

I have been very fortunate in that I've never had a snake with a respiratory infection.
I will do some more research on this process and possibly add it to equipment list.
That's for starting this thread.

[Greg'sGarters]

It is sure a useful tool to have on hand. I wish I knew about this with my first garter snake of this year. She had a terrible RI and I thought it had went away so I put her in with another snake, and one day when I was feeding her, I saw and heard mucus in her glottis, and separated her IMMEDIATELY. And Steve, please feel free to share with us what you find in your research of this product. I can't speak for everyone else but I am sure interested myself.

[guidofatherof5]

I just checked craigslist.com and found a couple medical use nebulizers for $20 That's cheaper the the Zoo Med model.
I'm guessing the medical use ones are probably built better.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, but I think you actually have to draw (suck) on those to get the vapor out. I've seen them in use and barely anything comes out until you draw it out with your lungs. The zoo med thing is a fogger for increasing humidity so it puts out a lot of vapor without having to draw it out. And I would think that using a room humidifier, the vapor coming out would be too hot.

[Selkielass]

My sons nebulizer blows a controlled stream of air into a cup that holds medicine. This air stream agitates a stem and ring contraption that vibrates and breaks the liaison medicine into tiny droplets that are carried on the stream of air out up out of the cup and into an attached, vented face mask.

I think the airstream would carry the mist into a hide sized container just as well. There would be less cross venting fas my sons breath does move air through the mask.

[Greg'sGarters]

And don't forget you need to be able to mix this stuff into a liter. The bottle that comes with the zoo med fogger is 1L. And please correct me if I'm wrong with this...I don't believe that a disinfectant would harm a snake (assuming that it is if safe for the snake) even if there are no bacteria. I would not recommend giving medicine to a snake that doesn't need the medicine, but this just sterilizes the lung area of any bacteria (or at least disinfects a good amount of it).

[guidofatherof5]

There is usually some kind of trade off(good/bad) when any chemical is used.

[Greg'sGarters]

This is used for animals though.

[guidofatherof5]

Animal or not there is usually some kind of good and bad in chemicals.

[Greg'sGarters]

Oh, ok do you think you might try it out though?

I got mind from LLLReptile (http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/reptile-medications-mite-sprays-and-cleaners/-/f10sc-veterinary-disinfectant-34oz/)

[guidofatherof5]

If the need arises I may give it a go.

[Greg'sGarters]

Ok, sounds great!

[chris-uk]

And don't forget you need to be able to mix this stuff into a liter. The bottle that comes with the zoo med fogger is 1L. And please correct me if I'm wrong with this...I don't believe that a disinfectant would harm a snake (assuming that it is if safe for the snake) even if there are no bacteria. I would not recommend giving medicine to a snake that doesn't need the medicine, but this just sterilizes the lung area of any bacteria (or at least disinfects a good amount of it).

There will always be some bacteria present, and exposing them unnecessarily to an agent intended to kill them can help develop resistance to the agent.

[Greg'sGarters]

1. It doesn't matter if their bodies are resistant to it or not, it does not target them, it targets strictly the bacteria. Which will be dead

2. 1 or 2 times won't hurt it, this is a temporary treatment until the snake can go to a vet.

[chris-uk]

1. It doesn't matter if their bodies are resistant to it or not, it does not target them, it targets strictly the bacteria. Which will be dead

2. 1 or 2 times won't hurt it, this is a temporary treatment until the snake can go to a vet.

I don't think you understand the principle of resistant bacteria. It's the bacteria that get resistant from repeated exposure (not the snakes) to an agent intended to kill them. Most of the time you will kill all the bacteria, but with each exposure you stand a chance of one of the bacteria mutating and becoming resistant to the agent. That bacteria then flourishes and can't be killed by your first choice agent (in this case nebulised F10) and you will need to resort to a stronger agent.

As a treatment for a symptomatic illness you're correct, a couple of times won't hurt. But as a routine treatment for every snake on arrival it's exactly the situation that promotes resistant bacteria. Also consider that some of the nebulised mist will be escaping from your nebulisation chamber, this exposes bacteria in the surrounding environment to the F10 at concentrations low enough that are less than lethal, perfect for producing resistant bacteria in your snake room.

As a home treatment while you're trying to get a snake to a vet it's a great principle and one I'd use.

[Greg'sGarters]

Ok, yeah. I see how it should not be used as a preventative. You were right. I had misunderstood thinking that you were saying that the snakes were resistant to it.




I don't think you understand the principle of resistant bacteria. It's the bacteria that get resistant from repeated exposure (not the snakes) to an agent intended to kill them. Most of the time you will kill all the bacteria, but with each exposure you stand a chance of one of the bacteria mutating and becoming resistant to the agent. That bacteria then flourishes and can't be killed by your first choice agent (in this case nebulised F10) and you will need to resort to a stronger agent.

As a treatment for a symptomatic illness you're correct, a couple of times won't hurt. But as a routine treatment for every snake on arrival it's exactly the situation that promotes resistant bacteria. Also consider that some of the nebulised mist will be escaping from your nebulisation chamber, this exposes bacteria in the surrounding environment to the F10 at concentrations low enough that are less than lethal, perfect for producing resistant bacteria in your snake room.

As a home treatment while you're trying to get a snake to a vet it's a great principle and one I'd use.

[ConcinusMan]

Brian uses it only when snakes show symptoms of RI and it's not just until he can get them to a vet. He says that it in many cases it cures the problem. Only IF it doesn't, does he then seek vet treatment. Watch it yourself at 2:48


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCnPfuqaBM

What I was saying about that stuff before is that when I tried to look online to buy it, it was going to cost me around $100 to get the smallest container and of course I would also have to buy the fogger. I know it doesn't take much of it but that just seems rather expensive. I've only had one snake sick with RI in about 25 years so it's not like I need to invest in this. I can understand it if you have a large collection and see RI's more often. Then it has the potential to cure some RI's and save on the vet bill. Anyway, baytril (oral suspension) cured the problem in my case. The snake is fine.

[Greg'sGarters]

Oh, yeah that's where I got the info from - that video. Ok, so now that I have been corrected, I will officially state that it should only be used on sick snakes. Thank you everyone for your input.

[ConcinusMan]

Not only that, once you start treatment, you need to continue it. Don't just do it once or twice. Do it every day, (if not twice a day) for 10 days in a row.

This is why they tell you not to stop taking antibiotics before they are all gone, and don't skip doses. Because if you don't kill all the bacteria, the resistant ones will have time to pass that resistance onto the next generation, and as you know, a generation for bacteria doesn't take long. Way too many people fail to take all their antibiotics, fail to take them as prescribed, or indiscriminately take other people's antibiotics, and then not even a full course of them. Those are the people you can blame for the resistant strains we're dealing with these days.

I would say that this nebulizer idea is OK but only do it for snakes with minor RI's that have symptoms, and above all, don't stop after a couple of treatments, or just 3 or 4 days. Even if it doesn't seem to be working, I would do it the full 10 days anyway. Don't even start doing it if you're not going to do it every day and follow through for the full course.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

A healthy snake will deal with bacteria on it's own as hydrolytic enzymes get the job done just fine ;]

[ConcinusMan]

There are times when immunity might drop just briefly for unknown reasons or for example, when it happened to one of my snakes, it happened after she got gravid. Can also happen if the immune system is fighting off something that is asymptomatic such as a virus. Once the bacteria get the upper hand, that's it. Doesn't matter if the snake is otherwise healthy, they're going to need some help to tip the balance back where it should be and that's what baytril does. It doesn't kill the bacteria at all. It just keeps it from reproducing at a normal rate, if at all. That allows the snakes immune system to catch up and kick the infection. I'm sure this would do something similar. Keeps the numbers way down, tipping the balance in favor of the snake.

Most cases of RI are just common bacteria that normally wouldn't harm the snake. It's just when something stresses the immune system, the bacteria get the upper hand. In my case, the RI wasn't contagious at all. It was just common bacteria. Completely harmless to a healthy immune system. She just needed the baytril to give her the upper hand on it again. She went on to live just fine and didn't get another RI and none of the other snakes that were housed with her got sick.

I went through something similar myself. I had just gotten over a long and nasty cold and was feeling better. Then all the sudden (like overnight) I came down with pneumonia, was coughing up blood , 104.7 F fever, and I almost died. The bacteria responsible was completely harmless under normal circumstances, and it wasn't contagious. It just got the upper hand because I was fighting off that cold virus.

[Selkielass]

Staph is a normally harmless bacteria carried on peoples skin and noses, but thanks to long term use and misuse of antibiotics and antibacterial solutions highly resistant strains have developed. You can now pick up the MRSA in gyms and s hooks.
You don't cure flesh eating bacteria infections with anti bacterial cleaner, and use of anti bacterial cleaners for too short a period of time or at insufficient concentration has lead to decreased effectiveness of these cleaners.

Mucus protects the lungs. It can also protect bacteria from improperly delivered antibacterial and antibiotic substances. This is risky chemistry.
Discovery Health "Should antibacterial soap be outlawed?" (http://health.howstuffworks.com/skin-care/cleansing/myths/antibacterial-soap-outlawed.htm)

[Greg'sGarters]

Not only that, once you start treatment, you need to continue it. Don't just do it once or twice. Do it every day, (if not twice a day) for 10 days in a row.

This is why they tell you not to stop taking antibiotics before they are all gone, and don't skip doses. Because if you don't kill all the bacteria, the resistant ones will have time to pass that resistance onto the next generation, and as you know, a generation for bacteria doesn't take long. Way too many people fail to take all their antibiotics, fail to take them as prescribed, or indiscriminately take other people's antibiotics, and then not even a full course of them. Those are the people you can blame for the resistant strains we're dealing with these days.

I would say that this nebulizer idea is OK but only do it for snakes with minor RI's that have symptoms, and above all, don't stop after a couple of treatments, or just 3 or 4 days. Even if it doesn't seem to be working, I would do it the full 10 days anyway. Don't even start doing it if you're not going to do it every day and follow through for the full course.

Great advice, thanks! Never knew that!


A healthy snake will deal with bacteria on it's own as hydrolytic enzymes get the job done just fine ;]

But this is for snakes that cannot fight off an RI infection on it's own ;)

[Faunaofthenorth]

I can verify that the fogger is a vet approved method of inebulization.... it WILL help to get rid of an RI... I go see a herp vet with a PHD and recently I started to rescue both redbelly and garter snakes from the golf course I work at... we use an evaporation inhibitor on the grass to retain more water and it creates a thick fungas infected fog that seems to destroy the snake populations... every one I have found has saggy eyes, popping and weezing when they breathe... and recently one infection spread most likely from my clothes or me handling them after being exposed to that air...and it got most of my other snakes sick even though they were never in the same room.... it may have just come from the course itself.... or me...
he stated that the fogger is essentially the same and the f10 is an approved chemical in successfully treating RI in reptiles.... if used properly.... he trusted that I knew what I was doing... which I did and I do haha