Group shot 2012 holdbacks

[BLUESIRTALIS]

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here is a group shot of some of my 2012 holdbacks.

[guidofatherof5]

I can see why they are holdbacks. Beautiful.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

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here is some more pics.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks steve! They sure do take a lot of work.
i can see why they are holdbacks. Beautiful.

[BUSHSNAKE]

nice holdbacks the similis are the bomb, theyve become one of my favorite species!!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks joe! I love similis too those lateral stripes just stand out.
nice holdbacks the similis are the bomb, theyve become one of my favorite species!!

[ProXimuS]

Quite the compilation you've got! So cute:)

[thamneil]

Very nice collection of holdbacks!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

great group! looking at that little pile of hungry mouths, makes me really glad that I no longer have that many. When I had like 150 thamnophis adults, plus babies..... OH MY GOD! My daughter would not know who I am because I would still be feeding snakes. always. forever. I've got 2.1 obscurus, 2.2 eques scotti, 1.2 mel sirtalis, 2.0 cyrtopsis ocellatus, and 0.1 Banana. (big loveable amel radix girl) I have female blacknecks coming for my males this season, ... and another obscurus female would be nice. We are going to hook Banana up with a red male.

[katach]

Can we get a single shot of the albino looking one in the top right corner? So awesome!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

At a glance it looks like a dirty "snow" eastern! Weird little buggers those are! Colored like a worm.

[ProXimuS]

I like that one:)

[Greg'sGarters]

Beautiful holdbacks!

[thamneil]

great group! looking at that little pile of hungry mouths, makes me really glad that I no longer have that many. When I had like 150 thamnophis adults, plus babies..... OH MY GOD! My daughter would not know who I am because I would still be feeding snakes. always. forever. I've got 2.1 obscurus, 2.2 eques scotti, 1.2 mel sirtalis, 2.0 cyrtopsis ocellatus, and 0.1 Banana. (big loveable amel radix girl) I have female blacknecks coming for my males this season, ... and another obscurus female would be nice. We are going to hook Banana up with a red male.

I don't mean to hijac this thread... But I'd love to see some pictures of your snakes Shannon. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Look no further than flickr. ;) Not much garter pics there though. "view profile, find latest started threads" works too. That yields a lot of her pics that are already posted here.

Flickr: asnakelovinbabe's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/asnakelovinbabe/)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I will take a pic of the snow alone and post it for you as soon as i get a chance.
can we get a single shot of the albino looking one in the top right corner? So awesome!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks everyone! Shannon they do take a lot of time, but it will be worth it in the long run. My son is now six so he spends a lot of time in the snake room with me. I look forward to seeing some more of your pics as well!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The cool thing about all the normal looking babies in this group is that they have the potential to produce a new (anery/axanthic?) Eastern and a new snow strain if it proves out. Here is the pics of the parents. The father is an albino fl. blue eastern.

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[ProXimuS]

Weirdish question...Can you breed a Florida blue Eastern with another type of Eastern, like say a normal or a Chicago, since they are all T.s. sirtalis?

Edit: I guess my real question is, is the Florida blue more like a morph?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Weirdish question...Can you breed a Florida blue Eastern with another type of Eastern, like say a normal or a Chicago, since they are all T.s. sirtalis?

Edit: I guess my real question is, is the Florida blue more like a morph?
Florida blues are a locality.But its best to keeps the line pure as itd just dilute the blues.oh and Chicagos are a subspecies (T.s.semifasciatus) ;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The florida blue easterns can be bred with any easterns. As long as it's thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis it's ok. The reason most people call them fl. Blues is because some locales in florida have nice blue easterns however most eastern garters from florida are now being labeled as florida blues in the pet trade. Now keep in mind that there is also a florida blue striped garter (thamnophis sirtalis similis) which shouldn't be bred with easterns in captivity even though it does happen in the wild in certain areas of florida. A chicago garter is a different subspecies.

[Invisible Snake]

How many holdbacks did you end up with?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

36 but i may be parting with a few in a trade to get more holdbacks.:rolleyes:

[ProXimuS]

Isn't there a Chicago Eastern, or am I making stuff up?

[guidofatherof5]

Isn't there a Chicago Eastern, or am I making stuff up?


T. s. semifasciatus (Chicago garter snake)

[ConcinusMan]

"Eastern" is T. sirtalis sirtalis. "chicago" is a specific subspecies of T. sirtalis, just as "oregon red spotted" is another subspecies. It's either an eastern or a chicago. Can't be both, but both are T. sirtalis. Confused yet?:p

[ProXimuS]

Yea I get all that but for some reason I thought there was a Chicago Eastern also......Too many snakes only so much memory space :p

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I lost 1 of the little snows that i had last night. He was a runt and i figured he wouldn't make it to be an adult so i just kept him for a pet. He was 7 months old and only 4" long. I think something was wrong internal. I named him tiny because no matter how many times he ate he would never grow. I picked up some snakes from mike that are awesome! I got the pair of black bellied garters that he picked up off scott with the melanistic male and they have been breeding for me so fingers crossed.

[guidofatherof5]

I lost 1 of the little snows that i had last night. He was a runt and i figured he wouldn't make it to be an adult so i just kept him for a pet. He was 7 months old and only 4" long. I think something was wrong internal. I named him tiny because no matter how many times he ate he would never grow. I picked up some snakes from mike that are awesome! I got the pair of black bellied garters that he picked up off scott with the melanistic male and they have been breeding for me so fingers crossed.

Sorry to hear about Tiny.
Please keep us posted on the T. m. melanogaster (Mexican blackbelly garter snake)
Hope I got that right.:D

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think the ones i have are thamnophis melanogaster canesecens. The melanistic is awesome!

[guidofatherof5]

I think the ones i have are thamnophis melanogaster canesecens. The melanistic is awesome!


Sorry.

T. m. canescens (Gray blackbelly garter snake)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I don't know this species real well, but i think the only captive bred black bellieds avail in us collections at this time is the canescens. Maybe joe or scott will chime in on this. I also think that the male melanistic may be the only captive bred melanistic canescens in us collections. Correct if im wrong but i'm not very knowledgeable on melanogasters. I do know that they are very cool thamnophis and have a very glossy look to them. The ones i have mike purchased from scott felzer and if i had to guess they probably originated from steven bol's collection.thanks mike!

sorry.

T. M. Canescens (gray blackbelly garter snake)

[ProXimuS]

Oooh Pictures, pictures, pictures!

[chris-uk]

Oooh Pictures, pictures, pictures!

Emily, take a look at the pics and information on Steven Bol's website:
Thamnophis melanogaster canescens - Steven Bol Garter Snakes (http://stevenbolgartersnakes.com/species/thamnophis/melanogaster-canescens/)

Steve Bol is the first stop for information about Mexican garters.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Steven Bol Just described a new subspecies from Mexico...VERY COOL STUFF

Unfortunatly Scott Felzer has driven the price into the ground of his Mexican Garter species before they even had a chance to become more popular in the U.S. Pretty sad in my book cuz theyre wonderful animals.

[ConcinusMan]

Who says they were destined to become popular in the first place? Just trying to figure out how he had anything to do with driving the price down.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's some interesting info. with regards to this species.
The following info. is from the IUCN website.
Here is a link to the web page.
Thank you Steve Schmidt for this info.
Thamnophis melanogaster (http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/full/63982/0)

Justification:
The species is listed as Endangered because it has suffered a population reduction of at least 50% in the past 10 years, inferred from destruction of its freshwater habitat due to agricultural and industrial water pollution. This trend is ongoing.

[mikem]

Good luck with those guys Shawn! :cool:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks mike!


good luck with those guys shawn! :cool:

[BUSHSNAKE]

Who says they were destined to become popular in the first place? Just trying to figure out how he had anything to do with driving the price down.
I know Scott doesnt want to see any of his animals from his bloodlines being sold for half of what they go for...and thats all i got to say Richard

[Invisible Snake]

It all comes down to supply and demand.

[BUSHSNAKE]

It all comes down to supply and demand.
just so i know i wasnt the only one who feels this way i contacted the person that they came from and he agrees with what i said..

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think there would be a higher demand for red and melanistics ones. The greenish might not be real flashy or eye candy but they are very neat snakes to work with. I enjoy the pair that i have and hope to get some red ones in the future! The melanistics are jet black and look awesome!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

oooh pictures, pictures, pictures!

Here is a pic of the male! It's not the best pic it was taken on my cell phone.:rolleyes:

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[ConcinusMan]

I know Scott doesnt want to see any of his animals from his bloodlines being sold for half of what they go for...and thats all i got to say Richard

But you said HE drove the price down. And what difference does it make what he (or any breeder) wants. That's perfectly reasonable and fair market practice. If I want to sell my snakes from your blood lines then obviously I'm going to have to charge less or they won't sell. I was going to say the same thing to Shannon. She mentioned that it ticks people off when they invest in your snakes when the price is high, then a year later you drop the price to half. Well I say, that's just tough ****. There's no guarantee prices will go up or remain the same and nobody should assume they will. If I produce a lot and they aren't selling I'm going to cut the price. That's just how it works and to anyone who would get ticked off about it well tough titty as far as I'm concerned.

I know that dog breeders feel the same way. They'll usually spay or neuter champion bloodline pups though so they won't be used later to compete with them in shows. Guess you can't really do that with garters though, so if you're going to be in the garter business it's just something you're going to have to accept so whaaa. Call the whambulance. Maybe if this works to drive prices down, the price was inflated to begin with.

OK, rant off.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/breeding/8065d1358978031-group-shot-2012-holdbacks-0115131744-3-.jpg

Wow that's really black. Gotta get me a melanistic soon but I'd like to make it northwesterns if I can manage it.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think there would be a higher demand for red and melanistics ones. The greenish might not be real flashy or eye candy but they are very neat snakes to work with. I enjoy the pair that i have and hope to get some red ones in the future! The melanistics are jet black and look awesome!

well its just you and me with those so lets do them right...pm me your number:)

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think there would be a higher demand for red and melanistics ones. The greenish might not be real flashy or eye candy but they are very neat snakes to work with. I enjoy the pair that i have and hope to get some red ones in the future! The melanistics are jet black and look awesome!
i like my green ones as much as my red ones, i have a male thats an emerald color....hes awesome, the ones from Scott seem more grey

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I like the green ones too! I want some of the stripeless ones. I was talking about the greens would probably be less popular than the red and black ones.

i like my green ones as much as my red ones, i have a male thats an emerald color....hes awesome, the ones from scott seem more grey

[BUSHSNAKE]

I like the green ones too! I want some of the stripeless ones. I was talking about the greens would probably be less popular than the red and black ones.
Ill just keep mine if theyre "not popular" lol...theyre small enough for me to keep a hundred of them

[BUSHSNAKE]

But you said HE drove the price down. And what difference does it make what he (or any breeder) wants. That's perfectly reasonable and fair market practice. If I want to sell my snakes from your blood lines then obviously I'm going to have to charge less or they won't sell. I was going to say the same thing to Shannon. She mentioned that it ticks people off when they invest in your snakes when the price is high, then a year later you drop the price to half. Well I say, that's just tough ****. There's no guarantee prices will go up or remain the same and nobody should assume they will. If I produce a lot and they aren't selling I'm going to cut the price. That's just how it works and to anyone who would get ticked off about it well tough titty as far as I'm concerned.

I know that dog breeders feel the same way. They'll usually spay or neuter champion bloodline pups though so they won't be used later to compete with them in shows. Guess you can't really do that with garters though, so if you're going to be in the garter business it's just something you're going to have to accept so whaaa. Call the whambulance. Maybe if this works to drive prices down, the price was inflated to begin with.

OK, rant off.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/breeding/8065d1358978031-group-shot-2012-holdbacks-0115131744-3-.jpg

Wow that's really black. Gotta get me a melanistic soon but I'd like to make it northwesterns if I can manage it.
why yes i did, i said HE lol

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Either way i plan to work with all of them.

ill just keep mine if theyre "not popular" lol...theyre small enough for me to keep a hundred of them

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Just wanted to post an update on my pairings!

Anery eastern sperm plugged
stripeless similis sperm plugged
normal light colored eastern sperm plugged
all the rest are unknown as of yet. Not all garters get sperm plugs in a successful mating.

[Invisible Snake]

Just wanted to post an update on my pairings!

Anery eastern sperm plugged
stripeless similis sperm plugged
normal light colored eastern sperm plugged
all the rest are unknown as of yet. Not all garters get sperm plugs in a successful mating.

Congrats! Are the sperm plugs visible on the female? If so how long after mating do they remain visible on the female?

[guidofatherof5]

Copulatory plugs are visible but not used in all matings.
I don't know how long they remain effective but I did find some related articles on the subject of copulatory plugs.

Copulatory plugs, restricted mating opportunities and reproductive competition among male garter snakes (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v267/n5609/abs/267345a0.html)

Stimuli influencing mating behavior in the garter snake, Thamnophis radix - Springer (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00354976?LI=true)

Sperm transport and storage and its relation to the annual sexual cycle of the female red-sided garter snake,
Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis - Halpert - 2005 - Journal of Morphology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmor.1051740204/abstract)

[Greg'sGarters]

I have a female that I had caught in October, with a sperm plug in her. I had kept her out of brumation, hoping that she would give birth, but she never did, so I am going to put my brumated male in with her and see what happens this season.

[ConcinusMan]

I've never seen a sperm plug in any of my snakes. The female's vent just looks "wrecked" and well used for a few days after mating.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

After 3 or 4 days it isn't visible anymore. All of my snakes don't get plugged but some of them do.
congrats! Are the sperm plugs visible on the female? If so how long after mating do they remain visible on the female?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

update! All of my babies are doing great and growing fast most of them are now eating 2 or 3 whole pinkies per feeding!

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[BLUESIRTALIS]

851585168517A few more!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

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[BLUESIRTALIS]

Blue phase concinnus! It's hard to tell in the pics, but the little concinnus is faded out so i am hoping that she turns more blue! The mother of this little girl was blue!

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[mikem]

Great shots man! Those babies are looking great! :cool:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks Mike!
Great shots man! Those babies are looking great! :cool:

[Invisible Snake]

update! All of my babies are doing great and growing fast most of them are now eating 2 or 3 whole pinkies per feeding!

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Great looking holdbacks!

Can you identify these specific morphs for me?

Also the reddish looking 1 in the bucket, is that a snow, if so what kind?

[ConcinusMan]

Looks like that one might be a snow eastern to me Tony. (not white because it's melanistic + amelanistic/albino instead of anery or axanthic + albino). I don't understand one bit why they ever called that type of eastern a "snow" because it's not.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

First one is from my anery eastern x my florida albino!
Second is a schuett snow ( aka dirty snow or as already stated albino x melanistic)!
Third is baby albino Fl. blue easterns the parents came from Tom Dickinson!

Thanks for the reply!


Great looking holdbacks!

Can you identify these specific morphs for me?

Also the reddish looking 1 in the bucket, is that a snow, if so what kind?

[ConcinusMan]

Looks very promising and heck, even if this one doesn't change anymore at all, it's obviously not normal and is really good looking as-is.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/breeding/8523d1365179412-group-shot-2012-holdbacks-shawns-pics-3-184.jpg

[BLUESIRTALIS]

9472 I thought I would share this pic! This is 2 of my favorite holdbacks!

[guidofatherof5]

Those would be mine also. Beautiful.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

9473Here is one of my little Goldens from Scott! Sweet little Gems!

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.

Tank wants to swim in your pool.:D

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Tank is welcome anytime!
beautiful.

Tank wants to swim in your pool.:d

[guidofatherof5]

Tank is welcome anytime!

Not sure the filter will like him.:eek:

[mikem]

Nice holdbacks :cool:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks mike!
nice holdbacks :cool: