Petco Animal Cruelty

[Greg'sGarters]

I just saw a video on YouTube. Petco is now on my dislike list. A man from a local animal rescue was searching through Petco's trash for supplies when he found a live iguana THROWN OUT!

WARNING THIS VIDEO CONTAINS HIGHLY EXPLICIT LANGUAGE DO NOT WATCH IF SMALL CHILDREN ARE AROUND/YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_p969U0eSA

[snake man]

This is horrible and something should be done. But only so much can be done.....

Edit: I am glad the iguana was ok. It is things like this that make me so angry, mostly because it is so hard to stop and there will always be people who don't get it..

[Greg'sGarters]

This is horrible and something should be done. But only so much can be done.....

I had read the description of the video, and this is what really angered me. He tried to file an animal cruelty charge against Petco, but it never went through because apparently, down there, animal cruelty charges do not apply to exotic pets - only domesticated ones like dogs, cats, horses etc... :mad:

[snake man]

That should be fixed, that is really stupid.

[Greg'sGarters]

That should be fixed, that is really stupid.

It really should be!

Something else, why does Petco even have Iguanas in the first place? Iguanas are not for beginners and anyone who is experienced enough to keep an Iguana would not be buying their reptiles at Petco!

[snake man]

That is true anyone that does any research on a pet before getting one will know to buy from a breeder.

[ConcinusMan]

There's already a thread about that video somewhere on the forum.

[Greg'sGarters]

How about this Petco video?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sUCr_GfvcM

[ConcinusMan]

OMG :eek:

[Greg'sGarters]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6wlTKcacg

That tank is just a little smaller than your average 10 gallon tank.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't see a damn thing wrong here other than it's a little dirty. Petco will be the first to admit that these aren't suitable for long term housing. They know that. And that's why they don't keep any one animal in the store for more than 30 days or so.

Not trying to defend Petco here but it seems like some people are going in there an nitpicking everything and looking for the slightest problem so they can blow it out of proportion. If you were familiar with their herps section 10 or so years ago you would see that they have improved 100 times over. Did they eliminate every possible problem? Are they perfect? No, but they aren't so bad these days.

[guidofatherof5]

I was surprised to see 5 adult male checkered for sale at my local Petco. All seemed to be in good health and were mite free. One male seemed to have some bug eyedness to him but all-in-all they looked good. $29.95 each. They were feeding night crawlers and he said they had been given goldfish at first to get them eating. I cautioned him about the goldfish issues and he said he won't feed anymore. I also saw a couple crickets in the cage. He said some other employee must have put those in. He knew garter don't eat bugs.
Those are the first garters I've seen for sale in my town.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

just an FYI.... It is largely believed by many that this iguana was planted by the person who took this video.... who apparently has had some issues. I'm not saying if they did, or they did not... there is no way to know.... but that was the general consensus I was able to gleam off a looooong thread about it.

I'm not at all for peto carrying iguanas though and it wouldn't surprise me if this happened...

[ConcinusMan]

They flat out don't carry them around here for several reasons. The main one being that they almost always end up running loose, released, neglected, and they fill up the rescue centers. Nobody can seem to follow through with the commitment when they buy a baby iguana so petco (and a lot of other pet stores) just quit selling them here and I thought that decision was nation wide and at the corporate level. Apparently not. Corn snakes have the same problem but they haven't stopped selling those.:rolleyes:

[Greg'sGarters]

My former manager once told me a story about how she used to work at Petco. One day while she was leaving work, she saw some tanks that were in good condition, that were by the dumpster. They were going to be thrown out. She decided that she could use them and took them. One of the employees noticed this and reported her to corporate who almost fired her!

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about any other company, but I think that it's in most company's policy. Those cardboard tubes I used for my snakes.. the one in the photo contest... they were in the garbage too but that's not the point. We must have permission from a manager to take even garbage. I had to ask permission to take a couple of them. Until it gets picked up, it's still company property. And sometimes they throw away promotional items such as T-shirts, pens, etc. when the promotion ends. By law, they are supposed to be destroyed or disposed of. They can't let you take them. Yes, I know, wasteful, but that's America for you.

The company can get into hot water over the tanks because they were probably credited for them if they were defective. Furthermore, the defect might be a safety issue. And lastly, it's stealing.

[Greg'sGarters]

But they were perfectly good tanks. And had no one ever told on her, no one would have ever even noticed. Why should they care if they were going to throw it out? Once I throw stuff in my trash, I don't really care who takes it.

[kimbosaur]

It's the same in retail. I work part-time at a big clothing chain and sometimes they'll deem an item "defective" and we're required to shred them up (even if it's not a safety concern) because they're afraid people will find them in the garbage.

[Greg'sGarters]

I still think that it's messed up that once someone throws a live animal away, that they get mad at the person who tries to save it from sizzling inside a mesh bag to death.

[ConcinusMan]

But they were perfectly good tanks. And had no one ever told on her, no one would have ever even noticed. Why should they care if they were going to throw it out?

I told you why. They may very well have been good tanks but they could still be part of a lot that was recalled or otherwise the store was credited for them for some reason. They can't sell or even give away items they've been credited for. They're required to destroy or throw them away. It's the law.

[Greg'sGarters]

Wow.

[Stefan-A]

Can't even dumpster dive over here without permission, according to city ordinance. Apparently how much money the waste collection company gets depends on the amount of waste they handle and if you remove waste from a dumpster, they practically consider it stealing. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Can't even dumpster dive over here without permission, according to city ordinance. Apparently how much money the waste collection company gets depends on the amount of waste they handle and if you remove waste from a dumpster, they practically consider it stealing. :rolleyes:

It IS stealing here and people have been prosecuted. They tend to overlook taking things from the garbage, but people have been prosecuted for taking recyclables from the curb. Once it goes to the curb, it belongs to the company that pics it up and it's considered theft if you intercept it.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

It seems common sense isn't common at all...

[d_virginiana]

A lot of people get around that where I used to live by putting recyclables and 'trash' items (like old furniture or appliances or whatever) out in their yard for a few days. There's like a week time limit that something has to be there before the city can do anything to make them get it out of their yard. It's just communally understood that if something is sitting out like that it's for people who want to pick it up.

[Stefan-A]

It seems common sense isn't common at all...
It's both common and incredibly overrated. If you ever hear someone say "It's just common sense." you can pretty bet the farm on it being completely and utterly wrong. The same thing applies to the phrase "It's self-evident."

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6wlTKcacg

That tank is just a little smaller than your average 10 gallon tank.


Yes, I know. It's nearly identical to the gecko tank at the petco across the street from me. So what?


It's both common and incredibly overrated. If you ever hear someone say "It's just common sense." you can pretty bet the farm on it being completely and utterly wrong. The same thing applies to the phrase "It's self-evident."

Wait a second, is that some sort of crack about how the U.S. constitution was written? If so, good one. Nice job.http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Stefan-A]

Wait a second, is that some sort of crack about how the U.S. constitution was written? If so, good one. Nice job.:p
Declaration of Independence and no, any similarities are accidental.

[ConcinusMan]

Whatever, you know what I meant.:rolleyes:

[ProXimuS]

So....About the dog video...I do work in dog grooming, and I wanted to say this. They do make a skin glue type of stuff(they actually make it for people) that alot of grooming places have on hand for things like nicked pads of the feet, etc. Now if they said that the ear could have been saved, they didn't cut it all the way off. They definitely should have told the people immediately when if happened. And if they sliced the ear(sounds like it must've been a pretty significant cut through the ear), skin glue would not be a good thing to use, basically because if the ear is cut, the two pieces more than likely aren't going to grow back together, so gluing would be pointless. Now, since Petco didn't contact the owners immediately OR tell them upon pick-up(which they should have...), how do you not notice that for a few days?!?!

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know. But this happened to me once. Got one of my poms back from a groomer and noticed dried blood around here ear. Upon closer inspection, I found a serious gash on her ear. It was fresh enough that the vet was able to stitch it closed. The groomer in that case, also did not say anything about it. They paid several hundred dollars in vet bills and offered me 12 free groomings since I have 4 dogs. Needless to say, I never went back and took them up on it. When they need grooming I take her to a private individual now. She is licensed/insured to run the grooming business out of her home. She is so good with the dogs and does an excellent job for less too. The other places I've taken them run more like a production line and the groomers don't really seem to care much.

[ProXimuS]

They never told you?! At least you noticed it the same day...Maybe we're different than most places or something. If we have an injury, whether it be in grooming, kennel or daycare, we call the owners immediately, and most of the time, cover the vet costs.

[Greg'sGarters]

Yes, I know. It's nearly identical to the gecko tank at the petco across the street from me. So what?

There should be no more than 4 leopard geckos per 10 gallons. They have 7. I don't have a problem with cage size just overcrowded leopard geckos. I used to breed them and plan to start up again next season.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well it doesn't seem to matter what size they put them in, they always end up clustered together anyway.:rolleyes:

[d_virginiana]

Ugh. Went in my local Petco yesterday, and every single goldfish and koi in the store had ick. Every goldie tank in the store has had ick in it for at least a week or two, and they JUST put up a sign saying that they weren't currently for sale. (I guess that's because even an idiot knows a fish with no fins is sick)
I can understand temporarily overcrowding species that can handle it, but they should really be more conscientious of the fish. That sort of stress just kills them.


There should be no more than 4 leopard geckos per 10 gallons. They have 7. I don't have a problem with cage size just overcrowded leopard geckos. I used to breed them and plan to start up again next season.

Speaking of how they house geckos; what is the deal with sand? I've never kept them so idk, but I've always heard that sand was a no-no unless you feed them in a separate container or tong-feed or something.
Just wondering what the protocol on that was out of curiosity.

[Greg'sGarters]

Speaking of how they house geckos; what is the deal with sand? I've never kept them so idk, but I've always heard that sand was a no-no unless you feed them in a separate container or tong-feed or something.
Just wondering what the protocol on that was out of curiosity.

I advise against sand. It's always safer not to use sand but you can't exactly find paper towels or newspaper in Pakistan (not natural looking). Have you ever been to the beach, in the ocean, and when you get out and walk on the beach, the sand clumps on your feet? That's what can happen in a leopard gecko's intestines if the gecko ingests too much sand. If it's for a private collection which you don't plan to show off, you should use paper towels. If you want to show it off, use calcium sand. It looks like real sand but it will break down in a leopard gecko's intestines, as not to cause compaction. It looks just like the real deal. Whether you use real sand (not recommended), calcium sand (recommended), or paper towels (highly recommended), you should feed them mealworms in a certain type of dish called a mealworm dish. This will help keep their eating a little neater, and GREATLY reduce the risk of them ingesting any substrate.

[d_virginiana]

Yeah I figured the sand wasn't a great idea. They used actual sand at the Petsmart where I used to live, and I'd see geckos dead/dying in there fairly often. Always assumed that's what it was from. It could've been calcium sand, but I never saw that they carried it.

[ConcinusMan]

That's exactly what they use at the gecko enclosure at my local store. It is the calcium sand and it looks exactly like what's in the video. I'm not so sure there's a reason to freak out about the sand. Before I even knew about such issues, I used to raise/breed sceloporus ssp. and I used decorative sand which is supposed to be for flower pots, landscaping, etc. I simply washed it in buckets of water to remove the dust, and dried it. Yes, the lizards would purposely eat it, presumably for the minerals. They would also just poop it right out. Some of their "turds" were mostly sand. Didn't seem to hurt them one bit and they lived as long as I would expect for healthy sceloporus and had many offspring.

I've known a few people that kept leopard geckos and they kept them on sand too. I'm not aware that they every had any problems associated with the sand. Are we sure that the issue with impaction isn't due to a diet consisting of too many hard exoskeletons? Meal worms, for example, are very tough, and mostly fat. If you're going to use them, do so in moderation along with plenty of soft-bodied insects. The sand just might be getting blamed because it builds up behind such an impaction caused by hard exoskeletons.

[d_virginiana]

It could have been either; like I said, I know absolutely nothing about leopard geckos.
I just generally figure chain petstore employees know nothing about the animals they carry. There's one fish 'specialist' at my local petsmart that's really good, but generally they're incompetent. I kind of wish they would stick to snakes and lizards; they're kind of hard to kill compared to other reptiles. Talking to other pacman frog owners, I see a LOT of people who get frogs from petstores that come with fatal or near-fatal impaction or metabolic issues from the petstore care.

[ConcinusMan]

It could have been either; like I said, I know absolutely nothing about leopard geckos.
I just generally figure chain petstore employees know nothing about the animals they carry. There's one fish 'specialist' at my local petsmart that's really good, but generally they're incompetent.

If I were to "generalize" as you have stated, I would tend to say that you are correct. Petco employees are not zoologists and they certainly are generally not even intermediate in their knowledge of herpetoculture. They are retail "associates". You really shouldn't expect them to know any more about the animals they sell, than a person selling clothing knows about how and where that clothing was made. You really shouldn't expect them to know very much. A person working at a gas station sells gasoline ("Petrol" for you guys across the pond). I wouldn't expect them to know exactly where it came from, or how it was made. I only expect them to sell it to me if I should desire to have it. If I have questions, and they have real answers, that is just a bonus but it is not a given.

Petco is not a zoo. It's not even a place where animals are bred, produced, or studied. Their business model does not depend on the quality of their knowledge of the animals. They are not experts in herpetoculture and they don't claim to be. It is a retail establishment which happens to have live animals for sale. That's it. We should not expect them to be anything more than that. This business requires animals to be housed there temporarily. We should not expect the housing and conditions to be ideal. We should only expect a reasonable level of care and we should expect that animals are not severely neglected and dying under the care of the retail establishment. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of petco as a corporation but they have taken many steps to improve what happens in their stores, and many meaningful actions to make "animals come first".

It's not perfect. We can sit here and nitpick about their husbandry at individual stores, but to me that's like condemning the entire snake hobby because a few people continue to mistreat or neglect their animals. I'd be willing to bet that there are far more private herp keepers out there doing far more heinous things to their animals and the only difference is that we don't see it all like we see it when we walk into petco stores. Private collectors don't have upwards of hundreds of people walking in and seeing the way they keep their herps.

Look, I "hate" petco as much as the next "petco basher" but lets get real. They're not all that bad when you take into consideraton all stores. Many reforms have been made at corporate level to change things. In any huge corporation, there's going to be at least a few incidents where management of individual stores, fails to meet the corporate standards.

I just feel like this latest video about the gecko's is flat out nitpicking. That isn't **** compared to what used to go on in almost all of their stores. I feel like videos like that are just people who heard about all the problems from years past and are now putting extreme scrutiny on the stores anywhere they can find something to pick at.

Seriously... like I said, you can look at almost anyone's collection and husbandry and find something to pick at. But if you saw petco stores in the 1990's like I did, you would be writing to the upper management and praising them for the vast improvements they have made since then.

[d_virginiana]

I don't expect them to be experts in animal care. I absolutely understand that the housing in the stores is NOT supposed to be permanent, and I don't have problems with say... a leopard gecko being in an overcrowded situation for a month or two. I'm only talking about the blatant problems I've seen; like, the ones that have the potential to be fatal really quickly. Like housing a pacman frog with another frog, putting animals on dangerous substrate (again, usually with frogs), and feeding unsuitable prey. All things that you can find on a simple caresheet or google search, and all able to cause death or permanent disability in a very short time. If you're telling me that it's not the job of a pet retailer to spend less than five minutes to print out a care sheet for the animals they carry and then follow it, then I'd say they have no business being a pet retailer.

They hire specific employees to care for the reptile section as well as the fish section. I wouldn't expect these people to be experts in caring for these animals, but I DO expect them to know the basics. If you're going to be caring for an animal for ANY length of time, you need to know enough about it to keep it alive.
I honestly don't feel like requiring the corporation to put out caresheets for the animals they carry to all the stores would be asking too much. It would take almost no time, since they don't really carry unusual animals, the basic info is readily available, and the supplies to do it properly are generally in the store.

I don't 'bash' Petco and Petsmart. I realize that they are businesses and that much of the care for the reptiles is passable for short-term housing. For example; I'm understanding of overcrowding, but less so of being put on a dangerous substrate when thirty seconds of research could tell you the correct one, and there is a bag of it on the shelf beside the animal. I'm sure they've improved a lot, but I don't feel like that's a reason to pretend like fatal care errors that could be fixed VERY easily are okay and shouldn't be criticized. I mean, I hardly freak out and boycott them every time I see something I don't like; I'm in there at least once a week.

I also still say they should stick to 'beginner' snakes and lizards as far as reptiles. For several reasons. They advertise several species of frog as 'beginner' animals. I would say that they are beginner frogs, but no frog is a good beginner animal when it comes to working with exotics. Also, animals that get very large as adults and need complex care to avoid permanent problems (like tortoises, monitors, and iguanas) should probably not be sold there. No one with enough experience to care for these animals and make that long of a commitment is going to be buying them from a chain store, and most of the really egregious care issues in-store that I've seen are for species like that.
I realize that's not going to change, because there are plenty of idiots who will go in and buy a sickly baby iguana from people who made it ill because they know about as much about it as the people buying it. Doesn't mean I'm going to boycott Petsmart, but it also doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like that's okay because they don't mistreat geckos and beardies as bad as they used to.

If you go through my collection, you could find things to nitpick, but you won't find my cannibalistic frog housed with a buddy, and you won't find my garters getting skinny while crickets are hopping around their tanks.

[kimbosaur]

They hire specific employees to care for the reptile section as well as the fish section. I wouldn't expect these people to be experts in caring for these animals, but I DO expect them to know the basics. If you're going to be caring for an animal for ANY length of time, you need to know enough about it to keep it alive.
I honestly don't feel like requiring the corporation to put out caresheets for the animals they carry to all the stores would be asking too much. It would take almost no time, since they don't really carry unusual animals, the basic info is readily available, and the supplies to do it properly are generally in the store.


It's not even just about keeping the animal alive. Even from the angle of the retail industry, salespople should be well informed on the product that they sell. You don't walk into a car dealership and hope the salesman knows a thing or two about the car he's about to sell you; you just expect it. Why should buying pets be any different. The worst part is, half the time people do expect petstore salespeople to be reliable sources of information so they easily accept their advice. This is especially the case with more exotic species. Where they would take their vet's advice for a dog or a cat, many go to a pet store for advice on their snake or fish. On the other end, those same salespeople pretend to be experts and provide false information without ever bothering to do their research. In my opinion, yes, printing out a basic caresheet would be a good start, but it should be part of their job description to go way beyond that.

[kimbosaur]

And about the leapord gecko set-up...I think the main problem with providing mediocre habitats in the pet store just for the sake of saving space is that people will and do get the wrong idea. It's the same with those little betta cups. People see all these little betta fish floating in tiny cups and they think "hey, I'll bring that fish home and put him in a vase with a flower and he'll have way more space than he does now". Yes, betta fish can survive in tiny, unfiltered, unclean containers for quite a while, but what about their quality of life? You can keep a garter in a tiny critter keeper and I'm sure it'll survive...but that doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. The thing is, the pet stores rarely advise otherwise because for them, the care seems to stop at keeping the animal alive.

[d_virginiana]

On the other end, those same salespeople pretend to be experts and provide false information without ever bothering to do their research.

EXACTLY! I've never gone into a chain petstore where that wasn't the case. When I got my frog, not only did the guy give me information that, had I not known better, would have killed her within a week (such as not having to moisturize the substrate or treat all the water you use), but he pretended that he knew pretty much everything about keeping them. She's not even the SPECIES they were selling her as! I mean, I knew that going in, but still. I figured he was talking out his rear because I've kept reptiles since I was ten. No way a first time reptile/amphibian owner would have caught on.
It wouldn't be nearly as bad if he'd just said he had no clue.

I would say that the burden of learning to care for the animal before you buy it is primarily on the owner, but the employees shouldn't be completely ignorant and shouldn't pretend they know what they're doing when they don't.

[Greg'sGarters]

I do expect them to have a general knowledge of the animals that they sell at least. When you go into a clothing store, and buy a new shirt. They are perfectly correct to assume that you know how to properly wear it. But when that product is a living animal that has certain care needs, they should be able to answer your questions. Richard, I don't expect them to be perfect. Maybe Petco could come up with a simple test that people have to pass in order to get a job there. Simple stuff like what temperature do you keep a leopard gecko at? Or What do you feed a Pacman Frog? Stuff like that.

[ConcinusMan]

Went into the petco by my place yesterday. Saw 7 baby corn snakes in a tank. Normal reds and some albinos. One normal had recently shed and was looking healthy. The other 6 were all undernourished and ALL suffering from retained shed. All had the "crinkly" look and labored breathing. I told them what the problem was and that a little help could save some if not all of them. They didn't care. Just "acceptable" losses to them I suppose.:cool:

[blazenbs]

Oh my god that is horrible!!! Now im glad there isnt a petco near me

[Radix97]

There are some extremely crule people out there. most of the pet stores including petco
and petsmart dont even do these things, im glad its not a PETA production and its someone
who actually cares about the animals recording this video