Morph Identification?

[Greg'sGarters]

Ok, so I currently have a male that I caught myself up in PA. He is an Eastern (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis). But he is MUCH more red than any other garter I've caught. I think he is a certain morph. What morph is he, or is he just a really colorful normal?Here is a picture of him...7778

[snake man]

Could be a red radix?

[Greg'sGarters]

Could be a red radix?

Radix aren't found in Pennsylvania.

[ConcinusMan]

It's a normal eastern. Color and pattern varies naturally. Sometimes in the same population, and they definitely vary geographically.

[Greg'sGarters]

It's a normal eastern. Color and pattern varies naturally. Sometimes in the same population, and they definitely vary geographically.

Very true! I've found garters that were pink before! lol

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I've seen them. That morph comes in green too.

[Greg'sGarters]

The morph or the pattern?

[ConcinusMan]

Ones just like the pink ones, but green instead.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

That is a very typical garter snake for our state... I know of a location in PA where they are stripeless and actually red.... some are borderline what many would call erythristic! They also have bright salmon or pink colored bellies! Also there are females there that are literally the same size as the large adult female water snakes. HUGE! Thick as my wrist and almost 4 feet! I also have a different location where I turn up extremely pale olive green stripeless ones with maroon spots. And of course I turned up a flame once in that spot. Obviously I do not reveal those locations because I do not really collect wild specimens here anymore and I love to visit them... and it's really cool to find the same snake two or three years in a row!

[ConcinusMan]

I know of a location in PA where they are stripeless and actually red.... some are borderline what many would call erythristic! I also have a different location where I turn up extremely pale olive green stripeless ones with maroon spots. And you haven't gotten any of these for me because...? :mad:
I do not really collect wild specimens here anymore D'OH! :p

[Greg'sGarters]

If you have any for sale, let me know! I will be the first to pay for one!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you have any for sale, let me know! I will be the first to pay for one!

Greg, it is illegal to sell anything collected from the wilds of PA.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

And you haven't gotten any of these for me because...? :mad: D'OH! :p

Hehe... they are rare, few and far between! For every 50 average specimens like the one greg posted in this thread, I will find a smoker! Although I only get out herping (meaning actually go out for the whole day) about 3 or 4 times a season now.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you have any for sale, let me know! I will be the first to pay for one!

Also... as a side note, in PA your bag limit is ONE. Do not get caught carrying more than one around. Shorthead garter snakes, green snakes, and a few others are completely off limits.

[Selkielass]

Also... as a side note, in PA your bag limit is ONE. Do not get caught carrying more than one around. Shorthead garter snakes, green snakes, and a few others are completely off limits.

And I believe you need a fishing or small game license to take legally harvestable snakes and amphibians. (a looked into it to last summer.)

[Greg'sGarters]

Greg, it is illegal to sell anything collected from the wilds of PA.

I know. That's why I don't sell my wild caughts. I shouldn't have said buy, maybe trade?


Also... as a side note, in PA your bag limit is ONE. Do not get caught carrying more than one around. Shorthead garter snakes, green snakes, and a few others are completely off limits.

Yup. Absolutely correct, I have a copy of the rules and regulations for PA. Picked one up at Walmart.


And I believe you need a fishing or small game license to take legally harvestable snakes and amphibians. (a looked into it to last summer.)

Actually in PA, you can collect reptiles on land without a permit, if you catch any in the water, you need a fishing permit. That reminds me, I need to get my new fishing permit for PA this year (I like to walk in the water in waders and catch water snakes and turtles like that). Same for amphibians but you can't catch them at night using artificial light at all. I wonder if I could get in trouble if I lit a torch and used that? :p

[Selkielass]

JaY Looked for snakes in grandpas back yard under grandpas license while we were visiting last summer. I never found the exemption for looking for snakes on land, but im glad I erred on the side of caution.
In Michigan we can take 5 unprotected snakes w a license, and I wouldn't want to touch trying to sell or trade any natives, but I have given them as gifts. Its tricky with t. Butlerii, which is legal to own and collect (ina limited numbers.)I here, but fully protected in some adjacent states

[Greg'sGarters]

8038

Look at the first 2 points on there. Shannon's point is the 3rd to last point.

[ConcinusMan]

Didn't really want it to turn into yet another legal discussion but it just seems kind of funny... that goes for almost all states. The selling/exporting/trading part, (not allowed) and yet the hobby is still full of snakes that only occur in those states. Many of us have/own snakes that could only have been taken illegally at some point. .

For example... yes, you might have got that puget (very popular and widespread in the hobby, but in the wild, they ONLY occur where it's illegal to sell/export/trade them) of yours from a breeder in NY perfectly legally but someone had to take them illegally from the wild at some point, or they wouldn't be in the hobby to breed in the first place. That goes for a lot of the species/subspecies we keep. Hardly anyone even thinks about that for some reason.

You might have gotten yours perfectly legally, but they're ALL descended from illegally taken animals. There's no getting around that fact. In essence it makes all of us just as guilty whether you got yours legally or not.

[Greg'sGarters]

I caught mine legally though. I only caught one that day.

[chris-uk]

You might have gotten yours perfectly legally, but they're ALL descended from illegally taken animals. There's no getting around that fact. In essence it makes all of us just as guilty whether you got yours legally or not.

Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure exemptions can be granted, and also consider that breeding populations could have been established before species were protected by the current laws. Prime example is the European tetrataenia population. And there are probably some grey areas too, such as keepers who legally collect their own snakes in a state then relocate to another state, are they exporting their own animals illegally?

However it would be naive to think that there isn't some degree of illegal trading in garters, whether that is a deliberate thing or from ignorance of the law.

[Greg'sGarters]

True