Hello from Oregon

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Hello Everyone!

My name is Jake. I have lived near Eugene, Or my entire life.
I have always been facinated by all the little critters that inhabit the world with us.
Only within the last 6 months or so have I become even more interested in snakes particularly because of a discovery I had made in my garden... A little albino garter!
At first I thought it was a male so I named it Gary Garter. I did some online reading and I kept him for about a week then put him back in my garden.
After spotting him several more times, I decided to keep him as he might make an easy target for some other critter.
Curious of the group he would belong to and how to sex him properly, I began more online searching. After coming across this forums Sexing post, I believe Gary is actually a female. So that said I still have been calling her Gary for lack of imagination on my part for names. :P
When I first found Gary I caught many other garters (30+) from our rock pile and kept the 3 that were most unique. Many of the others looked like they were from the same litter, almost identical patterns on almost all of them and all similar sized.
I believe all 3 that I kept are female. The one that is darker colored with the yellow stripe has already escaped (I have since gotten a locking screen top) and I found her outside!! The red colored one loves to climb branches and hangout at the top of the tank. In the spring I will attempt to find a couple males similar to Gary and maybe breed her. :)
My goal is to keep her genetics going and so far I have found a lot of great information on these forums!

See ya all around!

[Invisible Snake]

Hello and welcome to the forum! :)

The normal colored garter looks like a T. radix to me, but they don't range in Oregon? Steve enlighten me :)

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Welcome to the forum :)
The fist snake looks like ordinoides. Second looks like e.vegrans

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Nice snakes btw

[ProXimuS]

Hello and welcome:)(officially!)

I would say vagrans for the first and last, but I would say pickeringii for the middle... :confused:

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Thanks for the 'Welcomes".
This may sound like a stupid question but what does it mean when people say they have 0.1 or 1.2 etc snakes? Is it genetical or generational labeling? I wasn't able to find anything about it in the search.

[guidofatherof5]

If 2.1.5 is listed it means:
2 males
1 female
5 unknown/unsexed

List males first, females second and unknowns last

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Ahhhh ok now it makes sense! :)

[Stefan-A]

List males first, females second and unknowns last
Always in that order and the number of males and females are always listed, even when there are none confirmed.

[guidofatherof5]

Always in that order and the number of males and females are always listed, even when there are none confirmed.

Good point to bring up. 0.0.5

[Light of Dae]

I think they are all Northwestern Garters or T. Ordinoides... They show great polymorphisim within local areas and within the same litters sometimes.

[thamneil]

Welcome from a snowy Winnipeg!

The albino looks like a wandering garter snake to me. The others look like northwesterns to me! Nice to have you here.

[AlbinoSquiggle]

I kinda assumed the part about listing the number even if none are confirmed. I just couldn't figure out how someone would have 0.1 or a tenth of snake. :) LOL
From the pictures I had been finding I was guessing the brown snake with the yellow stripe was a Northwestern but I still don't know enough about identifying the sub groups so I didn't want to jump to any conclusions.
The other two I really had clue. I thought Gary may have been a checkered garter... :P

[ProXimuS]

I think they are all Northwestern Garters or T. Ordinoides... They show great polymorphisim within local areas and within the same litters sometimes.

I think I'll lean more n that direction. The one I was thinking of, that the middle one looked like was and ordinoides, not a pickeringii, like I thought for some reason

[BLUESIRTALIS]

They are all thamnophis ordinoides, and very nice looking ones too! I hope to add some to my collection in the future. I hope more albinos are produced in the future because of the polymorphism, lots of the albinos will look different. I think some could have the red stripes and red flecks in them which would look a lot like a hybino. They make awesome looking albinos! The albino you have looks like a t+ albino, but it's hard to tell what's going on with her she is very neat looking and you are very lucky to have such a snake.

[ProXimuS]

If this albino is an ordinoides, wouldn't that make it the first? Or at least the first known?

[guidofatherof5]

No, I believe 2 have been found in the last year. Both by people that joined the forum when they found them. 1 escaped and the other member hasn't been on in awhile. I think there may have been a third one found by a non-member.

Very rare snake even with those numbers.

[Invisible Snake]

If it is an albino ordinoides and it were bred with a melanistic would that produce a snow ordinoides?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It's possible!
if it is an albino ordinoides and it were bred with a melanistic would that produce a snow ordinoides?

[Invisible Snake]

Omg! We have to get that project going! A forum member from Canada has melanistic ordinoides

[AlbinoSquiggle]

LOL I've seen "Blizzard" and "Snow" so far. Is it the overall amount of color or lack there of that determines if they are snow or blizzard? Such as snow is basically all white with maybe a light hint of color and blizzard is pure white?
Is there a sticky somewhere that I can learn how to identify the different types of garters? Similar to the info that was posted about upper and lower labial count?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Sorry I wasn't paying much attention to to the pics as I was slightly pissed when I posted first:D Now my sober eyes see 1st and 2nd are ordinoides 3rd vagrans

[Greg'sGarters]

If it is an albino ordinoides and it were bred with a melanistic would that produce a snow ordinoides?

Hopefully, someone goes out there tomorrow and finds an all black ordinoides on their front porch!

[ConcinusMan]

If this albino is an ordinoides, wouldn't that make it the first? Or at least the first known?

No. As Steve said, several albinos have been found in recent years. But they were all T - . This one appears to be T + and that would be a first that I know of. Certainly the only one in captivity.


Hopefully, someone goes out there tomorrow and finds an all black ordinoides on their front porch!

Plenty of people do. Unfortunately, they're all in B.C. Canada where black ordies are a dime a dozen. As to the "snow" question, I don't know what would happen. But imagine that the melanistic gene makes an all black snake with no pattern, then albino gene takes away the melanin. But really, nobody can predict exactly how the the two combined would look. I think the most pressing thing is to first make sure these albinos found lately have offspring. Any kind of offspring that can reach adulthood. Lets not get ahead of ourselves because if they don't have offspring, such a project won't be possible. At any rate, I wouldn't try it with a T positive anyway. I'd want to combine a T - with melanistic. I'd also like to combine T - albino and erythristic or stripeless. The possibilities are endless. But first thing's first. These albinos must have lots of offspring and they must survive to be old enough to breed. That alone is what is holding it up. Albinos are found, but the latter doesn't seem to happen and the genes are lost until someone finds another one.


Here's one of the T - albino northwesterns found recently and this is the same type that is usually found when an albino northwestern is found. I've never heard of, nor seen any pictures of a T + until now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HsoYpvABr0

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/9506-i-found-albino-garden-snake.html


(http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/9506-i-found-albino-garden-snake.html)

[ProXimuS]

I remember that thread. I guess I didn't realize that snake was as ordinoides.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm still beginning to wonder if that T - albino gene only allows for yellow stripes. You would think they would have been found with red or orange, or other colors since they are polymorphic but only yellow is found on the T - albinos. Hmmm...

I still think it would be absolutely stunning if one of these erythristics was an albino. That is, if the red comes through in spite of being albino.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7593/bbberynorthwestern038la.jpg

This is just one of many potential morphs that could be created using the albino gene and you know how that turned out for easterns:

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/images/017_Erythristicalbinoeastern.jpg

Now imagine them with a multitude of different patterns and stripe colors or even stripeless.

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Just a quick update, not sure where to post items like this yet. :D
Not the best picture ( trying to get her to stay still for comparison) but I woke up this morning to find a present that Gary left me...
I figured she was getting close but she isn't nearly as obvious as the other snakes going through shed.
I believe this is the 4th possibly 5th shed since I have had her. They have all been complete with the eyes and the full tail.
From what I have been reading on here if she sheds pretty consistently around 4-6 weeks then for her age she is healthy and growing well. Is that fairly accurate or am I misunderstanding something? I don't often find full size snake skins around the garden so I was trying to find out how often is "Normal".

[ConcinusMan]

Shedding frequency is tied to growth rate. The reason they have to shed is that they outgrow that layer of skin. They don't shed individual cells like you and I do so once that outer layer gets too tight, they have to shed the entire thing. A brand new skin formed underneath expands and hardens after the old one comes off. Each shed is slightly larger than the last. If she's shedding every 4-6 weeks and all in one piece, then she is healthy and growing very rapidly. Eventually, this rate will slow down as she matures.

The high frequency tells me she is still very young. Perhaps less than 18 mos. old.

[AlbinoSquiggle]

I didn't start researching garters until I found her but am fairly certain she was born in 2012 sometime as she was MAYBE the size of an earthworm when first spotted.
Also I had previously mentioned finding her around June or July but I found the initial facebook posts I had made and they were around August 29th and 30th. I know she has shed at least 4 times since housing her. I only have the most recent one that's in decent shape, wasn't trying to save them at first and basically torn them out of the tank when I found them.
Really I just wanted a little reassurance that she was growing well. ;)
Also should I look into deworming my garteres? How do I know for sure if they are infected with anything or can a person actually know for sure? I found one of your responses about garters living normal lives with parasites depending on parasite load, stress etc. but may make it more difficult to recover if they get sick. I don't want to put them at risk due to neglect but I also don't want to over do it. I could be wrong but hopefully they wont be passing new parasites/diseases since I caught them all in the same area and in the same time frame. :)

[AlbinoSquiggle]

To digress a bit I have to post your signature line on FB!!! I love it! :)

[guidofatherof5]

A fecal float is the only way to know for sure.
In my opinion the wild is one thing and in my care is another. I wouldn't let any of my animals carry a parasite load.
Too many negatives if left unattended.;)

[ProXimuS]

I do believe one of the issues with captive garters and parasites is that in the wild they can poop and go on their way, and in captivity they are stuck in the cage with the parasites, and I guess kinda get overloaded with them.

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Is a fecal float something I can do at home or will I need to go to a vet or something? I would rather get rid of any parasites I just don't want to harm my critters with harsh medication or procedures. I want to be as proactive as I can be without putting too much additional stress on them. :)

[guidofatherof5]

You need some fecasol fluid(which can be homemade), a microscope/slides and usually some type of parasite ID chart.
Call around to local Vets. to see what they charge if you bring in the fecal sample.
Maybe a local college. They might do it for free.

[ConcinusMan]

I think that due to their diet of mainly earthworms, the likelihood of your snake having anything detrimental is minimal. Snakes that live in aquatic habitats or that have been feeding on fish and amphibians are at higher risk. She's still so small right now that deworming can be risky (the meds are poison after all). Also, about her age, I think it's more likely that she was born late Aug. or Sept. 2011. In that case, she would not have done any significant growing until beginning in late spring of 2012. I say late 2011 because you spotted her in the middle of summer and birthing season here in western WA is late summer, nearly fall. Babies here often only have around 1-2 months before they must brumate. Some even refuse to eat until they do brumate. Those that survive the winter then emerge in the spring and start growing rapidly.

If you want peace of mind, I would still wait until she's much larger, perhaps a year from now, then have a fecal float done by a vet. That's just what I would do. My opinion. I think that trying to deworm her at this early stage is risky. I wouldn't worry about it right now. Her stool sample will much bigger later on too, so the vet will have more material to look at.

[AlbinoSquiggle]

Hello everyone,
I just wanted to post a quick update for you all. Gary is still alive and well! She is eating a pinky every 3-4 days with the occasional earthworm and is quite active most the time. I don't play with her nearly as often but she is very calm while I hold her and is always curious watching as I move about the room.

[slipknot711]

i think she is gorgeous!

[guidofatherof5]

Great update. Thanks.

[Shanty]

Can I throw an "envious" at you? You live in paradise--Eugene, Oregon. My uncle Ken used to live there, then left and moved to California. So instead of chasing concinnus in the Eugene region as a brash kid, I had to go and chase all those California snake species. Bummer! Red-sided whats? Later I chased rosy boas in the San Diego area--that's paradise number 1 in my estimation! Eugene is number 2.