Strange and disturbing mass death of babies

[Dracorex5]

The little group of accident garters born in july, a group of fifteen, has experienced a steady decline. I knew a few would die, but recently theres been a strange development. It started about a month ago, where one of the babies died a similiar death to one that died a week after birth. Its eyes turned grey, like it was going to shed, and it began slithering on its back. I isolated it from the others the moment i noticed, and kept my usual bin temps and humidity levels for it (a warm side of 75 and a cool side of 70 for the wintertime, to keep them eating). Unlike the week old baby, however, he didnt last the night. It almost looked like his body was caving in, like he had starved. I immediantly bumped up feeding from a medium meal every three days to a small meal every other day. Every baby ate well until that one bit the dust, and then they started getting reluctant. A couple skipped entire weeks of feeding, but even the feeding ones were dying! I am down to six scrubs, and im not sure what im doing wrong. They have fresh water every day, i spot clean the bins daily, they have access to natural sunlight and plenty of hides. Whats going on? Whats paralyzing the poor guys? Im worried its geneic disease of some sort.... And if thats the case i dont know what ill do with them of they ever start making it to adulthood

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear this.
Give us a little more info. please.
Species, food, and photos would be helpful.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Yeah, what have you been feeding them?

[Invisible Snake]

Also pictures are worth a thousand words :)

[EasternGirl]

Sorry to hear about what is going on. We do need to know what you are feeding them. Sounds like it could be a number of things...perhaps parasites or a vitamin deficiency. I do know that I experienced a very similar thing with a wild caught eastern that I found in my basement...he seemed hollow inside and slowing became paralyzed until he stiffened completely and then died. I never did find out the cause, but I suspected pesticide poisoning. Not that this would cause what you are describing...but I would increase your temps for babies. I keep my temps warmer for babies....around 85 on the warms side and 75 on the cool side during the day...and around 75-78 on the warm side...70 on the cool side at night. I always make sure they have plenty of moisture...moist moss, spritzed plants, etc. and I feed newborns tiny meals every day, increasing that to every two days for the first few months, then to every 3 days....and now at 8 mos, I feed every 3-4 days.

[Stefan-A]

Sounds like a problem with either the food supply (salt poisoning or a deficiency of some kind, perhaps?) or the water supply. A disease is of course also possible.

[d_virginiana]

If it's genetic there's nothing you can do, but it sounds like something environmental to me. It's just that if the mother doesn't have this problem, then anything genetic would have to be recessive, so the odds of every baby in the litter having it are really small.
Give us food info, and pictures if possible. Also, what is your water source and what are you treating it with?

[Dracorex5]

They eat a combo variety of pinky parts and nightcrawlers. Usually if they refuse the pinky parts ill give them the nighties with a little dust of calcium suppliment. Theyve almost always eaten well, and seem to be growing at a steady pace. None have shown any signs of MBD, so i though i had the calcium citamin levels down. Is there a vitamin i am missing? Its very devestating watching them shrivel. Ive noticed with the past two that they turned a slight tint of green before keeling, thats when ive been seperating them from the others. I currently have one now who looks rather normal other than that green tint, and am keeping a close eye on him. He looks and acts fine and is even one of my better eaters. But that green has been an indictor. Ill try and get some pics up soon. I havent changed the water since they were born, tap water that ive sun-treated for three days, purified with reptile purifyer, and then left for another day. This was suggested to me for babies of a different species, but seemed safe. I just dont understand why they are going one at a time if its something in the food or water, or why it took over three months for this to start to get severe. Ill up the temps a bit and see how it helps.... And i was working on decreasing food incriments before they started dying, now im just watchig weights and body eatablishment.... Hoping for the best

[Dracorex5]

Just walked upstairs to take pics of the green one. Dead... Its only been 14 hours since i noticed his color change and seperated him. He looks twice as skinny as this morning, but is back to normal color. What is happening to these little guys? Down to six total healthy scrubs (in my first count i didnt count this little nub as i didnt believe he'd make it). Ill try and post pictures when i get done feeding the remaining ones

[guidofatherof5]

We need more info. to be able to help.

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry to hear that this is happening :(

If you're feeding them pinky parts I would only add vitamin/calcium supplements to their food once a month, and very little/lightly dusted. Remember that some vitamins like vitamin D are fat soluble and build up in their systems

[Dracorex5]

Ill give anything and everything i know. Heres a sort of blurry pic of the dead greenie.

image_zps05307b37.jpg photo by Dracorex5 | Photobucket (http://s444.beta.photobucket.com/user/Dracorex5/media/image_zps05307b37.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0)

Their mother was a wildcaught rescue how has since been released. She was healthy other than malnutrition and a bit of wear and tear from her old home. They are july born easterns. Only one incident of mear fratricide, no signals of stress, reasonably strong eaters until recently. Natural sunlight, medium temps, 40% humidity but the moist hides have made sure they have never had an issue wwith shedding. Housed on paper towels changed twice a week and spot cleaned daily. Fed every two days. Water purified with Reptisafe. Given DMF brand nightcrawlers and pinky parts. No substrate, plenty of hides, decent temps

[Dracorex5]

I only calcium dust if they refuse the mice. Pinkies are pretty well rounded diet but they rarely always accept them! Its only calcium, as its the only thing i know is pretty safe for them to eat!

[CrazyHedgehog]

I would also scrub the water dish, really scrub, and rinse with boiling water, give fresh water... tap additives would not kill them, but if the water is contaminated or the additive too strong.... probably not any of this, but just a precaution

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The diet you have them on looks fine to me. As far as water goes all of my snakes for the past 16 years have had straight tap water from the sink with no problems. Im not sure what's going on here, but in the pic the dead baby looks dehydrated. Is the water dish shallow?

[guidofatherof5]

How often are you using supps?

[Dracorex5]

I have two shallow dishes in each bin. Deep enough that they can submerge completely, but not so deep that they'll get stuck. He didnt look deflated like that this morning, its as they as they cave into themselves. And every time i change the paper towels i scrub the dishes with a brush under water too hot for my hands, but never with soap.

[Dracorex5]

I use a tiny calcium dust then they eat worms, but not with pinkies and not at every feeding. Im also really careful about calcium dust and avoid putting eneogh on that it could get caught on their face or throat. Thats a no-no in the Dracorex home

[Invisible Snake]

Ill give anything and everything i know. Heres a sort of blurry pic of the dead greenie.

image_zps05307b37.jpg photo by Dracorex5 | Photobucket (http://s444.beta.photobucket.com/user/Dracorex5/media/image_zps05307b37.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0)

Their mother was a wildcaught rescue how has since been released. She was healthy other than malnutrition and a bit of wear and tear from her old home. They are july born easterns. Only one incident of mear fratricide, no signals of stress, reasonably strong eaters until recently. Natural sunlight, medium temps, 40% humidity but the moist hides have made sure they have never had an issue wwith shedding. Housed on paper towels changed twice a week and spot cleaned daily. Fed every two days. Water purified with Reptisafe. Given DMF brand nightcrawlers and pinky parts. No substrate, plenty of hides, decent temps

Do you know what the exact temps are?

[Stefan-A]

Their mother was a wildcaught rescue how has since been released. She was healthy other than malnutrition and a bit of wear and tear from her old home.
Was she malnourished while she was gravid?

[Dracorex5]

Currently the warm side is 75 and the cool side is 70, and theyve never had issues with activity between the two, but someone suggest a bit ago to bump it up, so im going to try and find a way to make it a bit warmer tomorrow if needs be. It drops by about 2-3 degrees at night, but my room is pretty much set up to try and be a reptile safe zone

[guidofatherof5]

I'm at a loss to know what might be happening.
The first thing I would do is stop the supps. for awhile.
At this point it is just a shot in the dark if that is the possible problem.
Any chance you can get a Vet. involved.

[Dracorex5]

Was she malnourished while she was gravid?

No doubt in my mind that she was. It wasnt incredibly severe, but she took pinkies with incredible relish when i got her, and later slightly larger mice. She was quite healthy when she birthed, but she certainly didnt look gravid. It may have been an issue in development, but all the babies were born alive, no still-borns, and were all healthy but a single runt for three months. Its curious, but possible

[Stefan-A]

The thing is, snakes are capital breeders. They use the energy they have stored (capital) to produce the clutch and whatever they eat while gravid, is used to nourish the female only.

[d_virginiana]

I have no idea what this is... There may be nothing you can do.
Is there any way you can separate them all from each other? Put them into completely clean mini-enclosures? It wouldn't have to be big at all, maybe just a tupperware dish or something. Normally I wouldn't suggest that, but if they're going from completely healthy to dead in less than one day it might be a good idea. If you can get them away from the other potentially affected snakes and out of the environment they were in, it might at least give you some idea of what's causing this.

I mean, this doesn't sound like something that should be contagious, but it also doesn't sound like anything from the environment, and it's not like any genetic problem I've heard of either. I just think separating them might be a good idea since they seem to be going downhill so quickly.

[ConcinusMan]

Its eyes turned grey, like it was going to shed, and it began slithering on its back...It almost looked like his body was caving in, like he had starved.

That almost sounds like retained shed to me. Did the skin get a crinkly, dry look to it? (in cases of high humidity and/or moisture, it won't appear that way). As the skin begins strangling them, they will crawl "funny", look like they're having trouble breathing, flip upside down, and sometimes bite themselves. Another possibility is:


Sounds like a problem with either the food supply (salt poisoning....

That's what I was thinking. Sodium induced renal failure. This will literally suck all the water out of their cells and they will shrivel up and dessicate. That would account for the lateral folds you're seeing. If they were caused by malnutrition, they would take weeks of starvation to gradually form. The only way for them to form quickly, is dehydration.


The thing is, snakes are capital breeders. They use the energy they have stored (capital) to produce the clutch and whatever they eat while gravid, is used to nourish the female only.

Exactly. They don't "eat for two" while gravid. Anything eaten while gravid goes toward rebuilding mom's reserves. The babies are being nourished individually by yolks that mom already produced by converting her own body mass reserves before the eggs were even fertilized.

Did the babies look fairly normal but then shrivel up like that rather quickly? If so, it does sound like sodium poisoning but I don't know how you could be getting that from pinkies and worms. Strange. The only thing that I would suspect is that there's something wrong with the supplements or the water. I don't even use supplements. If they're eating plenty of pinky parts and/or a varied diet, it's totally unnecessary. Even trace amounts of some types of sodium will do this to a reptile. It wouldn't be dangerous to a mammal, and so if you're using tap water, there might be something in it. Some kind of sodium that is not a danger to us, but will kill a snake. Sodium phosphates, for example, which are sometimes used to treat municipal water supplies.

I quit using tap water. It rains so much around here, I just give them collected rain water or bottled spring water with nothing added.

[Dracorex5]

Ill try using straight bottled water instead of purified tap for a while and see if that helps. A stuck shed just wouldnt make sense, considering the more recent deaths have been turning green without the eye fog, and a stuck shed wouldnt cause instant death. If anything it sounds like salt poisening from what google is telling me, but ive checked the calcium i use, the worms, and the water purifyer. None have any trace of Na, and the purifyer is supposed to nutralize it! Maybe theyre getting it from someplace else? Im just not quite sure where.... To bottled water now we go

[kimbosaur]

It might also be a good idea to switch food sources (as in the stores/brands) for now just to see if that is the cause.

[chris-uk]

I'd guess at contamination in the water, food or supplements. Have you moved on to a new batch of supplement?
I'd change everything in your position - bottled water sounds like a plan; stop the supplements for now; and I'd get in a fresh batch of pinkies and nightcrawlers.
Sorry to hear that you're in this position, I hope some of the suggestions from the forum help you arrest this horrible run of deaths.

[ConcinusMan]

Ill try using straight bottled water instead of purified tap for a while and see if that helps. A stuck shed just wouldnt make sense, considering the more recent deaths have been turning green without the eye fog, and a stuck shed wouldnt cause instant death. If anything it sounds like salt poisening from what google is telling me, but ive checked the calcium i use, the worms, and the water purifyer. None have any trace of Na, and the purifyer is supposed to nutralize it! Maybe theyre getting it from someplace else? Im just not quite sure where.... To bottled water now we go

Watch out what bottled water you're using. Lots of it has sodium bicarbonate and/or sodium chloride added "for flavor". Use unadulterated spring water or if you don't live in an area with a lot of air pollution, collected rainwater is fine too.

[d_virginiana]

Watch out what bottled water you're using. Lots of it has sodium bicarbonate and/or sodium chloride added "for flavor". Use unadulterated spring water or if you don't live in an area with a lot of air pollution, collected rainwater is fine too.

Walmart brand spring water is fine. I used to buy gallons of it and use it for my frog, and they're way more sensitive to water quality than snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

I know you're probably not saying it does, but brand makes no difference. Spring water only comes from a finite number of sources so water from the same spring can have many different brand labels. Spring water is just that. It can't say spring water on the label unless it is bottled at the source with nothing added, and it comes from natural springs fed by snow melt. Just make sure you read the label. If you don't use spring water, distilled drinking water is so pure that there are no minerals in it at all. Probably safer for snakes than most tap water.

[d_virginiana]

I know you're probably not saying it does, but brand makes no difference. Spring water only comes from a finite number of sources so water from the same spring can have many different brand labels. Spring water is just that. It can't say spring water on the label unless it is bottled at the source with nothing added, and it comes from natural springs fed by snow melt. Just make sure you read the label. If you don't use spring water, distilled drinking water is so pure that there are no minerals in it at all. Probably safer for snakes than most tap water.

Yeah, I was just specifying since a lot of times people will avoid Walmart brand because it's not the highest quality but it's cheaper than most of the others.
Is distilled okay for snakes? I've never used it for mine, but I know you can't use it for frogs because it will leach minerals out of their system.

[guidofatherof5]

I think the distilled water question came up about a year ago. I'll see if I can located that thread.

No luck finding that thread.

[Greg'sGarters]

As bad as it may sound, it gives me a sense of relief to read this post, as in that I am not the only one who this has happened to. In July, I had caught a garter snake. She seemed fat and was breathing through her mouth, very heavily. Until one day I found exactly a dozen babies in the tank. So I isolated them and fed them a guppy once every 3 days. Once a week, 1-2 would die. Now they have all died. One of them is posted in my profile picture and my avatar. They were all extremely healthy, but one day they would just lay out, roll on their back, and die. They started to also get gray eyes, but not as if they were shedding, but as if they were tarnishing silver. Just letting you know that you're not alone. Is their mother healthy? ALWAYS keep them hydrated, I once went on a 3 day vacation over which their water bowl dried up, and I lost 4 in those 3 days. Hope yours have a happier ending than mine did! Good Luck!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I was just specifying since a lot of times people will avoid Walmart brand because it's not the highest quality but it's cheaper than most of the others.
Is distilled okay for snakes? I've never used it for mine, but I know you can't use it for frogs because it will leach minerals out of their system.

Well, I know that snakes often drink water droplets off of vegetation, either from dew or rainfall. It doesn't get much more distilled than that. Amphibians and fish are different since they don't actually drink water. It's absorbed through the skin by osmosis. This explains why it's not a good idea to use distilled water for amphibians and fish: Osmoregulation in Fish (http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm)

I would think that it's OK for snakes.

[Dracorex5]

I live in a nasty area for rain water, but ive checked the brand of water i used. If it worked for triop breeding its safe for a good number pf critters. Those triops die at the slightest hint of chemical. And this tin of calcium is only about three weeks old, but they keep dying. Im also sure this is a different brand too.

[d_virginiana]

I live in a nasty area for rain water, but ive checked the brand of water i used. If it worked for triop breeding its safe for a good number pf critters. Those triops die at the slightest hint of chemical. And this tin of calcium is only about three weeks old, but they keep dying. Im also sure this is a different brand too.

Maybe still stop using the calcium supplement for awhile. It won't hurt them. It's unlikely, but there could be some sort of contamination in it. At this point you might as well try it..

[Dracorex5]

Im so sorry about all your babies... Its so strange and it really is just flat out disturbing to watch. I have one right now who i turning the green shade. Im keeping an eye on hos actions. I just want them pull through to at least springtime!

[Dracorex5]

Update: I've changed the temps to be a little higher, I've stopped using supplements of all sorts, and I have separated all the snakes into separate bins. I believe it may have been the supplements at this point.... They are eating more viciously and baby who was starting to green has stopped greening entirely. Any idea if the sups could have had NA in them causing the quick decay? The deaths were rarely after feedings, but it's very possible. I used Zoo-Med's reptile calcium without D3 about every three feedings, and just a bit (not enough to full cover). Has anyone else ever used this supplement with baby garters and had this issue?

[snake man]

I use the one with D3 on babies and they are fine.

[ConcinusMan]

and I use nothing and they're fine :cool:

[d_virginiana]

I've never supplemented my snakes. If they're getting prey with bones they don't need it.

[CrazyHedgehog]

glad to hear they are better! (and sorry for the previous losses)

[snake man]

I've never supplemented my snakes. If they're getting prey with bones they don't need it.

I do not have pinkies at this time which is why I am using the calcium.

[d_virginiana]

I do not have pinkies at this time which is why I am using the calcium.

Can you get silversides? My baby loves chopped up silversides.

[ConcinusMan]

Which, BTW are usually already supplemented.;)

[Dracorex5]

I was told that if fed on mostly nightcrawlers i should suppliment. They rarely take the pinky parts. But theyre really turning around since stopping. Still not out of the frying pan yet, going to keep a close eye on them

[Light of Dae]

I've never supplemented, I feed mostly night crawlers with some pinkie mice chopped up n some tilapia here n there.
All my snakes are doing great, no issues.

[Selkielass]

Earthworms aren't bad on calcium if they are raised in calcium rich soil and eat nutritionally rich foods. If you buy bait store worms they will be pretty empty unless you feed them up yourself. (Especially inwinter.)

[ConcinusMan]

Earthworms aren't bad on calcium if they are raised in calcium rich soil and eat nutritionally rich foods. If you buy bait store worms they will be pretty empty unless you feed them up yourself. (Especially inwinter.)

Yeah, I was going to say, bones aren't the only source of calcium. Snakes really don't need tons of calcium anyway. I've raised northwesterns on worms and slugs alone and they didn't have a calcium deficiency. They only need a supplement if their diet is all but completely lacking it. Worm castings alone are rich in calcium even when the surrounding soil isn't. Slugs are often gut loaded with calcium rich plant matter.