Blindness --> Eyes falling out (a bit graphic/disturbing)

[the_edsta]

So this episode started when I met someone who had an unexpected litterof FL easterns. I bought them wholesalefrom him and rehomed most (donated a pair to a local science class as well... the students love them!) but ended up keeping the runt. I have a 20gal with two red-sided males, so figured this tiny male wouldfit in. The original owner said it hadn’teaten much and couldn’t compete with the others, hence its stature. I figured it would be better with me as Icould hand feed it and have more experience with colubrids. I learned fairly quickly that this little guyhad serious issues finding food; hand feedings would take forever if I didn’tliterally bump the food off of his nose. I suspected visual impairment. Last week, he formed large callouses over his eyes… they looked almostlike retained eye caps, but were bubbled out like balloons. Now this happened – it looks just like the balloonedeye caps, but these are the actual eyeballs coming out of the sockets. They make me a bit queasy, so be warned:
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At this point, I have disinfected and treated the eyes as wounds, but I’m not sure what else to do. Heseems to like sun-bathing… and I believe his purpose is more to dry the area outthan for warmth (since, before now, he has not been a sunbather). Anyone with experiencewith this? I am hoping he can justsomehow lose the eyes and heal skin over the sockets… I will gladly care forthe blind little scrub. I cannot,however, bring him to a special vet for help. I have too many pets to start bringing little rescued scrubs to the ER…

[guidofatherof5]

Special needs snakes are very special.
Any chance we can get some closer photos. I've never seen this issue look like this before.

[CrazyHedgehog]

This is bizarre, I have never seen anything like this, but a quick google search gave this

"Having stuck eye caps can cause the eye to eventually dry out and die, then it will basically just "fall" out, but there is usually no blood seen in those cases."
Snake eye falling out? Help! - Redtailboa.net (http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/help-me/67105-snake-eye-falling-out-help.html)

Although I have no idea how true this is or whether based on fact, the hypothesis of drying out if there is something wrong seems to make sense.

[the_edsta]

Special needs snakes are very special.
Any chance we can get some closer photos. I've never seen this issue look like this before.

Did you see the first pic? That was as close as I could get with that camera. I can do better with my 'real' camera, but it won't be easy. When I get a chance, though, I will try.

[guidofatherof5]

Did you see the first pic? That was as close as I could get with that camera. I can do better with my 'real' camera, but it won't be easy. When I get a chance, though, I will try.

Thanks Sorry my vision not what it used to be.

[the_edsta]

This is bizarre, I have never seen anything like this, but a quick google search gave this

"Having stuck eye caps can cause the eye to eventually dry out and die, then it will basically just "fall" out, but there is usually no blood seen in those cases."
Snake eye falling out? Help! - Redtailboa.net (http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/help-me/67105-snake-eye-falling-out-help.html)

Although I have no idea how true this is or whether based on fact, the hypothesis of drying out if there is something wrong seems to make sense.

Indeed, eyecaps have been an issue with this one... they would puff out larger and larger. On the shed before last, I ended up having to remove them and the eyes did look very dry. I was hoping they'd recover eventually, but this is not a good sign (to say the least). I do wonder if the initial visual impairment is related to this in some way (whether it began with him producing insufficient fluid or circulation in the eye... something to that extent). I'll keep researching.

[the_edsta]

Thanks Sorry my vision not what it used to be.

(You're not alone! (poor snake!))

[Invisible Snake]

I think this snake should be culled.

[guidofatherof5]

I think this snake should be culled.



I don't agree. Yet.

[the_edsta]

I think this snake should be culled.

It's pronounced 'killed'... e.g., the usage seems a bit euphamistic in this situation.

It ate two days ago, so I don't think its ready to die (or at least it has the WILL to keep living).

[d_virginiana]

Aw, poor snake :( Since he seems to have always had vision problems, he'll probably figure out how to eat blind without too much trouble.

I don't have a lot of experience with serious infections in reptiles, but with my furry animals you don't want to let bad wounds get crusty, because the skin will sort of 'crack' and then heal very quickly, sometimes trapping infection inside. Just something to keep in mind for when those eyes finish draining.

How high are the temps in his basking spot? Keeping warmer helps boost the immune system, so maybe try and get that basking spot as warm as possible while still being safe.


I think this snake should be culled.

I disagree as well. Snakes can live well without eyesight. If it pulls through the initial uh... grossness that's going on right now, it could have a pretty good life.

[Selkielass]

My albino is, I suspect, all but blind and he does great nosing about and sniffing for his food. I've heard of other blind snakes who do just fine in captivity.
treat as best you can and keep him comfortable. If he recovers he will scarcely know what he is missing.
Id never suggest making him a breeder, but he may be a great pet.

[Invisible Snake]

I think this snake should be culled.

The reason I said the specimen should be culled is because it has some serious defects and we do not know how this will affect the animal and since bringing the snake to the vet is not an option I would rather the animal be culled than suffer.

[Greg'sGarters]

I would get that checked out by a vet ASAP.

[d_virginiana]

The reason I said the specimen should be culled is because it has some serious defects and we do not know how this will affect the animal and since bringing the snake to the vet is not an option I would rather the animal be culled than suffer.

I would agree if it were acting otherwise ill. But he said it is still moving around to thermoregulate, and took food very recently. Yes, it's probably suffering right now, but this problem could be temporary, and the snake could have a fairly normal life for years to come. The only thing a vet would do in this case most likely is prescribe some sort of antiseptic ointment. We don't know if anything else is wrong, because nothing else really appears to be wrong...
If the owner and snake are both willing, then it's worth a shot.

[the_edsta]

The reason I said the specimen should be culled is because it has some serious defects and we do not know how this will affect the animal and since bringing the snake to the vet is not an option I would rather the animal be culled than suffer.

The reason I resisted is that, in this situation, the word is only a euphemism as there is no group or 'herd' to cull him from. He is the only one I kept and did so particularly because he needed the attention.


I would agree if it were acting otherwise ill. But he said it is still moving around to thermoregulate, and took food very recently. Yes, it's probably suffering right now, but this problem could be temporary, and the snake could have a fairly normal life for years to come. The only thing a vet would do in this case most likely is prescribe some sort of antiseptic ointment. We don't know if anything else is wrong, because nothing else really appears to be wrong...
If the owner and snake are both willing, then it's worth a shot.

I'm going to try and feed again tonight or tomorrow and I hope he will eat. I will also continue applying an antiseptic, though I am considering a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution rather than the triple antibiotic cream I have been using -- only because we seem to be waiting for it to 'dry out' and the cream doesn't accelerate the process (perhaps the opposite).

The bulging eyes are getting caught on substrate and such as he moves, though. The further those things come from their sockets, the more I am tempted to cut them off.

[d_virginiana]

I'm going to try and feed again tonight or tomorrow and I hope he will eat. I will also continue applying an antiseptic, though I am considering a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution rather than the triple antibiotic cream I have been using -- only because we seem to be waiting for it to 'dry out' and the cream doesn't accelerate the process (perhaps the opposite).

The bulging eyes are getting caught on substrate and such as he moves, though. The further those things come from their sockets, the more I am tempted to cut them off.

Can you put him on newspaper? That's what I've done when some of mine have had mouth infections, to keep substrate from getting into it. Keeps dust at a minimum too. IMO you should wait until they are completely dry and hard to try to remove them. I'm thinking an infection could start up if you messed with it before it was dried completely. If you wait till it's completely dry, it should be painless to remove it and no risk of starting an infection.
I would also recommend just removing the parts hanging out of the socket to keep them from getting caught on stuff. The closer you cut to healthy tissue the more likely it is that you'll break the skin and an infection could start. The rest of it would probably come off in time on its own.

Hm... There was a thread a long time ago (as in years) that I remember where someone had a male with a twisted hemipene that wouldn't go back in. The guy did something to get it to dry out so he could break it off safely. Don't remember what it was or if it would be safe to do for the eyes though. Maybe someone else remembers the thread I'm talking about?

[Selkielass]

Raw honey makes an effective dressing for wounds- but it is not as effective at fighting infection as antibiotics.

[ProXimuS]

Oh my....I would definitely move him to paper towels or news paper or something that won't get caught on his eyes.


I can't help but feel like he should go to a vet.....The way I see it, you took the animal in, and you are responsible for it's health and well being, rescue or not, no matter what animal.

[paulh]

What has the snake been eating? I ask because at least one vitamin deficiency affects the eyes. For what it's worth, I'd put a drop of a good bird liquid multiple vitamin preparation on his food. Bird vitamins are better than human vitamins because both reptiles and birds need vit D3 while humans can use D2.

[d_virginiana]

Oh my....I would definitely move him to paper towels or news paper or something that won't get caught on his eyes.


I can't help but feel like he should go to a vet.....The way I see it, you took the animal in, and you are responsible for it's health and well being, rescue or not, no matter what animal.


Just saying... I don't think there's much a vet would do. At this size, they probably wouldn't prescribe an antibiotic because it's difficult to determine a correct dose for such a small animal. He would likely stand as high a risk of death from overdose as from the actual problem. And it's not like they're going to do surgery on his head.
I only take reptiles to the vet when I think there's actually a concrete solution, not a 'run a million tests and still have no answers' situation.

lol If I only took in rescues when I could afford vet care for them a lot of my past charity cases would be dead instead of recovered. If I decide to keep them afterward they become pets; then they can force me to eat ramen for a month to pay for their vet care :D

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks Sorry my vision not what it used to be.

Well Steve, from what I can see, both eyes are completely destroyed, dried up, and what's left of the eyes, is hanging out of empty sockets. Also, the jaw bone protrudes a bit in the back and the snake appears to be in poor shape overall. I think I see a "crinkly" look to the skin too (like a retained shed situation) but I can't be sure with just those photos.

[ConcinusMan]

Hm... There was a thread a long time ago (as in years) that I remember where someone had a male with a twisted hemipene that wouldn't go back in. The guy did something to get it to dry out so he could break it off safely. Don't remember what it was or if it would be safe to do for the eyes though. Maybe someone else remembers the thread I'm talking about?

I remember. Sugar water can bring the swelling down and allow the hemipene to be taken back in. In most cases however, it's too damaged. In that case, in order avoid a lot of bleeding, applying a desiccant such as sugar (salt is a desiccant too, but will probably be painful) will dessicate it and then it will either fall off with a shed, or it can be cut off.

In this case, the eyes are already completely dessicated. I really don't think that clipping them off will hurt anything.

[the_edsta]

What has the snake been eating? I ask because at least one vitamin deficiency affects the eyes. For what it's worth, I'd put a drop of a good bird liquid multiple vitamin preparation on his food. Bird vitamins are better than human vitamins because both reptiles and birds need vit D3 while humans can use D2.

If you read the whole thread, it is clear that this has been a long-term pathogen or disorder, not something recent and diet related. He is the only of the snakes experiencing it, and their diet draws from five different food sources.


Oh my....I would definitely move him to paper towels or news paper or something that won't get caught on his eyes.


I can't help but feel like he should go to a vet.....The way I see it, you took the animal in, and you are responsible for it's health and well being, rescue or not, no matter what animal.

Good idea with the paper towels... and while I agree with the idea that I am responsible for his health, I disagree with the notion that the 'health' of a snake involves specialists, medications, surgeries etc. That, in my mind, is an example, at least ethically, of anthropomorphism.

[the_edsta]

What has the snake been eating? I ask because at least one vitamin deficiency affects the eyes. For what it's worth, I'd put a drop of a good bird liquid multiple vitamin preparation on his food. Bird vitamins are better than human vitamins because both reptiles and birds need vit D3 while humans can use D2.


Oh my....I would definitely move him to paper towels or news paper or something that won't get caught on his eyes.


I can't help but feel like he should go to a vet.....The way I see it, you took the animal in, and you are responsible for it's health and well being, rescue or not, no matter what animal.


Well Steve, from what I can see, both eyes are completely destroyed, dried up, and what's left of the eyes, is hanging out of empty sockets. Also, the jaw bone protrudes a bit in the back and the snake appears to be in poor shape overall. I think I see a "crinkly" look to the skin too (like a retained shed situation) but I can't be sure with just those photos.

Good call. The skin is in fact crinkly, the snake is getting worse as we speak. It refused its last meal. Sadly, I doubt it will last the week. I have transferred it to its own paper towel lined sterilite... I hope that it is at least comfortable.

[kimbosaur]

Maybe try a shed box for the retained shed? Sounds like it's going dowhill but it doesn't hurt to give it a shot! :)

[d_virginiana]

You could also try oil for the retained shed... Though at this point I would think the damage done may be too much to recover from. Making him comfortable is probably the best you can do.

[ProXimuS]

Good idea with the paper towels... and while I agree with the idea that I am responsible for his health, I disagree with the notion that the 'health' of a snake involves specialists, medications, surgeries etc. That, in my mind, is an example, at least ethically, of anthropomorphism.

I don't feel like ensuring your animals are in good is anthrpomorphism...The way I see it, medication or not, they would at least be able to remove the eyes, as they would be able to tell where the tissue is viable, and where to make the cut to remove them. I'm sure it's uncomfortable for him to have to drag his eyes around.