Shipping discussions

[ConcinusMan]

I buy sheets of insulation. Either foam board or 1/2 inch-3/4 inch styrofoam. I cut it to size (so the pieces fit tight) and line the boxes. Any time of year, this insulates the snakes from sudden temperature changes. I've tested it out in 90 degree heat. It takes many hours for the inside to warm up to 90. Same thing when I put them in the freezer. Takes a long time for the inside to get too cold.

Then the snakes are placed in hard plastic containers (melt small air holes in it and line with paper towel) that are small enough that the snakes are cramped in there. This prevents them from bouncing around and getting injured. Then wadded newspaper keeps the container from bouncing round inside the box. Whatever you do, don't use flexible containers, containers that can shatter, and don't forget to tape the lid shut securely. DO NOT poke holes in the box or insulation. It's not necessary. I really need to do a video tutorial on snake packing. Proper packing is critical if you want them to get there alive. NEVER use those air-activated heat packs. They will consume all the oxygen inside the box.

As long as the temperatures are expected to be above freezing at the destination city, or cooler than 90 in the summer, you should be OK. The rest of the trip they will be in climate controlled buildings or aircraft. That's using USPS EXPRESS mail though. Can't vouch for any other method.

[twgrosmick]

I buy sheets of insulation. Either foam board or 1/2 inch-3/4 inch styrofoam. I cut it to size (so the pieces fit tight) and line the boxes. Any time of year, this insulates the snakes from sudden temperature changes. I've tested it out in 90 degree heat. It takes many hours for the inside to warm up to 90. Same thing when I put them in the freezer. Takes a long time for the inside to get too cold.

Then the snakes are placed in hard plastic containers (melt small air holes in it and line with paper towel) that are small enough that the snakes are cramped in there. This prevents them from bouncing around and getting injured. Then wadded newspaper keeps the container from bouncing round inside the box. Whatever you do, don't use flexible containers, containers that can shatter, and don't forget to tape the lid shut securely. DO NOT poke holes in the box or insulation. It's not necessary. I really need to do a video tutorial on snake packing. Proper packing is critical if you want them to get there alive. NEVER use those air-activated heat packs. They will consume all the oxygen inside the box.

As long as the temperatures are expected to be above freezing at the destination city, or cooler than 90 in the summer, you should be OK. The rest of the trip they will be in climate controlled buildings or aircraft. That's using USPS EXPRESS mail though. Can't vouch for any other method.


This is your opinion and while most of it is what I would recommend I only use insulation in extreme temps, rarely if ever use a heat pack unless borderline freezing, and I have always used somewhat flexible deli cups and never had an issue.

I have never lost a snake in over 5 years of shipping. What works for one person doesn't necessarily mean it is the only way. I apologize if I am coming off as attacking you but after reading that post I felt like you were basically saying your way is the only right way to do it and that is not the case.

Back to the original post I shipped to Robert last week with my temps hovering around 40 and his temps at 75. No insulation, no heat packs, and snakes arrived healthy as always.

Also.... Shipping USPS is and always has been ILLEGAL to ship snakes. The only way to legally ship reptiles is to get certified through FedEx or go through a company such as SYR.

[ConcinusMan]

All I am saying is that packaging them wrong can make the difference between live and dead arrival.

I've shipped without it before. Just saying what I do. It also gives the box better strength against crushing. I've shipped without it and had boxes arrive that looked like they had been crushed. Either way, it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

" Shipping USPS is and always has been ILLEGAL to ship snakes" That's a lie. (or at least, a persistent erroneous rumor) Perhaps against their policy at some point, but not illegal. (I just did it a few weeks ago and they knew exactly what was in the box) and guess what, SYR uses FedEx, or at least they used to. True, some post offices will refuse to take snakes but it's not illegal. Shipping venomous or other hazardous/explosive material is. Bottom line is, if they don't ask, and you don't tell or lie when they ask, you're not breaking the law. They do ask about hazardous, etc. when you ship packages. They don't say a damn thing asking if you're shipping snakes.


The only way to legally ship reptiles is to get certified through FedEx or go through a company such as SYR.

Not true. Never has been true. That information was probably spread by these companies to justify having pay 3 times as much. And SYR just packages them for you and sends via FedEx. It's a rip off.

I've only lost a snake ONCE out of hundreds of shipments and guess what. It was the one, and last time I used something besides USPS. I used FedEx and snake arrived dead. Package was beat all to hell too. Looked like it had been through a chipper. They also charged $90. USPS wanted $48.

[twgrosmick]

" Shipping USPS is and always has been ILLEGAL to ship snakes" That's a lie. (or at least, a persistent erroneous rumor) Perhaps against their policy at some point, but not illegal. (I just did it a few weeks ago and they knew exactly what was in the box) and guess what, SYR uses FedEx, or at least they used to. True, some post offices will refuse to take snakes but it's not illegal. Shipping venomous or other hazardous/explosive material is.

Fedex and the United States Postal Service are totally different in case you weren't aware.

DMM 601 Mailability (http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1103548)

Section 8.5 B

They consider snakes harmful matter.... It is most definitely illegal.

Just because your postal workers don't know how to do their job doesn't mean that it is right

[twgrosmick]

Not true. Never has been true. That information was probably spread by these companies to justify having pay 3 times as much. And SYR just packages them for you and sends via FedEx. It's a rip off.

I've only lost a snake ONCE out of hundreds of shipments and guess what. It was the one, and last time I used something besides USPS. I used FedEx and snake arrived dead. Package was beat all to hell too. Looked like it had been through a chipper. They also charged $90. USPS wanted $48.


It amazes me how someone who seems to know it all and shipped so many times would in reality have no idea what the hell they are doing. SYR does not "package them for you and send via FedEx." They allow you to ship through them by agreeing to their terms saying that you are packaging the animal correctly and abiding by their rules and shipping rules. Then as a result you become "certified" for that shipment and can llegally ship through FedEx through them at a discounted rate.

Earlier you said you can't vouch for any other method, now you say that you used FedEx.... which is it?

[twgrosmick]

Bottom line is, if they don't ask, and you don't tell or lie when they ask, you're not breaking the law. They do ask about hazardous, etc. when you ship packages. They don't say a damn thing asking if you're shipping snakes


Wow....

[ConcinusMan]

This is the second time you either misquoted me or flat out totally misinterpreted what I said. I was talking about the temperature conditions. As in, I have no idea if other companies use heated planes, etc. or not.

Also...

"Restricted, and Perishable Mail, contains additional clarification and further describes the conditions of preparation and packaging under which the USPS accepts for mailing potentially harmful matter that is otherwise nonmailable"

Well, I guess their supervisor thinks that my packages meet conditions for making them mailable because they always approve it when there's any question in the worker's mind. They go back and check with their supervisor. I don't tape the packages until I get there. They can look inside and inspect. Bottom line is, if the supervisor at a post office approves it, it ships. Restricted or not.

Big bold letters on the box said "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILE". Funny it ships if it's illegal to do so. Always has shipped for me. No problem.

[twgrosmick]

This is the second time you either misquoted me or flat out totally misinterpreted what I said. I was talking about the temperature conditions. As in, I have no idea if other companies use heated planes, etc. or not.

Also...

"Restricted, and Perishable Mail, contains additional clarification and further describes the conditions of preparation and packaging under which the USPS accepts for mailing potentially harmful matter that is otherwise nonmailable"

Well, I guess their supervisor thinks that my packages meet conditions for making them mailable because they always approve it when there's any question in the worker's mind. They go back and check with their supervisor. I don't tape the packages until I get there. They can look inside and inspect. Bottom line is, if the supervisor at a post office approves it, it ships. Restricted or not.



The link I posted clearly says ALL SNAKES.... What more clarification do you need than that? To sum it all up.... what you are doing is not allowed, you continue to do it anyway because you are cheap and don't want to do it the correct way, and you have no respect for rules or regulations (which you made clear with your little "don't ask don't tell" comment)

[twgrosmick]

Big bold letters on the box said "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILE". Funny it ships if it's illegal to do so. Always has shipped for me. No problem.



I ship lizards through the post office which are allowed and that is exactly what I write on the side so that means absolutely nothing

[ConcinusMan]

The link I posted clearly says ALL SNAKES.... What more clarification do you need than that? To sum it all up.... what you are doing is not allowed, you continue to do it anyway because you are cheap and don't want to do it the correct way, and you have no respect for rules or regulations (which you made clear with your little "don't ask don't tell" comment)

There you go again. I didn't say anything about respect for the regulations. I simply meant to imply that they would have a hell of a time prosecuting (since you say it's "illegal") if they didn't ask. Plus, I already told you. They know what I ship. Yes, I see that "all snakes" are restricted. So what? That doesn't mean it's illegal and there are conditions under which they will mail restricted items. At my local post offices, apparently showing them that the snakes are for sure packaged securely and that they can't escape, is enough for them to allow it.

What more clarification do you need other than "conditions of preparation and packaging under which the USPS accepts for mailing potentially harmful matter"

This isn't about "what's cheap" it's about not using services that are clearly a rip off. Your "discounted" rates are still way higher than USPS express mail.

[twgrosmick]

There you go again. I didn't say anything about respect for the regulations. I simply meant to imply that they would have a hell of a time prosecuting (since you say it's "illegal") if they didn't ask. Plus, I already told you. They know what I ship. Yes, I see that "all snakes" are restricted. So what? That doesn't mean it's illegal and there are conditions under which they will mail restricted items. At my local post offices, apparently showing them that the snakes are for sure packaged securely and that they can't escape, is enough for them to allow it.

This isn't about "what's cheap" it's about not using services that are clearly a rip off.

What makes you so special that they would allow you to ship snakes when no one else is allowed too. Do you not think that everyone would be shipping through the post office if it was possible seeing as it is cheaper and arguably a better option (which is why I use it to ship geckos). It isn't like you are the only person who packages their snakes securely. The certain conditions are medical research, testing, etc. It also clearly says that. Not cause one cheap *** wants to ship through the post office so that he doesn't have to pay the extra $20 to do it the right way.

If it was allowed then the statement would read "Snakes are allowed only when x, y, and z conditions have been met."

Any I am not misquoting you at all. You said yourself that if they don't ask and you don't lie if they do ask you are not breaking the law. That is like saying that if you go drink and drive and no one stops you or pulls you over then what you are doing isn't illegal. I know that is an extreme comparison but it has the same basis of "It's only against the law if you get caught"

Who determines whether or not something is a rip off? I think that SYR and becoming certified to ship through FedEx offers a very reasonable price to ship. On top of that, the buyer is the one that pays shipping so unless you are trying to make more money on shipping which wouldn't surprise me why not just use FedEx like everyone else who ships snakes?

[ConcinusMan]

What makes you so special that they would allow you to ship snakes when no one else is allowed too.

I give up?


Who determines whether or not something is a rip off? I think that SYR and becoming certified to ship through FedEx offers a very reasonable price to ship.

Define reasonable. Is it reasonable to pay over $50 to ship a $25 snake (with no money back guarantee of on-time arrival, at that) when the post office will do the same thing for as little as $26? Is it reasonable when half of potential sales get killed when they hear the price of the shipping?


On top of that, the buyer is the one that pays shipping so unless you are trying to make more money on shipping which wouldn't surprise me.

Watch it. If shipping (including packaging) turns out to cost more than a dollar under what I expected, I call the buyer and ask if they want the difference back.

I don't get any complaints about the way I ship. From my customers or the post office.

I've said enough. This was about shipping and temps. Not arguing with you.

[twgrosmick]

If we get past the fact that clearly shipping through the post office is not legal/allowed... Why would you use a shipping service that doesn't even ensure that the animals arrive in the morning like FedEx does with their priority overnight option. I know that there are a few exceptions to this with FedEx, but the postal service Express shipping isn't even overnight to every area and to top it off many shipments arrive between 2-4 PM... How do you justify keeping snakes in the box the extra 4-6 hours even an extra day in some cases?

[twgrosmick]

Define reasonable. Is it reasonable to pay over $50 to ship a $25 snake (with no guarantee of on-time arrival, at that) when the post office will do the same thing for as little as $26? Is it reasonable when half of potential sales get killed when they hear the price of the shipping?

This makes it very clear that all you care about is the sale... It is part of the hobby to pay the price if you want snakes shipped. If you don't like it go to a show or don't buy the snake. But cutting corners to save you a few bucks and secure a sale.

How desperate are you really to make a sale on a $25 dollar snake?


If shipping (including packaging) turns out to cost more than a dollar under what I expected, I call the buyer and ask if they want the difference back.

I am gonna call BS. Who have you done this too recently? I would love to hear from people who got credited back $1.50 because shipping was a bit cheaper.

[ConcinusMan]

This makes it very clear that all you care about is the sale... It is part of the hobby to pay the price if you want snakes shipped. If you don't like it go to a show or don't buy the snake. But cutting corners to save you a few bucks and secure a sale.

And what corners would those be? The snakes get there. Fast, safe, and on time. I also don't skimp on the packaging. I use whatever is necessary to make sure they are secure and safe regardless of the cost and I refuse to ship if weather is extreme or I use heat/cold packs and "hold for pickup". And I don't give a damn what time of day they arrive. Most of the time it's between 10am and noon. If a shipment is only guaranteed to arrive by 3pm and it's going to be hot, I use "hold for pickup" and they are available for pickup in the morning, skipping the truck altogether. Same goes for those "2 day" locations. 90% of the time, they get there in ONE day, especially if I use "hold for pickup". An extra day of shipping has never seemed to hurt anything anyway.


How desperate are you really to make a sale on a $25 dollar snake?

I'm not. But some of my customers only want one snake that doesn't cost a fortune and if I have 50 frickin' snakes that are all priced at $25 what then?



I am gonna call BS. Who have you done this too recently? I would love to hear from people who got credited back $1.50 because shipping was a bit cheaper.

It's rarely necessary for me to even call anyone about that. But if you must know, the last time it happened was with a shipment to Mike Meyers. Also, I won't even mention how many times it ended up costing a few bucks more, and I ate that.

[guidofatherof5]

I would like to add something to your discussion but don't want to add to the derailment.:D

[mikem]

I am gonna call BS. Who have you done this too recently? I would love to hear from people who got credited back $1.50 because shipping was a bit cheaper.

Not trying to jump into the conversation, but Richard has let me know that he misquoted shipping by $3 and asked me if I wanted him to send it back.

[twgrosmick]

Not trying to jump into the conversation, but Richard has let me know that he misquoted shipping by $3 and asked me if I wanted him to send it back.


Well then I apologize for my bs comment on that. The way he was talking it sounded like all he cared about was making a few bucks. None the less, the fact that he is shipping snakes through the post office isn't right nor allowed

[ConcinusMan]

Not trying to jump into the conversation, but Richard has let me know that he misquoted shipping by $3 and asked me if I wanted him to send it back.

Actually, I think it was $5 but whatever. The amount isn't important.

I don't really make anything Tyler. Or perhaps very little. I don't know, I don't keep books and I'm definitely not trying to get rich here. Just offsetting the cost of the hobby. I've spent far more on this hobby than I've brought in I think. Even WC snakes have a cost in gas, deworming meds, food, and equipment before they go out the door. I don't just catch and ship as a rule.

I don't know what to say about the post office. They do allow me to ship them. I don't know about it not being "right" or wrong but they have been very reliable in getting the snakes safely to their destination. According to what I've heard, and their documentation they do allow shipping of harmless live lizards and other reptiles so it seems to me that what is wrong here is their discrimination against snakes. They're just as harmless as a lizard.:cool:

On a side note, the last shipment I made, they insisted on seeing the way they were packed. They told me they found a non-native snake in the post office the day before. I guess idiots that don't pack them right screws it up for everybody.

Two postal supervisors have allowed my snakes to ship after they saw that they were just small garters, and saw the way they were packed. Now they just know me at those offices and know what I'm shipping. I don't what else to say about it. There's a lot of things they don't allow on paper but still do it. One time I was packing a bag of tobacco to be shipped. They told me they can't allow that and told me to go home and pack it so they don't see it, then come back and ship it.:cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Just did a price comparison. Same package, same weight, same beginning and destination address.

USPS Express (1-day delivery) $36.45
Ship Your Reptiles $105.52 NOTE: The rates shown on this page do not include ShipYourReptiles On-Time and Live Arrival Insurance, delivery confirmation or all FedEx surcharges, the most common of which is for delivery to a residential address.

(All of that is included in the USPS express mail price)

Yikes. And with the latter service, I have to drive all the way to PDX to ship it.

That's just friggin' ridiculous any way you slice it. If my customers were buying $20,000 ball pythons I'm sure they would pay it, but that's not the case.

[twgrosmick]

There's a lot of things they don't allow on paper but still do it. One time I was packing a bag of tobacco to be shipped. They told me they can't allow that and told me to go home and pack it so they don't see it, then come back and ship it.:cool:


First we need to clarify the difference between being allowed to do something and it being right because obviously you are looking at those as one in the same. Just because your postal workers aren't doing their job correctly doesn't make it right. If the package were to get held up somewhere else by someone who was curious as to what type of reptiles you were shipping then you would have a problem.

Also, I would really like to know what locations you were using to get SYR quote. There are other ways of shipping, reptiles express is cheaper than syr and offers the same service.
I would actually like to thank you Richard because honestly you just made yourself look like the biggest *** without me even needing to say anything else. As mentioned above you clearly have no regard for the rules and don't care as long as you think you could place the blame on someone else. To sit here and try to argue that it is allowed is clearly bull **** when you said yourself your postal workers don't follow the rules anyways. How about when someone else tries to do it and they get busted because you told them "It is ok, just don't say anything" or when a package gets opened up and they find snakes, or even worse, if one snake gets out and then because of pricks like you the reptile hobby comes under even more attack on the basis that "we" don't know how to follow the rules and properly package/ship snakes.

As a side note, I apologize for the minor profanity used. I just am not a fan of people trying to cut corners to save a few bucks...

[ConcinusMan]

Also, I would really like to know what locations you were using to get SYR quote.

Simply go to their website, put in the information they ask for, and they give you a quote. Now, are you through ranting? I honestly don't know why you're getting so bent out of shape. Seriously.

Now, if you care to pay over $100 for me to ship you a $25 snake, that's up to you. I'll ship it any damn way you want to pay for. It's not my money. Just keep in mind, the last (and only) time I did that (it went FedEx) the snake arrived dead and the package beat all to hell. That was the only shipping fatality I've ever had.

I'm still not clear why I need another company as a middle man if they're just going to send it FedEx. Somebody please explain. I don't even know what they do besides sell fedEx shipping labels and packaging.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just read what they do. Still don't see any reason for it.

[Robyn@TRR]

"I guess idiots that don't pack them right screws it up for everybody."

Oh, the irony.

USARK and other reptile industry representatives are testifying before Congress TODAY, trying to save the future of the reptile hobby/industry from anti-reptile legislation. A significant part of that argument is that reptile keepers are responsible folks that follow the guidelines and rules. ShipYourReptiles has sent folks to Washington DC to testify that reptile breeders and dealers ship snakes as a regular part of industry commerce, but they do it safely and responsibly, following strict guidelines and using approved shipping channels.

You aren't allowed to ship snakes US Postal. Period. Pleading ignorance or "who cares?" is no excuse. It also doesn't save you from any legal ramifications. Parsing the word "allowed" doesn't win the argument.

Pawning off YOUR responsibility on ignorant postal workers is also not an integrity saving excuse.

And neither is "my snakes only cost $25, whaddya want from me?".

Legitimately shipping live snakes has a particular cost. Pay it, be responsible, represent the hobby and industry properly, or don't ship snakes. YOU are the one that is going to "screw it up for everybody", as you say.

The SYR rates start at 20% BELOW the FedEx rate. And that is what it costs to ship snakes.

You have been doing it illegally "forever" (the US Post Office is a federal agency, it isn't just "against company rules"). NOW IS THE TIME to step up and do the right thing. For your sake, your integrity, and for the safety and future of the reptile industry.

[ConcinusMan]

It's easy to complain about people not following the rules while a good majority of the garter snakes that are in the trade wouldn't be there if it wasn't for...

You know what. Nevermind. You go ahead and buy, trade and sell your pugets and concinnus' and all the while, you preach about following the rules. Nevermind how they got to be available in the first place. Everyone's jumping down my throat but it never occurred to people that there is no legal way, and never has been one, to get either of those species. That includes their captive descendants. They're all illegal if you want to get picky and follow the letter of the law, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't just apply to those two.

If my east coast customers are going to have to pay $105 + to get snakes from me, I might as well give them away for free so I'll just shut it down and quit doing it at all. In fact, I think that's exactly what I'll do. It's getting to be a hassle and I'm not making enough to be worthwhile anyway. Happy now?

[twgrosmick]

If my east coast customers are going to have to pay $105 + to get snakes from me, I might as well give them away for free so I'll just shut it down and quit doing it at all. In fact, I think that's exactly what I'll do. It's getting to be a hassle and I'm not making enough to be worthwhile anyway. Happy now?


It isn't a matter of shutting down. It is the fact that you know how to do it correctly yet you still cut corners. Offer incentives to purchase more snakes so shipping isn't as expensive in comparison to the snakes being purchased. Get FedEx certified yourself, you can ask anyone who is, they offer the same if not a better discount than SYR. It isn't hard to do it the correct way Richard and there is no excuse for it. I think this thread has said all it needs too and with Robyn chiming in confirming the fact that is is illegal we know can put this issue to rest and everyone knows that USPS is not an acceptable way to ship reptiles.

[ConcinusMan]

It isn't a matter of shutting down.

Yes it is. Nobody is going to pay that when they can just go to the next guy who's charging $40 for shipping. And as far as FedEx certification goes, I already looked into that long ago. You can only ship to a business so that's about worthless. I've only shipped to a business a couple of times in 3 years. Believe me, I've already looked into every other "right" way to ship. NONE of them are practical at all. I'm not going to sell a damn thing at those shipping rates. Maybe for you guys shipping $500 orders and nothing but high end snakes, it works out fine. I only ship perhaps a maximum of 10 packages a year, if that. So, I would never see those discounts they promise for volume shipping and I would never see a customer anyway at those rates. 20% lower than "retail" fedEx rates is still higher than hell. So, I guess I just won't do it at all.

[twgrosmick]

Yes it is. Nobody is going to pay that when they can just go to the next guy who's charging $40 for shipping. And as far as FedEx certification goes, I already looked into that long ago. You can only ship to a business.

Correct. That means you can ship to a FedEx hub and have it held for pickup

[ConcinusMan]

Ridiculous. If I am to follow the rules, I can't use them either. I'm not a business. Never claimed to be, and I don't do enough selling to even have to register as a business. According to fedex's rules, I gotta have a business. I know, people just cheat and put in a fake business name, but that's still cheating, now isn't it. And now, you not only want my customers to pay a ridiculous amount, but also have to go pick it up. Like I said, might as well just stop doing it and let the next guy who's only charging $40 for door to door, get all the sales because I'm not going to sell jack **** if I do what you're suggesting.

[guidofatherof5]

With respect to the creator of this thread why doesn't this conversation move to somewhere else. If a new thread title needs to be created I'm sure a moderator would create it and move this conversation.
Just a suggestion.

[twgrosmick]

With respect to the creator of this thread why doesn't this conversation move to somewhere else. If a new thread title needs to be created I'm sure a moderator would create it and move this conversation.
Just a suggestion.

I agree, I think all that needed to be said has been. Thanks Steve :-)

[mikem]

Perhaps this is a question for another thread, but I'm sticking it here :p

The few times that I've shipped reptiles, I've always used SYR and with my last shipment, I tried ReptilesExpress. If I ever decide to become a certified shipper, I would only be allowed to ship to other businesses? My reading comprehension may not be up to par this morning, but that's how I read it from this thread. What are the advantages of being a certified shipper versus just using SYR or ReptileExpress?

[EasternGirl]

Wow...I had to scroll through a lot of pages of arguing...just saying....anyway, I just got shipping materials from SYR...who have a license to ship through Fed ex. From what I understand, it is not illegal to ship non-venomous reptiles...but Fed ex and UPS will often refuse to do it unless the shipping co. has a special license to do so. With that being said, many people ship without using a company such as SYR. I am using them because it is my first time shipping and I wanted all of the shipping materials and so forth. I appreciate your first post, Richard, as I was wondering about SYR telling me to poke holes in the box and through the insulation foam. I was also wondering whether or not I should use the heat pack they provided. SYR will not ship if it is below freezing...so I think I am going to simply pack the snakes up in the insulated box inside the snake bags provided...put some packing peanuts around them so they can't get jossled around, and then seal up the box without poking holes or putting in the heat pack. I know that my main breeder, Jason, packs using insulation...and he doesn't poke holes in the box or insulation. He only uses heat packs if absolutely necessary...but he does not use the oxygen activated ones like SYR supplies. I like SYR because they will come to your house to pick up the package, and they are allowed to mark the package "Live reptiles"...so I know that care is being taken when handling the package. Anyway, thanks for the info.

And OMG...Mike...I just read your quote on your signature line! Too monkey fighting funny!!!!

[twgrosmick]

The advantage to being certified is that if all else fails and the SYR and reptiles express get shut down because of people doing it improperly then you will have a fall back. I used SYR for the longest time and just recently switched over to reptilesexpress... I do poke holes in, I do use the air activated heat packs, and I have never had a problem.

If SYR is supplying you with those heat packs what would make you think they wouldn't work. I used SYR for years and have never had a problem. Up until Andy came aboard the customer service was far from desirable but that was my only complaint. After using reptilesexpress and seeing the night and day price difference between the two I don't plan on going back to the other anytime soon.

Just my two cents on the two companies and packing supplies.. I shipped a package today to Alaska where high temps for the day are about 15 degrees so I will know tomorrow if my packaging and method held up to the test of below freezing :) (which I am extremely confident it will)

** UPS is no longer an option ** That deal was ruined because of irresponsible shippers. Now FedEx is your only option unless you take it to the airport

[guidofatherof5]

I am now a certified reptile shipper with FedEx. Before then I violated FedEx policy and shipped snakes anyway. Once I found out how easy it was to become certified I did so. A clear conscience was the driving force.
I have a business account with FedEx so my shipping rates are lower then "off the street people"
This puts the cost to ship right at the Shipyourreptile or Reptilesexpress price. It looks like the advantage to using those companies might be the fact your can purchase an on-time guarantee which isn't available as a certified shipper through FedEx.

I can ship to a residential address if the person has a legit business they are running from their home. In the same way I can have reptiles shipped to my resident/business address.
I like picking up at the Fedex hub as my snakes stay inside a climate controlled area until I pick them up. Less truck time is a good thing.

[twgrosmick]

they are allowed to mark the package "Live reptiles"...so I know that care is being taken when handling the package.

Unfortunately this isn't always the case. I know people who have shipped both ways with live reptile on the side and just perishable on the side and occasionally the reptiles ones would get thrown around more...

Just like at an airport you can mark something fragile, but if someone is having a bad day...

[ConcinusMan]

they are allowed to mark the package "Live reptiles"...so I know that care is being taken when handling the package.

You're kidding right? I used to work for FedEx transferring the packages from plane to truck and visa-versa. They treat the packages the same, regardless of the "fragile" or "live" labels and I gotta tell you, they are far from gentle. Packages get thrown, dropped, slammed on the floor, etc. every day. Quite often, packages bust open and we would have to re-tape them. They don't care about careful handling. Moving them swiftly is all they care about. And yeah, there's even a-holes that will treat a package worse if it says "LIVE" anything on it.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Im not trying to get in the middle of this , but i thought you always no matter what the temp is have to use an insulated box with at least 3/4" styrofoam. I watched a video on syr and spoke with fedex about this.
this is your opinion and while most of it is what i would recommend i only use insulation in extreme temps, rarely if ever use a heat pack unless borderline freezing, and i have always used somewhat flexible deli cups and never had an issue.

I have never lost a snake in over 5 years of shipping. What works for one person doesn't necessarily mean it is the only way. I apologize if i am coming off as attacking you but after reading that post i felt like you were basically saying your way is the only right way to do it and that is not the case.

Back to the original post i shipped to robert last week with my temps hovering around 40 and his temps at 75. No insulation, no heat packs, and snakes arrived healthy as always.

Also.... Shipping usps is and always has been illegal to ship snakes. The only way to legally ship reptiles is to get certified through fedex or go through a company such as syr.

[ConcinusMan]

I've rarely shipped without it. It's cheap enough and only takes a few minutes to cut it to line the box. And I don't poke holes in it. It's not like it's air tight. Holes in the box and insulation are not necessary and completely defeats the purpose. I recently discovered a foam board that insulates as well as 1 inch styrofoam but is only 1/2 inch thick. Anyway, the boards are available at home depot or Lowes.

[twgrosmick]

Im not trying to get in the middle of this , but i thought you always no matter what the temp is have to use an insulated box with at least 3/4" styrofoam. I watched a video on syr and spoke with fedex about this.

Yes that is correct. I was unaware of that until I recently spoke with Debby at reptilesexpress. The requirement is actually 1/2 inch styrofoam but 3/4 seems to be the standard. You also don't have to use a box from SYR it just has to be a FedEx approved box which has the stamp on the bottom showing that will hold up under certain stress.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I couldn't remember how thick it was, but i knew it had to be present in every box.

[twgrosmick]

I couldn't remember how thick it was, but i knew it had to be present in every box.

Yeah I wasn't aware of that until recently. I have gotten boxes from so many different people and it was about 50/50 whether they had insulation or not in them. Just ordered a few shipping boxes through reptilesexpress so I won't have to worry about it :-)

[ConcinusMan]

I just use "ready post" boxes from the post office. Usually 12X12X12. They're $2.50 and it costs about a dollar to insulate them myself.

[Robyn@TRR]

You're kidding right? I used to work for FedEx transferring the packages from plane to truck and visa-versa. They treat the packages the same, regardless of the "fragile" or "live" labels and I gotta tell you, they are far from gentle. Packages get thrown, dropped, slammed on the floor, etc. every day. Quite often, packages bust open and we would have to re-tape them. They don't care about careful handling. Moving them swiftly is all they care about. And yeah, there's even a-holes that will treat a package worse if it says "LIVE" anything on it.

This is absolutely correct. There is NOTHING you can write on the box that gets you "preferred" treatment. No one is going to deliver your box on a goose down pillow.

But that's ok.

You can ship reptiles because they do well in the shipping process. You can't ship puppies the same way, because they don't. The reptile packaging protects the animals from the inevitable jostling, tumbling and conveyer belt madness that they WILL be subject to. And if the animal is packaged properly, it will be fine.

A FedEx handler or driver handles a thousand (or ten thousand) packages a day. They want to get their job done quickly and efficiently.

What you really want is NO special attention. Let the proper packaging do its job. Just get the package to the destination on time, that is the only goal. CM is correct, raising eyebrows with big red garish labeling that says "BE CAREFUL OF MY SNAKE!" is only going to attract negative attention, and reptile phobic attention. You ARE required by federal law (the Lacey Act) to properly label the outside of your box, and we cover that in our Get Help section, but it doesn't have to be in giant red letters, and again, nothing you write on the box is going to get you more "prefered" handling.

If you have appropriate expectations of the shipping process, you give yourself the best chance of success. Time spent worrying about "Fragile" or "Be Careful" labeling is better spent on ensuring the animal is properly protected inside the box, it is taped up well, address is 100% complete, includes unit or apartment numbers, the stuff that really matters : )

When you do YOUR part properly, the booking and packaging, and let FedEx do their part, the transport, your package will be delivered safely and on time 99.99% of the time.

[Robyn@TRR]

I just use "ready post" boxes from the post office. Usually 12X12X12. They're $2.50 and it costs about a dollar to insulate them myself.

FedEx (and UPS) charge either actual weight (what a box weighs on the scale) or dimensional weight, whichever is higher. Dim weight is calculated by HxWxL, divided by 166. The dim weight on that 12x12x12 box would be 11 pounds (!!). Even if it has baby snakes, or lightweight garters, and actually weighs less than 2 pounds, if you are shipping it FedEx or UPS, you will be charged at the 11 pound rate, which is monumentally higher than the 2 pound rate.

It is always wise to use the smallest box that you can. Our 12x9x6 box is the most popular for us, and dims at 4 pounds. If you could fit your shipment in the 12x9x6 box, you would be paying for a 4 pound box, which is much less expensive than an 11 pound box.

A 12x12x12 box that weighs 2 pounds would bill at 11 pounds. The same size box that weighs 7 pounds would still bill at 11 pounds. The same size box that weighs 12 pounds would bill at 12 pounds, as actual weight is now higher than dimensional weight. Make sense?

CM, I don't know what box dims and weights you have used to run quotes at SYR, but knowing "tricks" like using the smallest box you can safely pack will help bring down the shipping rate, every time.

[guidofatherof5]

I use FedEx 8X8X9 crush rated boxes for shipping my snakes. They always charge actual weight by the pound. 1 lb.1 oz is charged as a 2 lb box.

[ConcinusMan]

The reptile packaging protects the animals from the inevitable jostling, tumbling and conveyer belt madness that they WILL be subject to. And if the animal is packaged properly, it will be fine.

Which is pretty much what I said but it turned into an argument. My only point was that if you don't package properly, escapes, injuries, and even death can result. "Noob" shippers tend to put their snakes in containers that are too big. Ideally, they should fit rather tightly. It's not supposed to be roomy. If there's enough room that the snake smacks against the inside of the container when you shake it, it's too big.


I use FedEx 8X8X9 crush rated boxes for shipping my snakes. They always charge actual weight by the pound. 1 lb.1 oz is charged as a 2 lb box.

With USPS, any box with a maximum side length of 18'' goes by weight, rounded to the nearest ounce. (doesn't apply to flat rate boxes) You're not getting charged 2lbs when your package only weighs 1.1 or 1.6lbs. I think most shipping companies also have maximum dimensions before they start charging by "dimensional weight". You really get screwed if you go past that size, particularly if your package is rather light.

[guidofatherof5]

The proper crush rated box is very important.

[Robyn@TRR]

I use FedEx 8X8X9 crush rated boxes for shipping my snakes. They always charge actual weight by the pound. 1 lb.1 oz is charged as a 2 lb box.

That box dims at 4 pounds. I guarantee you they bill you at 4 pounds. When you enter the info on the SYR site, or at the FedEx site, or at a FedEx desk, you enter the dimensions. The system automatically calculates at whichever rate is higher, actual or dim. Actual weights, like "1.3" ARE rounded UP (always up : ) and that "2 pounds" is then carried over to the label, but when it comes to the rate, it will bill at the 4 pound rate, if you have entered the dimensions.

Try running a couple quotes at FedEx.com.

Your 8x8x9 box at 1.1 pounds, get the rate, which will be as a "4 pound box".

Now enter a 4x4x4 box (which dims under 1 pound) at 1.1 pounds and see the rate. That will bill as a "2 pound box".

Now enter the same 4x4x4 box but at 4 pounds, you should see the same rate as your 8x8x9 at 1.1 pounds.

The system can be difficult to understand at times. It is also difficult to book a package at both UPS.com and FedEx.com and get the same result. They have different check boxes, phrasing, and settings. But their rates are the absolute SAME, at parity, down the the penny. But I think the convoluted nature of the system plays into confusing folks looking to compare, or find the right rate.

[Robyn@TRR]

Which is pretty much what I said but it turned into an argument. My only point was that if you don't package properly, escapes, injuries, and even death can result. "Noob" shippers tend to put their snakes in containers that are too big. Ideally, they should fit rather tightly. It's not supposed to be roomy. If there's enough room that the snake smacks against the inside of the container when you shake it, it's too big.



With USPS, any box with a maximum side length of 18'' goes by weight, rounded to the nearest ounce. (doesn't apply to flat rate boxes) You're not getting charged 2lbs when your package only weighs 1.1 or 1.6lbs. I think most shipping companies also have maximum dimensions before they start charging by "dimensional weight". You really get screwed if you go past that size, particularly if your package is rather light.

I must have missed the "argument", I was confirming what you said about packaging and handling.

The whole point of dimensional weight is to get a higher rate for the packages that don't weigh much. Perhaps you are confusing dim charges with Oversize charges, which is a different fee that does indeed kick in after a package exceeds a set size on the large end.

But they do indeed charge according to dimensional weight for all air packages. Starting at 1 pound.

[ConcinusMan]

But their rates are the absolute SAME, at parity, down the the penny.

Say what? That's never been the case with any package I've ever mailed. Take it to them, and FedEX always wants more than UPS.

[ConcinusMan]

The whole point of dimensional weight is to get a higher rate for the packages that don't weigh much. Perhaps you are confusing dim charges with Oversize charges, which is a different fee that does indeed kick in after a package exceeds a set size on the large end.

But they do indeed charge according to dimensional weight for all air packages. Starting at 1 pound.

Who does? All snake packages I mail out charge by weight. "dimensional weight" ONLY comes into play if any one side is over 18" . Then they use the higher of the two (weight or dimensional). Oversize limits are much higher than 18" All I know is that there is a minimum 1lb charge on my 12X12X12 boxes and as long as they are under 18" on any one side, they only charge for each additional ounce, up to to a certain weight limit.

For example, that box is going to cost the same for shipping whether it weighs 8oz or 16 oz. If it goes over 16, they charge by weight rounded to nearest ounce. But if I were to use a 20" box that weighed 8oz, or even 16oz I get screwed on the rate. In other words, keep it under 18" unless you want to get screwed.

EDIT: oops. correction. Anything over 12" you get screwed.'

Actually, I dont' even know anymore. Cant count on the shipping calculator online. It's flat out wrong sometimes. I just know that size beyond a certain amount really screws you regardless of weight. I just keep them small to avoid that.

[MCwyo]

Guess it's lucky for me that I have a home business... I did not know that snakes could only be shipped to/from a business.

[Robyn@TRR]

Who does?

FedEx and UPS do. I have not forgotten so quickly that you are a US Postal customer, who prohibit snake shipping. I'm talking about proper carriers.

As for the rate, I was trying to explain that getting a quote for the same box, same service and fees can be difficult through their sites, but I know, for a fact, that the rates are at parity, to the penny. Again, this is just FedEx and UPS.

And when they raise their rates the first of the year, as they do each year, they will raise them by the exact same amount, and parity will remain. They both still publish a rate book, with printed rates, and they are the same.

You give me the package spec, size and weight, zip to zip, and I do know the subtle process differences that produce the same quote/booking result at both FedEx and UPS. It is challenging, but once you know their systems, you can find the answer.

All I know about garters is that they are small, and can be REALLY pretty. But I do know all about shipping, for real : )

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, ridiculous isn't it? What friggen difference does it make. Apparently, if you go with SYR, fedEx WILL deliver your reptile to a residence but not if you ship it yourself as a certified reptile shipper. WTF?

Whatever. They're both just ridiculous and I'm not asking anyone to pay $105 to ship. It's up to them if they want to do that and this is the first I've heard any complaints about my shipping. Nobody goes telling me "hey, I'd rather you ship using SYR at 3 times the rate". Yeah, not a lot of demand for that I noticed.

[Robyn@TRR]

Guess it's lucky for me that I have a home business... I did not know that snakes could only be shipped to/from a business.

The B2B requirement is a part of the FedEx Live Reptile Certification contract, yes. You can find the language in your own contract if you are already certified. But it is for addresses ZONED as a business. It specifically says that "home based businesses" do not count. So a home business does not meet the FedEx requirement.

Why the requirement? I don't know, doesn't make a lot of logical sense to reptile folks. But it is specific.

ShipYourReptiles has a FedEx issued exception for that clause, and using our service, you can ship to and from both Residential and Business addresses.

You also waive your right to any refunds or content coverage under the FedEx agreement. If a package is late, no refund. That is why we started the SYR On-Time and Live Arrival Insurance, which is self funded. FedEx doesn't pay us for late or damaged packages either, but if you select the coverage during booking, we DO PAY YOU!

We offer a number of great benefits. And we can customize the rate to meet a customer need. Contact me directly, I am happy to talk with you about it.

[Robyn@TRR]

Yeah, ridiculous isn't it? What friggen difference does it make. Apparently, if you go with SYR, fedEx WILL deliver your reptile to a residence but not if you ship it yourself as a certified reptile shipper. WTF?

Whatever. They're both just ridiculous and I'm not asking anyone to pay $105 to ship. It's up to them if they want to do that and this is the first I've heard any complaints about my shipping. Nobody goes asking telling me "hey, I'd rather you ship using SYR at 3 times the rate". Yeah, not a lot of demand for that I noticed.

We have never met, but I get the feeling that nothing will make you happy. That's a shame. It is also a shame that you thumb your nose at reptile shipping regulations because "you can". You put us all in jeopardy with that selfish approach. I guess your "getting out of the business" lasted less than 24 hours?

We have thousands of folks using our service and getting a terrific result, I'm sorry that you see no benefit to it. I would STRONGLY encourage you to do the RIGHT thing and get individually FedEx certified.

[MCwyo]

I don't ship, so no I am not certified/have never seen the contract. So... I cannot buy snakes since my business is in my home, even though it falls into proper business zoning regulations with my city? Crazy. Oh well. I wonder if I could arrange to have any future additions shipped to the local pet store... They might be willing to work with me :) I will check out the SYR and RE options as well though.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess your "getting out of the business" lasted less than 24 hours?

Who said I ever changed that decision? Not currently in business anyway.


We have thousands of folks using our service and getting a terrific result, I'm sorry that you see no benefit to it. I would STRONGLY encourage you to do the RIGHT thing and get individually FedEx certified.

Apparently, that won't work either. I'm not a business and shipping 8-10 packages a year hardly constitutes one. If I were to use SYR, I think they would be making far more money on the deal than I, you know, the person with the product, the one doing all the work and investment of time and money. Look, I'm not saying it's not a good service or anything like that. I'm saying the cost is ridiculous. $105 from me to NY. No on time insurance, not including packaging, etc. That's outrageous.

[twgrosmick]

I don't ship, so no I am not certified/have never seen the contract. So... I cannot buy snakes since my business is in my home, even though it falls into proper business zoning regulations with my city? Crazy. Oh well. I wonder if I could arrange to have any future additions shipped to the local pet store... They might be willing to work with me :) I will check out the SYR and RE options as well though.


Or you could have it shipped to the nearest FedEx hub and hold it there.

[MCwyo]

You know what. Nevermind. You go ahead and buy, trade and sell your pugets and concinnus' and all the while, you preach about following the rules. Nevermind how they got to be available in the first place. Everyone's jumping down my throat but it never occurred to people that there is no legal way, and never has been one, to get either of those species. That includes their captive descendants. They're all illegal if you want to get picky and follow the letter of the law, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't just apply to those two.

Sorry, don't want to get back off track, but I just saw this and am now kind of (VERY) worried... concinnus, illegal???!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Don't worry about it. You're in Wyoming. I was merely pointing out that OR and WA has always had laws on the books stating that it's illegal to collect / keep native wildlife including their captive descendants. And being how those are the only two states where they can be found, someone had to break the law at some point or nobody would have them. Not that WA cares anyway. When it comes to garter snakes, they don't give a damn about enforcing it. There's been a couple of times that they knew I had them. They didn't give a damn. They have better things to do than go after people who keep a few garter snakes. But that wasn't my point.

My point was that nobody would have them, anywhere, if someone hadn't bent the rules at some point. So, if you're keeping them, selling/breeding, whatever, you're benefiting from those bent rules. All the while preaching about following the rules. I don't see these same people refusing to keep or buy those species so they are just hypocrites whether it was them that broke the law or not because they are creating the demand. I think that perhaps if SYR wasn't so damn ridiculously high on the price, they could eliminate the need to use other channels altogether.

You have nothing to worry about. There's no law in Wyoming that says you can't have them. Even if there was, I'm sure they have better things to worry about.

[Robyn@TRR]

Look, I'm not saying it's not a good service or anything like that. I'm saying the cost is ridiculous. $105 from me to NY. No on time insurance, not including packaging, etc. That's outrageous.

A 12x9x6 box at 3 pounds is $67 to ship from California to NY, all the way across the country, you can run a quick free quote at ShipYourReptiles.com. That is where the rate STARTS, and can better from there.



I, you know, the person with the product, the one doing all the work and investment of time and money.

Does spending half a million dollars to start our business and build the website count? LOL.

[ConcinusMan]

A 12x9x6 box at 3 pounds is $67 to ship from California to NY, all the way across the country, you can run a quick free quote at ShipYourReptiles.com. That is where the rate STARTS, and can better from there.

And yet, 12X12X12 (the size I use most often) 2lbs, from my zip (in the Portland/Vancouver metro area) to 11385 costs $105.52 and that's with no on-time insurance or anything. And no, it doesn't "get better" from there being how that price is the only way I can ship a live snake. It only goes up, when you start adding the things it doesn't include. I'm just going by the USPS receipt I have here. That's what I mailed. Guaranteed on time or your money back. Price was $36.45. So, apparently, it's buy those weird dimension boxes from you guys, then it's cheaper. Buy a box elsewhere (I don't recall ever seeing a shipping box that I can buy like that one) and you charged up the... for shipping. I see. It's like those cheap printers. Buy the printer cheap, but to refill it costs a fortune.


Does spending half a million dollars to start our business and build the website count? LOL.

You totally missed to point again apparently.

[Stefan-A]

You totally missed to point again apparently.
Well don't leave it at that. If a point was missed, explain what the point was.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm going to leave it at that because you'll just ignore it or argue against it anyway so its just not worth it.

[Robyn@TRR]

And yet, 12X12X12 (the size I use most often) 2lbs, from my zip (in the Portland/Vancouver metro area) to 11385 costs $105.52 and that's with no on-time insurance or anything. And no, it doesn't "get better" from there being how that price is the only way I can ship a live snake. It only goes up, when you start adding the things it doesn't include. I'm just going by the USPS receipt I have here. That's what I mailed. Guaranteed on time or your money back. Price was $36.45. So, apparently, it's buy those weird dimension boxes from you guys, then it's cheaper. Buy a box elsewhere (I don't recall ever seeing a shipping box that I can buy like that one) and you charged up the... for shipping. I see. It's like those cheap printers. Buy the printer cheap, but to refill it costs a fortune.

You totally missed to point again apparently.

Apparently I have. LOL.

Honestly I am not sure how serious you are. You give me the chuckles at your obstinance. I think maybe you are being difficult just for fun. I'm not offended, it is kinda entertaining, but probably wears thin pretty quick.

I am not sure what goes in the blue world you live in, but the "weird" box size of 12x9x6 is by far the most common box in the reptile shipping world. It is the number one seller of every reptile packaging supplier online. "Weird".

Yes, if you use a larger box, the rate is higher. Again, not sure if you are trying to be "funny" by pointing this out, but I am laughing, so, success? : )

[ConcinusMan]

What I'm trying to say is that there's nobody around here that I can find, that sells boxes that size. And give me a break. By the time that's insulated, I couldn't fit jack spit in there. Unless I end up buying them from SYR (again, at a higher price than what I buy) I'm screwed. 12X12 area is going to be the minimum size I use in most cases. By the time you insulate it, the inside dimensions are much smaller. Is that small difference in size really worth that huge difference in the shipping price? Why so much more to ship it?

[twgrosmick]

What I'm trying to say is that there's nobody around here that I can find, that sells boxes that size. And give me a break. By the time that's insulated, I couldn't fit jack spit in there. Unless I end up buying them from SYR (again, at a higher price than what I buy) I'm screwed. 12X12 area is going to be the minimum size I use in most cases. By the time you insulate it, the inside dimensions are much smaller.


I have packed plenty of snakes in a 12x9x6 and anything larger means that the buyer is purchasing many animals and it would be obvious that shipping is going to cost more. There are very few garter snakes babies-adults that could not fit in a 12x9x6 and still have room for packing, heat, etc.

Just my two cents. The 12x9x6 with insulation can hold 8 small deli cups with no problem. That covers any garters from just born up to about a year give or take. That is the minimum without really having to try.

[Robyn@TRR]

What are you shipping, adult iguanas? I can fit two 5 ft. adult Mandarin ratsnakes plus heat pack in the 12x9x6 without much effort...

What if the only thing available "locally" to you was refrigerator boxes? Would you just use those? Pretending that options don't exist doesn't actually mean options don't exist. Order some boxes. Don't send us your business if you don't want to, order them from TSKSupply.com, they have many sizes. Or buy them from ULine.com and get insulation from Home Depot and insulate them yourself.

[ConcinusMan]

That just seems awfully small.

[infernalis]

That just seems awfully small.

I have received snakes in boxes as small as 9x9x9 and there was room inside the box for the deli cup and heat pack + foam insulation.

[twgrosmick]

I ship three small deli cups in a 7x7x7 w/ 3/4 inch insulation... You have to change your packing up when a heat back is involved, but for the majority of the year you can really ship most of the stuff in very small boxes.

[Stefan-A]

I'm going to leave it at that because you'll just ignore it or argue against it anyway so its just not worth it.
Is that bad?

Also, if someone ignores it, your position grows stronger.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...once again, scrolling through a lot of arguing to get here. And, it does kind of seem like Richard and twogromsmick...or whatever the name is, are arguing with everyone now just for the sake of arguing. I was incorrect in saying that SYR marks the boxes "live reptile"...it just says perishable on the box. I wasn't saying that I don't trust their specific heat packs so much as I was saying that I worry about using a heat pack at all. With all of the insulation and the fact that the snakes will be on a plane and a truck most of the time...I don't want them to overheat. So my question is...should I use the heat pack if I am going to ship now? And do you guys suggest I use the snake bags or the large deli cup? The snakes are yearlings...2 of them. Should I use packing peanuts to prevent jossling? And should I poke holes through the box and styrofoam like the SYR directions say, or not? I'm hearing different answers to these questions and I need to make a decision....thanks!

[guidofatherof5]

Marnie,
Your original thread is still alive. I had Stefan move the discussion between Richard and Tyler to this new thread. Here is your thread.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11868-shipping-temps.html#post234577

[twgrosmick]

arguing with everyone now just for the sake of arguing.


If you really read through you would see that the only argument on my end was with Richard because what he was doing isn't allowed. It has now been confirmed by a reptile shipping company so really there isn't a discussion. If it weren't for this thread you would obviously have no idea how to ship your reptile this time of year. If you don't like it that is fine but don't complain about people arguing and then go on to ask for our help. I have presented what has worked extremely well for me, Richard has his own methods (disregarding the USPS) which I am sure would work well, and there are plenty of videos from reptile shipping companies explaining how to do it. Really you are the one that needs to make the decision. Personally, and not bashing Richard here, I would go with what SYR has to say seeing as it is their job.... just my thoughts...

[MCwyo]

Don't worry about it. You're in Wyoming. I was merely pointing out that OR and WA has always had laws on the books stating that it's illegal to collect / keep native wildlife including their captive descendants. And being how those are the only two states where they can be found, someone had to break the law at some point or nobody would have them. Not that WA cares anyway. When it comes to garter snakes, they don't give a damn about enforcing it. There's been a couple of times that they knew I had them. They didn't give a damn. They have better things to do than go after people who keep a few garter snakes. But that wasn't my point.

My point was that nobody would have them, anywhere, if someone hadn't bent the rules at some point. So, if you're keeping them, selling/breeding, whatever, you're benefiting from those bent rules. All the while preaching about following the rules. I don't see these same people refusing to keep or buy those species so they are just hypocrites whether it was them that broke the law or not because they are creating the demand. I think that perhaps if SYR wasn't so damn ridiculously high on the price, they could eliminate the need to use other channels altogether.

You have nothing to worry about. There's no law in Wyoming that says you can't have them. Even if there was, I'm sure they have better things to worry about.

Are. You. Kidding. Me. Yes I am going to worry about it if I have poached snakes sitting in my living room!

I am currently trying to contact both OR and WA game & fish to find out the exact laws/regulations regaurding these two species. I want to hear it from them.

I am so mad at myself. I was an idiot not to check laws before hand. That mistake will not happen again.

[twgrosmick]

Are. You. Kidding. Me. Yes I am going to worry about it if I have poached snakes sitting in my living room!

I am currently trying to contact both OR and WA game & fish to find out the exact laws/regulations regaurding these two species. I want to hear it from them.

I am so mad at myself. I was an idiot not to check laws before hand. That mistake will not happen again.

Your gonna be fine. They are only regulated in states where they are native and even then most of the time you are able to get a permit. You will be fine :-)

[ConcinusMan]

Are. You. Kidding. Me. Yes I am going to worry about it if I have poached snakes sitting in my living room!

You don't. And the only thing you have to worry about is whether or not it's legal to keep a species in your state, county, city, etc. but that goes without saying.

Which reminds me. Since this is a shipping discussion...

I really should start checking the destination state's laws when I ship. The shipper is also legally responsible if it's illegal in your state to keep certain species. This is why Scott won't ship native CA species to CA. In that state it's only legal to keep WC native garters. Importing them from out of state is illegal. So is breeding them in captivity, and so is releasing them once they've been in captivity. So you see, in that state the only legal garter is one that is not native or one that was WC in the state. Basically, you can't have a CA red sided garter there unless you take it from the wild. Crazy huh?

[twgrosmick]

I really should start checking the destination state's laws when I ship. The shipper is also legally responsible if it's illegal in your state to keep certain species. This is why Scott won't ship native CA species to CA. In that state it's only legal to keep WC native garters. Importing them from out of state is illegal. So is breeding them in captivity, and so is releasing them once they've been in captivity. So you see, in that state the only legal garter is one that is not native or one that was WC in the state. Basically, you can't have a CA red sided garter there unless you take it from the wild. Crazy huh?

Agreed. Most of the time though the laws allow albinos or any other morphs. Very true though but also as you said, they have bigger fish to fry with people keeping alligators and hots, that while I don't recommend it because the consequences are a pretty hefty fine, you don't really have much to worry about. Luckily in MD, all I have to do is pay $25 for a permit and I can keep, breed, and sell garters. Nice point though Richard.

[MCwyo]

I don't care if it's not probable that my G & F will give me a hard time over it. Harvesting species against the law is NOT something I want any part of.

I checked and double checked my own state laws to make sure I could keep vagrans harvested from the wild. I checked the laws to make sure I could import live garter snakes into WY from other states before buying the concinnus. I completely screwed up in not checking the laws where the snakes were comming from.

I am taking this to PM now because it dose not belong in this thread- other than the fact that I have also learned that these snakes were shipped illegally - and I apologize, but it was brought up in this thread that the snakes I have were taken against the law. I will probably be opening a new thread at some point regaurding poaching.

[Robyn@TRR]

Okay...once again, scrolling through a lot of arguing to get here. And, it does kind of seem like Richard and twogromsmick...or whatever the name is, are arguing with everyone now just for the sake of arguing. I was incorrect in saying that SYR marks the boxes "live reptile"...it just says perishable on the box. I wasn't saying that I don't trust their specific heat packs so much as I was saying that I worry about using a heat pack at all. With all of the insulation and the fact that the snakes will be on a plane and a truck most of the time...I don't want them to overheat. So my question is...should I use the heat pack if I am going to ship now? And do you guys suggest I use the snake bags or the large deli cup? The snakes are yearlings...2 of them. Should I use packing peanuts to prevent jossling? And should I poke holes through the box and styrofoam like the SYR directions say, or not? I'm hearing different answers to these questions and I need to make a decision....thanks!


We suggest making two small holes on two sides of the box. I typically use a philips screwdriver and make 1/4" holes. The heat pack uses oxygen to create the heat.

And yes I would use a heat pack. In these temps, the heat pack is not going to make the box HOT, it is going to keep it temperate. The box interior temp probably won't exceed 65F with the heat pack in it, but it will get much colder without it. We have done lots of tests and experiments with winter shipping and heat packs, they work very well.

You can use packing peanuts, but crumpled newspaper works very well, it is easily accessible, and it doesn't get everywhere when unpacking the box. Newspaper also absorbs liquids in case the animal "liquids" up the box : )

[ConcinusMan]

Also, it's a good idea to fast them for 5-7 days and maybe let them go for a little swim prior to shipping to encourage them to go poop. Reduces the chances of pooping or vomiting during shipping.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey guys keep up the back and forth with regards to shipping, I plan on shipping next year and would like to learn how.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the info. And ummm...Tyler you are arguing with me about not arguing with other people. Dude...seriously. I was complaining because I wanted shipping info...not to listen to people fighting over stupid crap. And actually, I have plenty of friends that I can call who will help me with shipping info...but I thought that was what this thread was for. Of course I am going to complain if it gets derailed by people arguing...that is not what this thread or forum is for...take it to a PM. Or...I don't know, here is a concept...try being civil. I am done with this conversation and this thread. Thank you to everyone who helped me with my shipping questions.

[twgrosmick]

I thought that was what this thread was for

Your original thread is still alive and well and now has nothing to do with this thread. So still not sure why you are complaining. I also think that many people will agree that this is exactly what this forum is for. It was an argument, a point was proven, and now people who read this will realize that USPS is not an option and will also see how a few people on the forums have successfully shipped.

[EasternGirl]

Whatever. I wasn't complaining I was stating what I thought. I think that people can argue a point without being rude to other people. I'm not saying that we can't argue points on here...there is just a certain way of doing it that shows more respect for others than simply attacking people. And if you hadn't noticed I am not the only one that thought that the arguing was annoying. Like I said before..I really don't want to discuss this anymore...I was "complaining" because you are still arguing with me to argue that there is nothing wrong with arguing. Just read what I just said four or five times...or until you get it.

[twgrosmick]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides, and at the end of it there was a thread full of info and everyone learned something new.... Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

[ConcinusMan]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

Can't argue with that. That's a very perceptive statement.

This is going to be long, so please read it all, or read none of it.

I don't agree that either "side" is necessarily completely "right" or "wrong". Both "sides" are screwed in one way or another. If history teaches us anything it's that law is not necessarily synonymous with morality or what's "right". There are quite a few perfectly legal things which I (and others) do regarding this hobby that a lot of people consider "wrong" and those people very well could be "right".:cool: In that case it's up to us individuals to decide what course of action should be taken. Sometimes that course of action is either illegal, or legal. Regardless way you chose, it's not necessarily "right" because it's legal, or "wrong" because its illegal. People really need to understand the distinction but many people don't.

Just please consider that when someone feels they are under attack, they might respond in a way that can be considered "digging in" if you will. They might make themselves out to look like an azz, or an outlaw in the process. They might seem like they're saying their way is the only "right" way, no matter how "wrong" it can be. Just consider the things that took place during the American civil rights movement. A lot of perfectly legal "wrongs" took place. People had to choose a side. Both sides were hurt, but in the end, laws were changed for the better. Our hobby and industry is currently under attack and scrutiny. We don't know how things are going to turn out, but the battle is going to be ugly.

Now, I do try to leave it up to my customers to ask the questions, check their laws, and decide what they want to do, and whether or not they want to risk "bending" the law. (to buy, or not to buy, to ship, or not to ship USPS) I would never intentionally deceive anyone asking the right questions. If the snake they are about to buy is wild-caught, I not only tell them it is, I also tell them approx. where it came from. If they feel morally obligated to not only check laws in their own state, but also the state where the snakes come from, that is their prerogative.

The bottom line is, most of these laws are not being broken by the recipient. If their state allows unregulated importation of garter snakes, such as WY does, then they are not doing anything "wrong" as far as the law is concerned but if they were in WA they would be very "wrong" if you think that breaking a ridiculous law is "wrong". If they feel it's "wrong" to receive WC snakes from WA and OR because it's technically illegal under their ridiculous "umbrella" law, then that is up to the recipient. They can "squeal" and the main negative result will be that the snakes they own, could be subject to being destroyed, although that would probably only happen if they lived where I live.

As I may have mentioned many times in other threads, and therefore exposed myself to the risk of prosecution, ( I aint skeered ) there is a gray area regarding laws in WA. What I mean is, the law is written in black and white, but garters fall under the umbrella of "native wildlife" The enforcement is a matter of choice by each state. They only respond to complaints and choose on a case-by-case basis, whether or not is in their best interests to pursue prosecution. Every state does this, even in case of murder, rape, burglary, petty theft, etc. and sometimes still decline to pursue prosecution if it isn't "worth it" as in, not in the best interest of the state or "spirit" of the law.

Now, I know I just invited fate (the law) to come knock on my door. Not really my intention, but if certain people feel the need to report out of their moral obligation I am ready for that. I will either do time for it, in which case the "system" will just "laugh" at my charges and release me long before my sentence is served, or I will just sit there and do the time. There is one other very real possibility, and that is, they will find that there is not enough "hard" evidence to pursue prosecution in a timely and affordable manner and so decide not to pursue. Now I leave it up to those people who might be thinking about making such a report, to decide if I am deserving a worst-case scenario in which prison is a very real possibility. I know, you're probably thinking "get down off that cross, I could use the wood to build a new vivarium".:cool:

Just something for us to think about. Is what I do so much different than those before me? Not really. If people hadn't done what I do now, your coveted Puget Sound garters would not exist anywhere in captivity, nor would concinnus'. THERE'S NEVER BEEN A LEGAL WAY for them to enter the pet trade. We would just have to do without them. If ever a day came when those were protected under federal law, I think I would bow out. Funny though, how WA thumbs it's nose at Federal law, (regarding marijuana law) Well good for them. It's about time states stood up the feds. And if I must stand up to WA regarding our "rights" to keep a few non-endangered garters, then sobiet. I am willing to face the possible consequences. I don't want to, but if it's necessary I will.

All that being said, I am very much still willing to re-evaluate what I've been doing and adjust practices accordingly or just quit altogether.

[Artic Exotics]

I care not to get into the politics of the arguement but i must say that the reading of this last post did remind me of a quote:

An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. (http://www.wisdomquotes.com/quote/martin-luther-king-jr-30.html)

Martin Luther King, Jr

[Artic Exotics]

Naturally the good doctor was not referring to the collection/ importation / exportation of wild garter snakes but all in the same. I must agree that "morality" and "law" are separate concepts. Good thread here lots of info and I love to see the passion in people.

[ConcinusMan]

Passion leads to arguments, even wars and revolutions. Let's just please not let our different views on how to continue with our hobby lead to an internal "civil" war. Such activity can make the hobby as a whole better after a long struggle, or it can tear it apart and let the real enemy destroy both sides and then there will be no hobby, trade, or rights to argue about. "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" still applies. In that spirit, I'm still not dead-set an doing every thing I can to break the law but sometimes the laws are confusing/conflicting and/or unrealistic/unjust.

I would love to be completely compliant but sometimes due to the "minefield" of local laws and interstate exchange, the laws aren't so clear. You could be breaking the law and not even know it, all the while standing on your pedestal and preaching about complying with all laws. So, if I need to modify what I do in the best interest of the hobby as a whole, then I am still open to to suggestions and will try to make it better. If it turns out that what I am doing is frowned upon by the majority of those I interact with in the hobby, then obviously, I am "wrong" and will get out or change my ways.

[Greg'sGarters]

I ship with styrofoam and occasionally cold/heat packs.