Cloudy eyes w/Mouth infection?

[d_virginiana]

Sithis' mouth infection appears about the same, but starting yesterday I noticed his eyes have clouded over. This kind of worried me since I've read about cloudy eyes being a sign of a mouth infection getting worse. His mouth may be a little worse than it was, but still no discharge, and the gums are still pink. He ate some worm last night (with all the dirt squeezed out of it to keep his mouth clean) and begged for more, so he's not feeling too bad.
I also moved my equipment around a little bit, and have him closer to the heater with a bright bulb, so his temps are in the mid-80's now.

I can't tell if the cloudy eyes are just him getting ready to shed, or a sign of the infection getting worse. I'll get a picture up a little later. They both clouded over completely and at the same time, so I'm thinking it may just be shed related. I do wonder though since it has only been about a month since his last shed; of course at his size, he sheds pretty often.

Does anyone have pictures of what cloudy eyes due to infection look like? I'd appreciate something to compare it to.

[guidofatherof5]

I'd be interested in reading that paper/article. Never heard of that connection and certainly don't understand it.
Sounds like a normal shed about to happen.

[d_virginiana]

lol It was actually mentioned here. It was on the thread I posted over a year ago about Harley's mouth infection. I think the reasoning was that if the infection was caused by the gland between the mouth and eye getting blocked up it could start affecting the eye.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/9766-mouth-infection-baby-snake.html

[guidofatherof5]

There's a thread that got by me.:D I'll have to give it a read.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like a normal shed about to happen.

What he said ^^^

[guidofatherof5]

With regards to the shed in that thread I think it might have just been a coincidence. I've never seen a connection between lip infections and sheds but saying that I've never watched for a connection either. I suppose it's possible but without any concrete evidence I'll consider it a coincidence for now.
It's good that you are watching your snake so well. Keep up the good work.;)

[d_virginiana]

I was thinking eye-infections and lip infections could somehow be connected? I was reading over the old threads very late last night, so it's entirely possible (probable) that I got confused.

Probably just another shed, but I can't help being paranoid :rolleyes: Since earlier, it's starting to look more like he's just going into shed than anything sinister. His pink eyes definitely look different from my others when he's about to shed.

[EasternGirl]

I would think that an eye and lip infection could be connected...the infection could certainly spread through the blood or tissue. But the person who posted about cloudy eyes happening when the snake had an infection...sounds like a coincindence and perhaps the person did not understand the connection between cloudy eyes and shedding.

[d_virginiana]

Just a quick update; it was definitely cloudiness before a shed :rolleyes: His eyes are clear again today; it doesn't stay visible on him as long as with my non-albinos. Like, maybe 24 hours, where my others seem to be 'blue' for days. Infection doesn't really look any better; face is still very puffy. But no color change or anything, so that's good. He came out to beg for food today too.

I am going to put a small box with moist paper towels in his enclosure though. He seemed to be having some respiratory distress when he shed a month ago and the infection was barely noticeable. When he's ready to shed I want him to be able to get it off ASAP even if I'm not around.

[guidofatherof5]

Any chance we can see a photo. You say the face is swollen not just the lip?

[d_virginiana]

Nah, it's just the lip. The labial scales around it are swollen, making his cheeks look puffy. Here's a couple of pictures though.

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[guidofatherof5]

I still think you need to get the blood flowing but the final decision is yours.

[d_virginiana]

I tried using the needle the other night, but freaked out and stopped when I saw a piece of tissue come loose. I feel a little better about doing it now, so I think I'll give it another try. Maybe later tonight. When I do I'll get my husband to take a picture of the 'after' and put it up.

One question though... I could feel when the needle was touching his teeth when I tried it. Is that something I should avoid, or just part of the procedure?

[guidofatherof5]

Was it a clear piece of scab like material?

[ConcinusMan]

Nah, it's just the lip. The labial scales around it are swollen, making his cheeks look puffy. Here's a couple of pictures though.

74827483

That's looking worse than it was a while back. :(

Maybe you should get him to a vet and see what they can do.

[d_virginiana]

I didn't even think of it being a scab, but it could have been. I was being really careful, and hadn't even punctured his skin, and then all of a sudden that piece of tissue was just hanging there. It makes more sense that a scab would fall off all of a sudden like that than a piece of his gum...
I stopped because I didn't want to keep poking around if it was a piece of his gum. It's been several days though, and I haven't seen the loose piece of skin (or whatever it was), so either it was a scab type thing and fell off or it's healed up again.

About to go give it another shot right now...
Is there any amount of time I should wait after doing this before I feed him again, or just swab his mouth afterward? He's scheduled to eat tomorrow, but he could probably wait another day or two if he had to.

[guidofatherof5]

I'd say feed as scheduled. Waiting an extra day also wouldn't hurt anything.

[d_virginiana]

I tried again, and still no blood. I could feel the needle poking the skin, but I have sugar issues and my hands shake pretty badly. Same problem I had the first time. I'm actually in tears right now because I'm so frustrated. I could DEFINITELY tell that the needle was entering his lip, but nothing was bleeding, even when I tried to squeeze it a little. At one point it looked like some clear fluid was coming out, but I couldn't really tell.
There seemed to be a gummy, scab-like substance over it (not discharge, just the sort of covering you'd expect to see over any exposed area like that..). It came off, but it made it even more difficult to tell what I was doing.

I just worry that I'm tearing up the skin without actually doing any good. I put betadine on it right afterwards.

If I were to take him to an exotics vet, what would they likely do? I know antibiotics would be a life-or-death sort of thing and only a last resort, but would they do something similar to what I've been trying? I thought I'd give it another shot after last time, but my hands just aren't steady enough to do this safely.
I can get him to what appears to be an experienced reptile vet on Monday...

[d_virginiana]

Actually, just checking their website, I could potentially call in an appointment by tomorrow...

[guidofatherof5]

You can only do what you can do. Seeing some clear liquid come out is a good sign I think.
Are you treating with a weak tea looking betadine solution?
Snake seem very small to be given injectable antibiotics.
It becomes your call if you want to see a Vet. with this. Not a problem.
I think I will do a video on this procedure and post it on YouTube.

[d_virginiana]

On the thread I posted last year, the suggestion was to use a 10% betadine solution. I used that for Harley when she was about this size, and that's what I've been using for Sithis. That's the concentration the bottle I bought is at... Is that okay?
I had used hibiclens once or twice at full strength before I realized it needed to be diluted... I feel horrible about that, but it was a couple days ago and he doesn't look like he feels sick, so I'm guessing I didn't poison him. What is the appropriate concentration for that?

I think I'm going to give the vet a call and see if I can get him in tomorrow. They had sections documenting them doing repair on the shell of a garden snail and surgery on goldfish, so I figure they'd at least be able to do SOMETHING to help him out since they have a guy whose specialty is reptiles. I probably wouldn't agree to any sort of antibiotic injection unless it was a last resort, and considering he's still active and eating I don't think he's anywhere near that right now.

[ConcinusMan]

On the thread I posted last year, the suggestion was to use a 10% betadine solution. I used that for Harley when she was about this size, and that's what I've been using for Sithis. That's the concentration the bottle I bought is at... Is that okay?

It may be 10% betadine but what's the other 90% ? because it should just be water.

As for the hibiclens, (the ingredient in it that matters is 4% chlorhexidine gluconate) it's just as effective as iodine, the antibiotic properties persist longer, and it's not as toxic, and those are the reasons I use it. I don't really know the precise dilution since it's not for oral use anyway. Chlorhexidine comes in prescription oral rinses too, but at a concentration of much less than 1%.

I just put 8-10 drops in about 3 oz of water, for oral use on snakes. Mostly water, but enough of the medication to make the water nice and pink.

I don't think injections or a course of antibiotics is practical with a snake that small but I still think a vet might be able to do something that will help. At this point it doesn't look like the medication is getting to the infection. Looks like it's too deep. A vet can do something to open that up and flush out the infection so it can heal from the inside out. Do that, and antibiotics might not be necessary.

[d_virginiana]

Alright, I'll start doing that with the hibiclens. I can use that up to twice a day, right?
Just cleaned his tank to get rid of any dust that might be an irritant. At least I can keep junk from getting in his mouth.


A vet can do something to open that up and flush out the infection so it can heal from the inside out. Do that, and antibiotics might not be necessary.

That's what I'm hoping.
If I'm lucky I'll have a good update by tomorrow.

[d_virginiana]

Okay, so my husband called and got an appointment at the vet's for Monday, but I'm thinking I might not even need to take him in now.
I'm amazed at what happened just overnight. The labial scales aren't bulged out anymore, and the only thing you can see that looks like an infection is a tiny sliver of pink on either side of the mouth. I guess whatever I did when I was poking around with the needle helped something. I think I may have lanced something when I saw that clear fluid.

Also, he shed last night within just one day of going blue. Checked, and everything came off. I thought he must have been feeling bad when I went in to do my before-bed check of the room and found him still hanging out in his water dish, but I guess he was just getting his skin loose. Being about to shed might have been making his lip look worse too?

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[ConcinusMan]

That's looking good. Don't expect it to go back to normal completely. He may look like this forever. As long as it's not swelling up big like before, there's nothing to worry about.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks much better. You are right about the shed making it look worse. The shed was pulling the lip out and up.

Looks like you did a good job Doc.;)

[d_virginiana]

I'm glad he's looking better. I was really starting to get worried.