Duvernoy's gland (thought this was a good read)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Garters were long thought to be nonvenomous, but recent discoveries have revealed that they do in fact produce a mild neurotoxic venom. Garter snakes are nevertheless harmless to humans due to the very low amounts of venom they produce, which is comparatively mild, and the fact that they lack an effective means of delivering it. They do have enlarged teeth in the back of their mouth, but unlike many rear fanged colubrid snakes, garter snakes do not have a groove running down the length of the teeth that would allow it to inject venom into its prey. The venom is delivered via a duvernoy's gland, secreted between their lips and gums. Whereas most venomous snakes have anterior or forward venom glands, the Duvernoy's gland of garters are posterior (to the rear) of the snake's eyes. The mild poison is spread into wounds through a chewing action. The properties (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_Garter_Snake_harmful#) of the venom are not well known, but it appears to contain 3FXT, commonly known as three-finger toxin, which is a neurotoxin commonly found in the venom of colobrids and elapids. A bite may result in mild swelling and an itching sensation. There are no known cases of serious injury and extremely few with symptoms of envenomation.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Funny article and funny thread http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/5277-duvernoy-gland-5.html

[gregmonsta]

Some papers listed on this ol' thread - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/6722-learning-zone.html several links are down but the majority still bear fruit.

[Stefan-A]

Garters were long thought to be nonvenomous, but recent discoveries have revealed that they do in fact produce a mild neurotoxic venom. Garter snakes are nevertheless harmless to humans due to the very low amounts of venom they produce, which is comparatively mild, and the fact that they lack an effective means of delivering it. They do have enlarged teeth in the back of their mouth, but unlike many rear fanged colubrid snakes, garter snakes do not have a groove running down the length of the teeth that would allow it to inject venom into its prey. The venom is delivered via a duvernoy's gland, secreted between their lips and gums. Whereas most venomous snakes have anterior or forward venom glands, the Duvernoy's gland of garters are posterior (to the rear) of the snake's eyes. The mild poison is spread into wounds through a chewing action. The properties (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_Garter_Snake_harmful#) of the venom are not well known, but it appears to contain 3FXT, commonly known as three-finger toxin, which is a neurotoxin commonly found in the venom of colobrids and elapids. A bite may result in mild swelling and an itching sensation. There are no known cases of serious injury and extremely few with symptoms of envenomation.
Funny thing is, I wrote most of that in the early days of Wikipedia. Some of it is false. Well, probably false.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The part about the duvernoy's gland and them having to chew to work mild venom in to the bite wound is true. I don't know about the rest, but i still found it worth sharing no matter who wrote it. I have been bitten by garters plenty of times with no issues at all, but i got bit by one of my fl. Blue easterns and didn't want to injure her teeth so i just let her chew thinking she would let go, but i had pinky scent on my hand and she couldn't tell the difference so i had to run her under water to get her to let go. It was a painful bite once she got her rear teeth in and then it started swelling and bruising real bad. The swelling started with my finger and moved to my hand and up my arm and caused my lymph nodes to swell. The swelling and bruising lasted for about 4 days. It was painful and i thought i was going to have to go to a doctor, but after about 3 days the swelling and pressure started decreasing and i knew it was getting better. A little nip to warn off predators is different than a feeding response bite.

[ConcinusMan]

A little nip to warn off predators is different than a feeding response bite.

Exactly. The only time I've ever had a reaction (rash-like redness, itchy burning sensation) is when my hand was mistake for food and the snake refused to let go. I think it's the struggling and the snake's determination to swallow that which is struggling to get free, that the Duvernoy's gland secretions come into play. Simply washing the bite area thoroughly and using an antiseptic on the wound was enough to stop the symptoms. One should do that anyway if the skin is broken.

[d_virginiana]

Any time I've been bitten by garter or water snakes the area always bleeds far more than seems normal for such a small wound. Don't know if that has anything to do with the venom or the way their teeth are formed.

[ConcinusMan]

Just their regular saliva has anticoagulant properties. Getting saliva in the wound greatly increases bleeding and the amount of time required for it to clot. It's not the "venom" doing it. Just saliva.

[Stefan-A]

Just their regular saliva has anticoagulant properties. Getting saliva in the wound greatly increases bleeding and the amount of time required for it to clot. It's not the "venom" doing it. Just saliva.
Actually it is the venom. Venom without quotation marks, not "saliva".

[-MARWOLAETH-]

They don't have notched teeth like rear fanged snakes who use the teeth to channel the proteins into the wound.Instead the venom is released into the mouth and mixes with the saliva,by chewing the saliva/venom enter the wound.

please correct me if i'm talking rubbish

[hjelte]

Exactly. The only time I've ever had a reaction (rash-like redness, itchy burning sensation) is when my hand was mistake for food and the snake refused to let go. I think it's the struggling and the snake's determination to swallow that which is struggling to get free, that the Duvernoy's gland secretions come into play. Simply washing the bite area thoroughly and using an antiseptic on the wound was enough to stop the symptoms. One should do that anyway if the skin is broken.

I second this, I had a T.S Parietalis for a while, tried to bathe him and he wasn´t to impressed. When I was going to pick him up from the tub he bit my hand and latched on to the point where I more or less had to plie him off. This caused some itching and red rashes to appear on my hand, and also bleeding that seemed to go on longer than would be normal. Nothing serious all in all, but an interesting experience indeed :)

[EasternGirl]

An interesting topic. Steve recently sent me a book on medical uses of venom...awesome book. In the book the author does discuss the Duvernoy's gland and the fact that snakes with this gland can actually be classified as venomous, although they do little actual damage. The book cites a couple of cases in which people bit more than once...over an extended period of time...began to show symtoms, including systemic symptoms of envenomation. The author states that it is actually envenomation that occurs and not an allergic reaction (we actually had a discussion on here about this before). He states that the venom produces from the gland actually helps in subduing prey upon ingestion. I know that I am allergic to just about everything. Even carefresh makes me get red and itchy. But, I have been bit by my snakes many times recently...enough to draw blood...and I have never had any kind of reaction to date.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's the thing i've noticed with mine after being bitten many times that i never have a reaction, but this one time when she thought my finger was food and she chewed for at least a minute and worked her rear teeth in good and that's when i had a reaction and i have very few allergies so im thinking that it was envenomation. I cleaned the area very well with alcohol and put neosporin on it, but it starting swelling almost immediately.

an interesting topic. Steve recently sent me a book on medical uses of venom...awesome book. In the book the author does discuss the duvernoy's gland and the fact that snakes with this gland can actually be classified as venomous, although they do little actual damage. The book cites a couple of cases in which people bit more than once...over an extended period of time...began to show symtoms, including systemic symptoms of envenomation. The author states that it is actually envenomation that occurs and not an allergic reaction (we actually had a discussion on here about this before). I know that i am allergic to just about everything. Even carefresh makes me get red and itchy. But, i have been bit by my snakes many times recently...enough to draw blood...and i have never had any kind of reaction to date.

[EasternGirl]

Yep...I have heard of that. Actually, now that I think about it...the one time that Cee Cee got a really good strike in and bit me hard on the thumb, I do remember my thumb and hand itching a bit afterward...but nothing too bad. I chalked it up to mild envenomation as well. I have never had one of my snakes chew on me though...just quick strikes.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

74747475 7476

I didn't think to take pictures or do a thread about it until i talked to steve on the phone and he suggested i take some pics of the area, but this was like 4 days after the bite. I did get some pics, but at this point it was almost healed so it's hard to tell by the pics.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Two attachments didn't show up so here they are.:cool:

74787479

[guidofatherof5]

In that second photo, is that bruising on the palm ring finger area?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Yes! You should have seen it the day after the bite. I wish i would have got pics right after the bite.

in that second photo, is that bruising on the palm ring finger area?

[guidofatherof5]

The is a significant reaction. Any bites since? If so, how was the reaction this time. If so, where were the new bites.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What's funny is i fed her 2 large pinkies and reached in to get her water dish so i could clean it and giver her fresh water and bam she goes for a third pinky.:p (She knew what she was doing.)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have been bit several times since with no reactions, but none have chewed on me or got me with the rear teeth. It's just a simple strike and let go with a few scratches. If you look at the first bite pic you can tell it was a very deep bite.

[EasternGirl]

Looks like envenomation to me. You should have seen the big purple bruise on my thumb that time Cee Cee decided she was a rattlesnake and jumped across the tank and struck me really hard. In the book I was talking about, the author said that the person who was bitten by the garter was bitten several times over a period of time before the systemic reaction occurred. It was also a child. But, it makes it sound as though our bodies hold the venom somehow.

[jaleely]

An interesting topic. Steve recently sent me a book on medical uses of venom...awesome book. In the book the author does discuss the Duvernoy's gland and the fact that snakes with this gland can actually be classified as venomous, although they do little actual damage. The book cites a couple of cases in which people bit more than once...over an extended period of time...began to show symtoms, including systemic symptoms of envenomation. The author states that it is actually envenomation that occurs and not an allergic reaction (we actually had a discussion on here about this before). He states that the venom produces from the gland actually helps in subduing prey upon ingestion. I know that I am allergic to just about everything. Even carefresh makes me get red and itchy. But, I have been bit by my snakes many times recently...enough to draw blood...and I have never had any kind of reaction to date.

Very good post!

Yes they have duvernoy's gland, and rear fangs, which in a "threat" bite do not have a chance to "chew" with and envenomate you...however if they think you're food you're in for it!
Also the saliva being an anticoagulant is under speculation. I'll have to look that one up specifically for garters.

I have been bitten by my garters but they are still so small they don't even break the skin...and now are so used to their actual food they've improved their aim to go right for that lol

I have however been chewed on twice by one of my hognose snakes. They are rear fanged and have a duvernoy's gland with poor delivery as well (no hollow teeth or groves in the fangs to deliver into the wound). First time i let him chew too long because it was funny...and i wanted a photo LOL he was just a baby, and i didn't expect it...this was of course due to lack of education.
Second time he bit me, i was holding him while i cleaned out his cage and apparently....i still smelled like FISH from feeding the garters!!! He was much bigger this time, got a really squishy bite on my fatty finger, so it got right in the back there. I held him underwater thinking he'd let go...and just kept holding him thinking..okay dude it's not food, you need to breathe, let go! But he wouldn't!! Stared right at my face the whole time and all it did was make him bite harder. I finally had to have my hubby come help me unhook him from my finger (which was a last resort as i didn't want to hurt him).

Anyway, I get into this because their bites are the same as a garter's would be. So the first time, i had some numbing and swelling on my thumb near the site. The puncture marks actually got little blisters on them. There was no bleeding.
The second time...my entire hand had swollen up, almost to my elbow. There was immidiate swelling, and i took photos. No excessive bleeding. In fact no bleeding but just a tiny bit after we got him off.
He got to chew a long time, AND it was the second time i'd had the venom in my system, so the reaction was pretty strong.

Anyway, needless to say i learned a bit about the duvernoy's gland that day. I missed two days of work because i couldn't TYPE in the office LOL kind of not funny, but also kind of funny.
I'm much more careful with him now. The first time i didn't know what he was doing when he wanted to bite me, the second time i wasn't looking at him to see his interest. He's the little jerk i can't get to eat mice actually..he only wants FISH lol

[jaleely]

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo3991.jpg

This is how i got him off the first time. Needless to say it didn't work the second time lol
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo3992.jpg

[jaleely]

This is right after the second bite. ..about an hour later. You can see he got into the fleshy part of the finger lol
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/1.jpg

I think this was taken about three or four hours later.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/3-1.jpg

This was the next morning, approximately 11 hours later
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/2-1.jpg

Over the next day the swelling went up my forearm halfway, not a lot, but it was there. It took about two weeks for swelling to go down to this:
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4638.jpg

There was numbing in the bite area, however the real damage i recieved was due to the extreme swelling. There were broken capillaries in my finger and the back of my hand.
It was a good learning expeirence, and i treat him with more respect now than just a silly snake biting me. I'm glad he didn't get hurt....i took this photo of him a few weeks later (just showing him off here) http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4831.jpg

But the point of that photo is, i wanted him after his shed because he's a unique green....but he DID try to bite me the entire photo shoot! He's one of those "nom"-ers so he just kept nosing me then trying to open his mouth. lol little brat. I made him stop, snapped a photo, then gave him his meal. He's since learned that mama isn't food...but i still don't trust him lol

[jaleely]

Anyway, i would imagine the reaction would be the same from a good envenomation from a garter as they have the same gland that produces the venom.

[Selkielass]

I've seen more severe reaction shots from hognose bites than from garters- I think hognose venom is more potent, or more effectively delivered if those rear fangs get engaged.

Some beekeepers become sensitized to bee venom- it is an increasing reaction of the body immune system to the proteins in the venom.
Other beekeepers reactions decrease, and they eventually develop some degree of immunity. (Less swelling and itching, less pain although the sting itself still hurts.

[d_virginiana]

I've heard of some people becoming allergic to garter bites. Would the allergic reaction just look like envenomation, or does it have different symptoms?

[ConcinusMan]

Anyway, i would imagine the reaction would be the same from a good envenomation from a garter

Not really. The worst reaction I've see was Chantel's reaction and it's not nearly as bad as the hognose reaction. From garter bites, I've only experienced itching, slight burning sensation and redness similar to a mild allergic reaction. No real swelling or pain, and the reaction only happens from feeding response bites with lots of chewing and salivation. Never had a reaction to defensive bites, even if they break the skin. Also, the reaction goes away within an hour if you just wash the broken skin.

[ConcinusMan]

You should have seen the big purple bruise on my thumb that time Cee Cee decided she was a rattlesnake and jumped across the tank and struck me really hard. In the book I was talking about, the author said that the person who was bitten by the garter was bitten several times over a period of time before the systemic reaction occurred. It was also a child. But, it makes it sound as though our bodies hold the venom somehow.

I think your bruising was from anticoagulant properties of garter saliva, rather than a result of Duvernoy's secretions. Those are usually reserved for struggling prey during feeding. Our bodies don't "hold the venom" but produce histamine and antibodies to fight it. So, the next time you get bit, you could have a more severe reaction resulting in anaphylaxis. That's what usually happens with copperhead bites too. First time is usually not fatal. Second time in your life will probably kill you but it's not the venom that kills, it's your body's reaction to it that can kill. (anaphylactic shock)

Hognose owners should have an "epipen" (Epinephrine Auto-Injector) handy, especially if they have already been bitten and had a reaction before.

[guidofatherof5]

My last bite reaction. Minor swelling, lots of itching.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data/500/medium/bite6.jpg

[Selkielass]

I've heard of some people becoming allergic to garter bites. Would the allergic reaction just look like envenomation, or does it have different symptoms?

With bee stings, any localized reaction is considered a 'normal' reaction. Unpleasant, but normal.
If you begin having trouble breathing, or experience swelling in areas not adjacent to the sting, especially swelling in and around the eyes, face neck and throat, then a true allergic reaction may be occurring and medical attention should be sought.
First line treatment is benadryl or other antihistamines and possibly an epii-pen if one is available.
reactions can remain minor but uncomfortable or progress into anyphylactic (sp?) Shock so getting to a dr quickly is a good idea.

[jaleely]

Bee stings react on the nervous system differently than snake venom.

Epipens are actually completely useless against hognose bites, as well as a lot of other snake bites as it is envenomation not an allergic reaction.
You actually have to take a specialized anti-venom, which is made from the actual venom, in most cases.

Many people think it's the saliva or that it reacts like an allergic reaction, but it's just not true.

I imagine what someone else said that the hognoses are a bit more efficient at delivering the venom is true, and that's why the reactions can seem more severe. It's unknown whether people can gain a sensitivity after multiple exposures, but many owners who've been bitten and had reactions think so.

I still don't know, as the circumstances for any of my bites either left no trace, or were extremely different.

[Selkielass]

You are quite correct.
The situations I described were in regards to an allergic reaction to honeybee venom.
With bees, it is the allergic reaction to proteins in the venom that may become life threatening, not the venom itself, unless a truly horrifying number of stings are received.

I assumed a person could develop an allergy to garter or hognose proteins, in a manner similar to bee stings and other allergens.
Am I mistaken?

[chris-uk]

I assumed a person could develop an allergy to garter or hognose proteins, in a manner similar to bee stings and other allergens.
Am I mistaken?

A person can develop an allergy to almost anything, if the immune system identifies it as a foreign body and allergic reaction can be developed. I can't see any reason why proteins in garter saliva (whether venom or other proteins) couldn't cause anaphylaxis. Repeated exposure to an antigen tends to increase the severity of response, so it would be more likely in someone who has been bitten several times.

[jaleely]

Unfortunately, no one is resistant to venom (by definition Venom:Any of various poisonous substances secreted by certain snakes, spiders, scorpions, and insects and transmitted to a victim by a bite or sting. Venoms are highly concentrated fluids that typically consist of dozens or hundreds of powerful enzymes, peptides, and smaller organic compounds. These compounds target and disable specific chemicals in the victim, damaging cellular and organ system function. Snake venoms, for example, contain substances that block platelet aggregation (causing bleeding) and that prevent the release of acetylcholine by nerve endings -causing muscle paralysis).

However an allergy (An abnormally high immunologic sensitivity to certain stimuli such as drugs, foods, environmental irritants, microorganisms, or physical conditions, such as temperature extremes. These stimuli act as antigens, provoking an immunological response involving the release of inflammatory substances, such as histamine, in the body. Allergies may be innate or acquired in genetically predisposed individuals. Common symptoms include sneezing, itching, and skin rashes, though in some individuals symptoms can be severe.)

Can be prevented, or blocked. (epipen)

Not everyone is allergic to "things" but can develop an allergy to things...however everyone is affected by venom.

It's kind of like the misconstrued difference of venom, vs poison, or aggressive, vs defensive. People use them interchangeably, however they are very different : )

[Spankenstyne]

"Unfortunately, no one is resistant to venom"

Mithridatization is something you may wish to research.

Mithridatism
Tolerance against a toxin, induced by gradually increasing its levels in the body, a technique which is similar to tolerisation therapy in allergy medicine
Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.

An interesting read for some:
http://timfriede.com/articles/Venom-Antivenom-and-Immunity.pdf

[guidofatherof5]

Bill Haast Article (http://www.cobras.org/article.htm)

The Official Website of W.E. "Bill" Haast (http://www.billhaast.com/)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Bill haast was a great man and he will be missed. I had the pleasure of meeting him a few years back at a reptile show he was such a great guy.

[guidofatherof5]

I didn't know he passed.:(

[BLUESIRTALIS]

He passed away a little over a year ago.


i didn't know he passed.:(

[EasternGirl]

I should have thought of what you said, Richard...of course, it would be similar to an allergy in which the second exposure caused a more severe reaction. Interestingly, I believe the book that Steve sent me mentions researchers studying hognose venom or something about hognoses. I will look it up and get back to you all on that. I am thinking that what people think are allergic reactions to garter venom are actually symptoms of mild envenomation. And speaking of people building up tolerance to toxins...I came across this while researching my paper...Snake Man Steve Ludwin - Injecting Venom - Bizarre Life - Bizarre Mag (http://www.bizarremag.com/news-and-videos/latest-features/10075/snake_man_steve_ludwin.html)

[jaleely]

So, you have to build up a tolerence to something that would otherwise affect you. And, because you can build that tolerance it's not an allergic reaction, but a different chemical reaction in your body. If you don't build the tolerence, then you will be affected.

[ConcinusMan]

it's complicated. Sometimes being previously exposed (but that's in tiny amounts, built up gradually over time) builds immunity. Other times, it can cause you to develop an allergy to it and so, if bitten again, a severe allergic reaction can take place. In that case, it's your body's immune response that is dangerous. (anaphylactic shock)