WC vs CB

[@ndy]

Hi All

I see allot of snakes are WC and I have been wondering, can you collect garters freely in the USA?

Here in SA all our indigenous snakes are protected and you need special permits to keep indigenous species, some are you are not even permitted to keep!

So here is my Question, can we list Pros and Cons between WC and CB?

Can everyone list there Pros and Cons for keeping WC vs CB

Ill start

CB

1. Pro - Snakes are healthy 99%
2. Pro - Parents are Known
3. Pro - Snakes are disease free 99%
4. Pro - Age known 99%
5. Pro - Known gene pool (sometimes)
6. Con - limited Gene pool

WC

1. Con - Snake may carry disease
2. Con - age unknown
3. Con/Pro - Unknown gene pool

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Taking animals out of the wild affects those that feed on them and those that are eaten by them.
Most don't adapt to captivity.
Taking too much can reduce genetic variation in population giving them less of a chance of survival long term.

@ndy,do you have any pics of the native South African herps?

[infernalis]

WC

Pro - Less likely inbred
con - Get caught gathering on my property and risk bodily injury by angry landowner

CB

pro - No risk of angering landowners
con - inbreeding likely

[@ndy]

Not my Photos all photos from google, i don't have permits to keep locals, i only keep CB exotics

Lamprophis capensis

http://www.mpushini-fauna.com/resources/Brown house snake.jpg

Puff adder

http://www.popularpets.net/snakes/pictures/african-puff-adder/african-puff-adder2.jpg

Spotted Skaapsteker

http://www.helderbergnaturereserve.co.za/wp-content/uploads/SpottedSkaapsteker.jpg

Cape Cobra

http://capesnakerescue.co.za/wp-content/gallery/cape-cobra/img_6958-large.jpg

And there are many many more local species.

[@ndy]

WC

con - Get caught gathering on my property and risk bodily injury by angry landowner



Now that I Like!!

[infernalis]

Now that I Like!!

My "natural vivarium" is 40 acres, and I don't allow intruders.

I feel I can learn so much more observing them in the wild, as captivity denies many behaviours that are natural.

No greater thrill than seeing the same specimen show up season after season.

[ConcinusMan]

I would say that most of them around here do adapt to captivity rather quickly. The ones that don't are the minority.

I think the main reasons WC get a bad rap is the way they are collected and marketed. You can't just gather up as many as you can, throw them in overcrowded tubs, ship them right out, and expect them to make decent captives.

What I do is only get a few at a time so I can monitor them closely and not overcrowd them, watching for signs of illness and making sure they all accept food regularly. Any that habitually refuse to eat or eat only sporadically get released back where I found them. Those that appear healthy, don't stress out, etc., then get medicated (two different meds) for internal parasites, which they do carry 99% of the time.

[SilasBannook]

I would like to add the following Pros for wild caught

WC Pros
Pro - Cheap way to enable new people to learn about these amazing creatures
Pro - Provides strong genes to CB breeding pool (cite the challenge with San Francisco Garters in Europe)

I know I would never have invested in a snake as a pet initially. Since having cared for my initial snakes I am totally hooked and have shared my new found passion with my kids and even done several presentations in their elementary classrooms. I think that is a very big Pro for support of wild caught snakes.

{Edit} - I see Infernalis already mentioned the strengthening of genes... I suppose I think that as worth mentioning twice. :p

[Stefan-A]

WC, con: Collected irresponsibly both from an animal welfare standpoint and a nature conservation standpoint.
WC, con: Extremely high mortality rate. For every WC ending up as a thriving pet, dozens die.
WC, con: Mistreatment common. Cheap animals, indifferent owners.
WC, con: Prevents domestication. Believe it or not, captivity exerts selective pressure on the animals we keep.

Few animals are inbred to a degree that would warrant WC. When it happens, it's typically intentional and easily avoidable.

[Selkielass]

I'd guess like to add the category 'self caught'.
Most of my snakes are self caught. In Michigan a fishing and small game hunting license allows me to have 5 non-protected native snakes.
I sometimes gift some of my catch to others, just as I share other wild game with friends and family.

The animals I bring home are often injured, and I have learned a lot from these guests. Those who seem to adapt well to captivity get caring homes. Those that don't have are returned to suitable habitats.

I have three captive born snakes. I know nothing about the parentage, genetic history, purity or health before I found them- pet trade animals are as much a mystery as wild caught.

I have had detrimental approximately 30 snakes pass thru my care. I've been fortunate enough to have had only two death- one badly cat mauled. The second stillborn. Over half of the captive born babies I have given to others have failed. For unknown reasons, to thrive.

I don't think its a simple equation.

[d_virginiana]

My oldest snake was almost certainly WC (er... well, very close to it anyway). His mother was WC, and when the person realized she was gravid they gave her to the local pet store where she had her babies a few days later. Even very old, he is quite healthy. However, I'd be surprised if any of his siblings lived longer than a few months due to people not knowing how to care for them. My WC reptiles definitely seem to be hardier than my CB reptiles.

It depends on where you're at in the US as to what native species are legal to keep. Each state has its own set of laws. For example, a snake that lives in both NC and GA could be legal to own in NC but not GA.

[ConcinusMan]

Each state has its own set of laws.\

Individual counties or cities too, sometimes. For example, there are a few counties in CA that do not allow collecting/keeping native garters at all, even with the fishing license (required by the state to legally collect unprotected garter species)

[MCwyo]

Stephan, I respectfully disagree with your statement that WC will be mistreated because it's a "cheap pet". I do not think price has anything do do with neglect. People will pay $1500 for a chiwiniepoodoodle (whatever) designer breed dog, then dump it in a shelter once they get tired of it. People will spend hundreds of dollars on an exotic reptile and a complete set up, and then their "pet" will slowly starve to death because they only remember to feed it once a month. When it eventually dies, they will shrug and say "Oh well, it was just a lizard, I can replace it." At any rate, a typical garter only runs $10-$20, and compared to other reptiles their set up is pretty low-cost and low-maintenance. It's a cheap pet weather you buy it or catch it. It's all down to the owners belief/attitude about pet care.

I think the main con for WC would be parasites, as well as the issue of weather or not the snake can adjust to captivity. Obviously there is also a large difference between catching and keeping a few individuals who adjust well to captivity, as opposed to going out and collecting every specimen you can possibly find.

I have never purchased a truly captive bred reptile, so I cannot comment other than I would think quality would depend on the breeder. From a reputable breeder, you should be getting a healthy, disease & parasite free snake, and you should be able to find out the lineage and genetic information. From a poor quality pet store or a poor quality breeder, you may get a malnourished or sickly snake, parasites, or poor genetic quality.

For me personally, when it comes to my states native species of snakes, I would prefer to go out into the field and harvest them. There are actually three species of snake that I would like to collect from the wild, aside from garters- smooth green snake, black hills red-bellied snake, and the yellow bellied racer. I have captured several racers, but released them because they did not adjust. The other two species I have never seen and I think will be a challenge to find. In WY, no permit is required for collection, keeping, selling, buying, or trading native snake species, with the exception of the pale milk snake, the rubber boa, and the midget faded rattlesnake.

I have caught wild reptiles, amphibians, insects, invertebrates ect my entire life. As a child I would catch (and 99.9% of the time release) hermit crabs, jelly fish, garters, anoles, skinks, turtles, gekos, taratulas, horned lizzards, crawdads, bullfrogs, leopard frogs, tree frogs, wood frogs, salamanders, toads and even (unknowingly at the time) a gila monster. I think that the experience of having close encounters with these creatures has given me a deeper apriciation for the need for habitat conservation as well as a deeper apriciation and love for wildlife of all shapes and sizes. I share my love and enthusiasm for wildlife every year at a local elementary school, by doing a Wildlife Exploration presentation. This year my WC vagrans will be joining the presentation and I will be doing a little highlight on reptiles & anphibians.

[d_virginiana]

I think when Stefan was talking about cheap WC animals, he was referring to people who either raid nests or capture gravid females and keep all the babies, then sell them for next to nothing; like $2 for five baby snakes. Many of these get used as feeders, or go to people who truly don't care.

I agree that there is the possibility of neglect at any price level, but it is much more likely that a one dollar snake will be mistreated than a $3,000 python.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm pretty sure Stefan is talking about people that don't give a damn about the snakes and just round them up for money. They don't take proper care of them. And many people who don't have the animals interests in mind, are trolling for cheap animals.

[@ndy]

I'm pretty sure Stefan is talking about people that don't give a damn about the snakes and just round them up for money. They don't take proper care of them. And many people who don't have the animals interests in mind, are trolling for cheap animals.

I agree, thats the reason all our native species are protected and you face heavy fines or jail time if caught collecting / Selling / keeping without the correct permits, in some provinces here you even need a transport permit for your reptile. If people are allowed to collect freely it decimates the local population into extinction. Look at the Dwarf Bitis species for instance

[Stefan-A]

Stephan, I respectfully disagree with your statement that WC will be mistreated because it's a "cheap pet". I do not think price has anything do do with neglect. People will pay $1500 for a chiwiniepoodoodle (whatever) designer breed dog, then dump it in a shelter once they get tired of it. People will spend hundreds of dollars on an exotic reptile and a complete set up, and then their "pet" will slowly starve to death because they only remember to feed it once a month. When it eventually dies, they will shrug and say "Oh well, it was just a lizard, I can replace it." At any rate, a typical garter only runs $10-$20, and compared to other reptiles their set up is pretty low-cost and low-maintenance. It's a cheap pet weather you buy it or catch it. It's all down to the owners belief/attitude about pet care.
Hate to disappoint those who speculated that I meant the collectors. Those were covered by the first two points, but not the third. I do mean the people who end up keeping them as pets.

Yes, people who invest large amounts of money in an animal may well neglect or dump it. They're not the rule, though. Yes, people who catch wild snakes may take outstanding care of them, we have people here on the forum who do exactly that. They are not the average owner of a WC animal, they're the absolute cream of the crop. The average owner is the kind who found an animal crawling across the driveway and decided to toss it in a bucket with some grass and twigs and keep it until it's dead he's bored. If it's lucky, someone will toss in something completely inappropriate "to eat". The average owner of a WC is the kind of guy who picks up a "northern garter" from a tub of 10 (out of 100 originally caught) at the local pet store, brings it home and tosses it into an aquarium with some sand in it and some crickets to eat, from which it either escapes on day 1 and dies, or it just dies. Sometimes, the parents just let it go when the kid gets bored with it. Did I mention that the typical owner of a WC animal is just a kid? It does not occur to most people to find out how to properly care for an animal before buying it, or to question what pet stores tell them about the animals that are sold, or to look up more detailed information about their care online. Yes, these are things that may happen with CBB animals as well, but when you have nothing invested in something that can be easily replaced at virtually no cost, people don't bother taking care of it. It doesn't matter if it's an animal or something else; cheap stuff is treated as if it's disposable.

[infernalis]

It does not occur to most people to find out how to properly care for an animal before buying it, or to question what pet stores tell them about the animals that are sold, or to look up more detailed information about their care online. Yes, these are things that may happen with CBB animals as well, but when you have nothing invested in something that can be easily replaced at virtually no cost, people don't bother taking care of it. It doesn't matter if it's an animal or something else; cheap stuff is treated as if it's disposable.


this statement right here, so true it hurts, and with many different species of animals.

Not so long ago, Iguanas were given away as prizes at carnivals, Free lizards that NEED highly specialized care.

Savannah & Nile Monitors are sold for as little as $10 up front, yet they require very large, expensive caging that they never get.

Smooth Green and Rough green snakes commonly sold for $10 or less never last very long at all once sold.

To me, it's ALL legalized poaching and nothing more.