Jon's Garter Snake Thread ( Suzi )

[Foxrun402]

I figure its time for me to stop consistently updating my welcome thread and make an official one... So here it is... I will keep this post updated with anything to do with Suzi!

Here is the basic setup / Terrarium

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The Terrarium/temporary_zps0f4a51d0.jpg

Here are some shots of Suzi...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zpsb4942b13.jpg

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zpsbae0897b.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zps03cd437d.jpg

[Foxrun402]

And after her first time shedding with me...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zps89df12ba.jpg

Eating pinky for the first time unscented!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/th_Firsttimeonapinkandenthused_zpsf94cace7.jpg (http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/Firsttimeonapinkandenthused_zpsf94cace7.mp4)

And Viciously attacking night-crawler chunks! (her favorite)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/th_FeedinginseperateTerrarium_zpsb58c129c.jpg (http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/FeedinginseperateTerrarium_zpsb58c129c.mp4)


Also have some security lol....
Live feed from inside her terrarium (http://foxrun402.shorturl.com/)

as I said though... I will keep this post updated and am no longer updating "Hello from Nebraska"

Thank you!
- Jonathan :cool:

[ProXimuS]

She's a very cute little girl! I like how she puts her tail up the glass sort of in the beginning of the worm video:p I couldn't get the livefeed link to work...

[Foxrun402]

I just have been playing with that link... I'm not sure if it is working now or not I have been tampering with the HTML and playing around with the code trying different embedding options lol

[ProXimuS]

Yea, still didn't work for me...Sorry I couldn't help you with that kind of stuff:p Still, nice pics and videos!

[Foxrun402]

Yeah It has been a pain lately for some reason lol

[Foxrun402]

So today I am trying to spend time with her and get some tail photos to help me determine the gender and she was just chilling in my hand finally relaxed and stopped jogging across my hands wandering like she does.... and then she looks right at me flops her tail off the edge of my hand and
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zps231289ce.jpg

all over me lmao! Damn you Suzi! at least it didn't look too runny so that's a good sign I guess.... lmao

Here is a tail photo... I'm thinking girl...

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zpsef645ddf.jpg

Sorry for the somewhat blurry pick but im not joking she wags her tail like a dog sometimes... I cant control that lol

[guidofatherof5]

Fecal matter and urates. Looks good. Nice job Suzi :D

[thamneil]

Poop is always a good sign :)

She looks like a girl to me!

[Foxrun402]

1 less spot to clean outta the terrarium lol

[guidofatherof5]

Suzi is a .................................................. ..............................girl.:D

[ProXimuS]

Definitely looks female:)

[Foxrun402]

well I am glad that we got that sorted out lol... Got "him" home and was amped about setting up "his" new home so.bad I didn't think to check the gender on her lol... I am also bored watching windows 7 re-install because of a bad ATI driver... Sad long story lol... But to make it a happy ending... Suzi got out for a snack and she still looks on the thin side and is growing length very fast.... So I had her chasing some pinky with the tongs and she was so cute running after it with her mouth open like rawwwr lol! I'm glad she readily accepts them without scenting... I must be lucky lol



Posted from my HTC 7 Pro cause that's all I have for now... And now you know im addicted to this thamily when im stalking threads on my phone :D

[ConcinusMan]

Girl.

Live feed link isn't working.:cool:

[Foxrun402]

Girl.

Live feed link isn't working.:cool:

Hopefully I will have that fixed shortly... Finally got Windows 7 back up! gotta do some updates then It should be golden. ;)

[Foxrun402]

I fixed live feed but it is currently dark and she is curled up inside the base of her tree... Its at least fixed for now

Suzi's Terrarium Live (http://foxrun402.shorturl.com)

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps8a828988.jpg
Dinner and some heat light... tonight she ran up to my hand and stole a worm chunk too when i wasnt looking ! lil pig!

[guidofatherof5]

I'll say it again. Good Suzi!

[ConcinusMan]

I see her basking ATM. Kewl.

I think maybe I'll try something like this soon.

[Foxrun402]

Well it was fairly simple to set up I am only using a 720p webcam and "Yawcam" freeware

They also make wireless webcams but I don't feel like shelling out $ on that right now so it is just positioned on the top of her screen and I can move it to where she is at at the time (unless she is in a hide). Or I can just kinda set it at one end viewing across the floor... kinda kool that I can just whip out my phone even at walmart and spy on her... lol :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I know it's easy. I've done it before. I just don't have a webcam for the desktop, which is wired internet.

And all the wireless internet devices here have built-in cams. So, I'll have to get a cam for the desktop first.

[ProXimuS]

I can see her tail:)


Are her lights on a timer?

[Foxrun402]

yes they are but I was just kinda messing with the other side of the thing fixing where she pooped so i gave her that light and she darted to it like oooooo whats up over here lol then i put the cam on her

[ProXimuS]

I was just curious, because it was late/dark here when I posted about the light, but then again I don't know how the times differ from here to Nebraksa...:p

[Foxrun402]

yah they are on a timer that begins at 6:45am and they turn off at 8:00pm. I figure that sould basically simulate daylight for her...

I really kinda want to get a hood I can put on the top going across the screen for extra lighting... this one dome hood and basking bulb is ok but leaves the other side of her home in the dark... I do have a desk lamp with a 25w bulb that puts out sort of a "yellowish" ambient light on the other side... but there is a noticeable change in lighting in the middle of the tank... and when she gets under the full spectrum light she seems to be active and curious... under the light from the desk lamp she just calms down and passes out... kinda odd.. like "mood lighting" lol

[Foxrun402]

my toy morkie was sitting here crying becasue she couldnt see suzi lol... She has watched me handle her and build her home and she get so excited to see her when i mention Suzi's name she runs over to the tank and she puts her paws up and just her little eyes can see around the floor... she cant jump up there but I figured I would prop her up there and show you guys ;)

Molly
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps4d1da6c8.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Cute:) I've never seen a Morkie like that, she really looks like a Yorkie. My dog also knows, if I say "Snakey?" she goes and sniffs towards the cage:p

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zpsfcfa7dda.jpg

Suzi just wanted to say Hi! lol she has been peering out at me all morning she probably hears me typing and wonders what im doing lol

[guidofatherof5]

They are curious little creatures. Looking good Suzi.

[snake man]

Awsome looking snake looking forward to reading these updates.

[kueluck]

So how do you resist her? How can you NOT take her out when see looks at you with those big round beautiful eyes? I know I can't. I'm learning how to type & eat on-handed.

[Foxrun402]

I do take her out almost every day now even when feeding her I handle her for a little bit before hand so she gets to know me... she has calmed down pretty good now and is settling in nice... she tried fishing today and that was fail lol... she needs way more practice she kinda didnt like the water lol!

[Foxrun402]

So today I let Suzi sleep ALLL day.... Woke her up when I got off work to find her rather dull and slightly blue in the eyes.... Time for another shed.... So is it common for little ones to shed around 1 time each month? cause her last shed was on november 5th and we are creeping up to december 5th... all of her red is very hard to see this time too, and her belly... is turning kinda blueish.... wondering if this is normal? do sirtalis usually have lots of color changes? I will try and wake her up in a few for more pics.... around shed time she gets super lazy... as would i

[Steveo]

That sounds about right. I have six living together that are ~5 months old and I still find 1-2 skins per week, on average.

Colors go dull/greyish before a shed. Sounds normal to me.

[Invisible Snake]

It's best to leave snakes in opaque phase alone, during the shedding process when their eyes go blue their vision is very limited and they get easily stressed out.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

They do change a lot during shed http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11074-shedding-process-san-francisco-garter-snake.html

[Foxrun402]

Yah today her eyes look a lot more on the blue side... she is also acting skittish but has not eaten yet... I will offer her some nightcrawler chunks since they are her favorite and keep the pieces somewhat small and easy to eat... I'm not to worried about her now though her first shed was 1 piece and perfect so no history of bad sheds with her =D woohoo I cant wait to see how she looks this next time around!

[kueluck]

Just don’t worry if she doesn’t take the food. Mona won’t eat until after she sheds, the other three eat no matter what, if foods around, it’s soon to be gone. Also my Zena and Sadie will come right into the hand even when in shed, they don’t care, they seem to seek out the attention. Just post pics when she’s all shiny and new.

[Foxrun402]

She was on her way to go back to bed... then I kinda said loudly... WORMS!!!!! and she turned back like really where?!?!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps6213b188.jpg
LoL!

[guidofatherof5]

They are little eating machines.

[Foxrun402]

So proud of Suzi! she let me handle her... Came to my hand... Stayed calm while we went to get a cutip... Got her shed aid coat put on effortlessly 1 handed! she was just awesome tonight!
All while blue! I didn't have much fear of her stressing because she ate tiny worm bits from my palm yesterday while beginning to blue! I use this product as I said in another topic just to be sure she has an easy time shedding =) and It's worked so far so good!

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/18321_514692728548638_1217428552_n.jpg

we hung out for a little bit, then I put on her shed ease and worked it in pretty good letting her run through my fingers, set her back home in her moss hide and she just kinda looked at me like why did you put me back? I almost wanted to take her back out but I know she needs her beauty sleep!

[kueluck]

Don't ya just love it when they come to you instead of having to go to them. I like the jar idea moist hide, the rock looking one I have with the hole on top they don't use.

[Foxrun402]

Well Suzi went clear on the 29th and still has not produced a shed yet, but this morning when I woke up I decided that I would check on her and found her digging around in her moss hide, so maybe its about that time! I have been leaving her be for the last 3 days and just kinda eyeballing around in there for signs of a shed and have not found one yet...

Yesterday when I woke up I noticed her adjusting her jaws a little like they seemed uncomfortable so I figure the shed was constricting her a little so I thought she might have shed yesterday, but I guess not... Hope all goes well today I am beginning to worry a little... :(

[guidofatherof5]

Yawning and flexing the jaws is a normal thing they do.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/yawn.jpg

[Foxrun402]

Yes but is it normal for then to not have shed 3 days after clearing up from blue?

[guidofatherof5]

Yes but is it normal for then to not have shed 3 days after clearing up from blue?

Yes, I've had snakes take up to 10 days after opaque is over.

[Foxrun402]

Ok well I will just keep a close eye on her activity and keep this updated... That made me feel a little better, She is STILL in the moss hide I believe but I don't want to startle her or freak her out checking ... I did see her poke her head out enough to see her eye and I couldnt tell if she had shed in the moss hide or not because i saw very little of her... then she flicked her tongue and went back under lol

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps4d4b46bc.jpg
Like I said she has been in there ALL day so far ever since I woke up about an hour after her lights came on... and then... She showed herself... I saw most of her upper half glistening and new! Her face looked so clean and her top stripe was bright yellow almost neon!!! I believe she is in there doing her job! she looked very clean and shiny new, but then again is in a wet moss hide... I startled her a little with the camera but she stayed out enough for the pic!

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zpse13bea85.jpg
She came back out a bit here... What do you guys think? she look fresh? I will dig around in the moss hide later to reach a verdict on that =)

[guidofatherof5]

Too difficult to tell in the photo.

[kueluck]

And I thought I was overprotective. ;) If you want a good look of her, lure her out with some food then take out the hide and check it for shed.

[Foxrun402]

Will have to do it she loves nightcrawlers lol... and I got her fresh ones /grin

[Foxrun402]

I found her shed in her favorite hiding spot... she must have just been finishing up in the moss hide! No shed issues... looks clean... pics soon but at the moment I am have some issues with heating in her house lol.... will be much better when the heating pad arrives i hope

[Foxrun402]

Just a quick update... Suzi did shed as I mentioned and she is looking good now and loving her new arrangement I have chosen for her!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps531376f2.jpg

She loves to hide and I figured with the new setup she has TONS of hiding spots... yay for me when I need to see her lol... but she is happy!

Her tank was getting pretty good and toasty on the warm end at 106F (yikes) I solved this using a 40w soft light in the 5.5" mini dome.. outside temp is now sitting at 87 in direct light.. and 83 in the hide underneath the light =D
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zpse1f7f49c.jpg

Now that her temps aren't the equivalent of an oven... She is much more active and exploring everything... the above picture was the first time i have really ever seen her in the plants! and she was going from 1 to the other and back again it was funny lol! All is well ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Suzi looks awesome and so does her home.:)

[Greg'sGarters]

And after her first time shedding with me...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New pics of Suzi/temporary_zps89df12ba.jpg

Eating pinky for the first time unscented!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/th_Firsttimeonapinkandenthused_zpsf94cace7.jpg (http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/Firsttimeonapinkandenthused_zpsf94cace7.mp4)

And Viciously attacking night-crawler chunks! (her favorite)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/th_FeedinginseperateTerrarium_zpsb58c129c.jpg (http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding Time/FeedinginseperateTerrarium_zpsb58c129c.mp4)


Also have some security lol....
Live feed from inside her terrarium (http://foxrun402.shorturl.com/)

as I said though... I will keep this post updated and am no longer updating "Hello from Nebraska"

Thank you!
- Jonathan :cool:


Very beautiful snake!

[ProXimuS]

She's so cute! She looks like my Tallie's non-albino twin:)

[Foxrun402]

Well was time to go and get pinkies and I had to pick up the thermostat from the post office... so I cleaned the place out got rid of all the old substrate and dumped in a whole fresh bag for her to have a clean home... picked up a 2nd digital therm for the cold side.. and then a carpet for the bottom of the terrarium as well... They suggest using a carpet so you don't spill directly on to the glass causing a crack with the heating pad, and also it prevents a snake from digging into the substrate and resting on the glass directly... better safe then sorry I guess :rolleyes:

Now everything is done.. I am just wondering about the lighting and it getting too hot with light and heat pad on.... So I took away the basking lamp and left her with the florescent light

Setup Complete....(for now lol)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps2417843a.jpg

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps02f4ad70.jpg
Just wrecked a bunch of night-crawler chunks... and then let me pick her back up and put her in her pad... I stuck her in the hide with the thermostat/heat pad and she didn't move she just snuggled up in there like its gonna be her new favorite spot... :D

[ProXimuS]

Suzi is such a cutie:)

Looks like your warm side says 78 degrees. Could probably afford to be a little warmer.

[ConcinusMan]

Or not. It's not that critical. I prefer to create a wider gradient, (bigger difference between coolest end, and basking area) but that's me.

[Foxrun402]

I have noticed that she WILL select an area she find suitable... I am not too concerned about it now though with the thermostat in place the temps are very steady!

75 cold and 91 hot and the hot always seems to jump around from 89-91 but im cool with that! I took her out today after feeding her 2 days ago and she was awesome today... she got really freaked out by my guitar dunno why but that was funny... The whole time I had her out i was just cringing that she was gonna poo on me lmao... no signs of anything in the tank yet... probably in her moss hide.... lately she thinks its a toilet! lmao

[Foxrun402]

Suzi is such a cutie:)

Looks like your warm side says 78 degrees. Could probably afford to be a little warmer.

Yah that was prior to having everything setup proper... I found that using too much substrate makes a heating pad almost pointless! So I had removed much of the substrate from around where the heating pad was leaving about 1" of substrate on the floor... and had built it up higher the farther away from the heat mat I got to ensure the heat wouldn't transfer to the cold side to easy.. Now I have it steady and the Thermostat rocks!

Thank you for the observation though Emily!! lets me know your looking out for us! :D

Today I had her out and she was doing good for me! Hope your having a good day ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Yah that was prior to having everything setup proper... I found that using too much substrate makes a heating pad almost pointless!

But it doesn't. Still, shouldn't be more than two inches deep on top of the heat pad anyway.

[Foxrun402]

Just another random update... She just ate a whole night-crawler and was being feisty and didn't want to stay in her feeding container. She insisted that she go explore everything... Sorry girl I have some things to do like clean your tank and ugh... laundry... We will hang out after a bit though ;)

Pre-night-crawler-ownage (probably best picture of her yet !)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps15ac3e09.jpg

And after the meal was devoured!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps6f946ce9.jpg

She took it down like candy!
In other news, we got lots of snow here in Lincoln yesterday and last night... sun shining now... hope it all melts away!
Also, I hope all of you are having a good day !

- Jonathan

[ConcinusMan]

In other news, we got lots of snow here in Lincoln yesterday and last night... sun shining now... hope it all melts away!


Not quite going to all melt today it looks like.

http://i50.tinypic.com/333zono.jpg

[Foxrun402]

So is this the right stuff... and no its not seasoned... just looks that way on the package...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsbc04d5d2.jpg

Never tried to give her any fish yet wondering how often it should be in her diet if at all. She will readily snatch night-crawlers or pinky parts no problem at all...

[guidofatherof5]

I would suggest against any prepackaged fish. Especially any product of China.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9914-note-concerning-pre-packaged-frozen-fish.html

[snake man]

Do you have a local fish market?

[Foxrun402]

not that im aware of I haven't looked into that, but what about her fishing for say some small zebra danios in her water bowl? I wont get any frozen fish after that thread! yikes! glad I only fed her pinks and worms so far now!

[snake man]

With any live fish there is a higher risk of parasite, to be honest I would just stick to night crawlers and pinkies rather than take any chances, when I go on vacation there are fish markets there and I stock up for my snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

As long as that package of tilapia has only "tilapia fillet, water" for the ingredients, it's probably OK to use. Just don't use anything from walmart. It all has Sodium phosphates in it, "to retain moisture" which is deadly to snakes.

[Foxrun402]

I'm glad I asked before I decided to try it! Thanks everyone for the input!

[Foxrun402]

Update time...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps0d9f4157.jpg

She just shed this morning and I was lucky enough to be in the room when she was in the process! She even let me watch without stopping and she did see me and gave me a glance then continued.... I will have to be getting her some pinkies today, she was off food for a week and a half probably because of shedding cycle... Today she came up to the glass after her shed as if to say.... FEED ME! So I'm off to the pet store for pinks! woooohoooo....

More pics of her shiny and new later!

-Jonathan

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to seeing some photos.

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps774f1c80.jpg

This is after I gave her a pinkie tonight she was pretty active all day and feisty when I gave her food lol!

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking T.s.p.

[kueluck]

Sooooo pretty she is.

[snake man]

Nice looking guy.

[Foxrun402]

She is getting very long at just around 17" now im wondering if she should be thicker or not but then again, I don't want her to be overweight and have her movement hindered because of this. She is wicked fast and I like that about her... It gives her character as she races from one spot to another lol. I currently take 1 pinkie cut it in half, then cut the halves in half .... leaving 4 pieces that are decent size... she gobbles them down like it nothing from a feeding tray... Should I be trying to give her more then that at 1 time? she is around 6 months now

[Selkielass]

If she wants more, try offering low fat foods like worms and fish, until she has a bit of a bulge, or seems satisfied.
My snakes that got fat did so on a diet overly rich in rodents. They became quite sedentary, and its been a long slow process getting them back to a healthy build.

[ConcinusMan]

Not all fats are created equal. And depending on what type of fish you're using, fish are often very fatty. Even more so than pinkies. Salmon is very fatty. Silversides are too. They're just a type of smelt. The native Americans around here used to dry them and use burn them like a candle. They're that fatty. I don't think it's so much about the fat content that makes snakes overweight anyway. Pinkies are simply very dense food and if they're being overfed on pinkies, their body mass reserves are going to max out quickly especially since captive snakes don't have to expend any energy to find the food.

[Foxrun402]

No local fish market... where else could I get fish suitable for her to eat?

Edit: and I was meaning I have only really tried to offer her 1 pinkie and she doesn't appear to be getting anything but longer lol... she has no build to her she is very slender and doesn't seem like she puts on much weight but she does eat everything I give her and probably would eat more if left in a tray with her to eat at her own free will lol

[Foxrun402]

Photobucket was being crazy and wouldnt let me upload this, soon I will setup a youtube channel...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=536137496404161

Let me know if that works... video of her graduating from pinki parts this morning. =)

-Jonathan

[guidofatherof5]

Looks good Jonathan. You got a mouser there.:D

[Foxrun402]

Well lets see how do I start... I re-arranged her pad again and today I completely scrubbed it out and used wipe-out and dried it with paper towels and a blow dryer... Gave her all new substrate and then a few new things to play on... this is probably the last few things it'll really ever need... it looks pretty awesome in there now...
All new moss for the dry sleeping spots and the moist hide (change the moist one most often because idk if its a bathroom or not but just sayin, lol) and I secluded the water dish a bit underneath that riverwood log so she has a birdge!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zpsa78bc05d.jpg

But she normally sheds by the 10th... and I haven't found ANY evidence of a shed! =/ just wednesday I offered her a pinkie... BLAM! GONE! she ate that whole thing so fast! I'm not sure if t is a growing thing or not but I also have not found her opaque that I have noticed at all... maybe I'm just being worried but I am kinda attached to her!

Here are pics I got of her today just after I got her pad set back up and clean and tidy!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps5562d6f5.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps4664878f.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps377474c5.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps4ed2821a.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zpsd559957f.jpg
I just don't know what to think at this point... She goes into that moist hide ALL the time too even when she dosen't need to shed lol... she never stays in there for long periods of time but maybe 30 minutes to an hour at times... So I know thats not a problem... and there was no shed pieces in there...

Hopefully soon =(

Do they always usually shed on the same schedule?

[kueluck]

She is so pretty. My two babies use to shed just about once a month, but now that they are getting older and growing up, they don't shed as often. I DEFINETLY no expert on this, but my guess is as they reach adult size they shed less often. As long as she is acting normal, eating well and pooping normally I wouldn't worry about it. Just enjoy her.

[chris-uk]

They don't shed on a schedule. And if those pictures are today, she doesn't look like she's due to shed any time soon. The time to worry is if she goes blue then doesn't shed within a week.

[Foxrun402]

Thanks guys that makes me feel better, I will just enjoy the time I have with her, Hopefully it last's a long while yet =)

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good.

[ConcinusMan]

she doesn't look like she's due to shed any time soon. The time to worry is if she goes blue then doesn't shed within a week.

Not exactly. They can go blue for just a couple of days, or a couple of weeks. It can be very cloudy or just a little. Then suddenly one day, the cloudiness clears up. That's when they should shed. AFTER they go clear again. They will still look rather dull at that time but not cloudy. After they go clear they will shed right away or it could take a few days. it certainly shouldn't take longer than a week after going clear. If it's been longer than that and they start looking wrinkly, then worry.

Looks to me like she's going to shed any day now. Like she's got done with the cloudy part and will shed any time now.

[Foxrun402]

Well here we go again... lol... She still has not shed... and she has not shown any signs of weird activity... I'm thinking she was having a major growth spurt becasue she is much bigger now then the last time I posted.... I also swapped her moss out for the ZooMed brand and its the same color as her aspen bedding... I thought this was nice because it would make spot cleaning a little easier... She seemed to be mad at me for that... and looked into her moss hide... looked back at me... and then went into her tree and hid =( spoiled snakey!

Today I got off work and came home to feed her, but I figure I will wait a little bit because she finally got over it and went into the moss hide! (thank god)

she has stepped it up on her food though and she eats like a pig still and now after eating she climbs out of her feeding tank into my hand to put her back in her place!
I will add some more pictures of her here in a little while im still uploading them to photobucket =)

As always I hope you're all having a good day!

And to Steve! I'm so glad you got to keep tank! That kicks ***!!!! (Sorry I haven't been on much been super busy)

-Jonathan

[Foxrun402]

Pictures... Taken within this last week

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps766d0470.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpscdea908f.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpsb85a1a5a.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps636d4e4b.jpg

And Meet Cindy...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpsd82e76f7.jpg

This is my buddies Corn Snake he bought because he fell in love with Suzi...
This Friday... we fed Cindy and she normally is nonchalant about it and just slowly grabs and creeps away with her pinky...
This time instead of using a feeding tank.... we put her food in her living quarters... she got mad and struck at the tongs... and DESTROYED 2 pinks!

Territory thing? maybe? lol!

[Foxrun402]

Here are some more of Suzi

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps166810bb.jpghttp://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpsca2ccd61.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps26e6513c.jpg
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps774f1c80.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

Suzi's looking good!

[guidofatherof5]

Suzi's looking good!


Agreed.

[kueluck]

Suzie is such a pretty girl. That's for the updated pics.

[Foxrun402]

So she has gotten way bigger then my first time in this forum.... New feeding tank time... BLAM!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps43105387.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps43105387.jpg.html)

And After dinner tonight... look at that belly and that happy girl with room in there to move... =)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps57aa6827.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps57aa6827.jpg.html)



If she doesn't like Football... thats ok with me... but it looks good!

[guidofatherof5]

I like it and the bulge in her belly:D

[Foxrun402]

A glimpse into the detailed miniature paradise Suzi lives in.... just cleaned it all up and gave it new water as usual =)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps28148780.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps28148780.jpg.html)

Then I felt that her feeding tank was pretty boring with just the carpet and dishes... Spruced it up a bit
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps183558b4.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps183558b4.jpg.html)

Then fed her 2 nighcrawlers in her new feeding area and got that on gopro... will chop that up later and get a link to it...

Typically... she ate her dinner and i placed her back into her home, she goes straight to her warm hide... curls up in it... pokes her head out of some dry sphagnum in her hide (basically for padding) and rests her little head on that rock and spys on me...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps02e948b1.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps02e948b1.jpg.html)


She seem's to be doing great, no sign of blue in her eyes and I've been watching like a hawk... =)

[guidofatherof5]

Don't say "hawk" in front of the garter snakes.:D

[Foxrun402]

Finally!!!!!! She has not shed since the beginning of February! She is Opaque! And here eyes are BLUE! Deep Blue!

I will keep you guys posted I am very excited and somewhat relieved!

[guidofatherof5]

Good news, can't wait to see the results.

[Foxrun402]

Just walked into the room... she is shedding as I type this... =) I feel a late night snack session is well earned... She is 2 days overdue to be fed... I am so happy right now haha! =D

[guidofatherof5]

It's always a good feeling when things go well. I hope she enjoys he food.

[Foxrun402]

Well here she is after shedding... asking for food....
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsa1fee2c0.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsa1fee2c0.jpg.html)

I made her a new much bigger moist hide today with vent holes all the way around it and a few ways in and out... (all edges rounded)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/5a90b2fc-44a3-4401-9700-495dfddd0503_zps66772dc7.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/5a90b2fc-44a3-4401-9700-495dfddd0503_zps66772dc7.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps29bd4f60.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps29bd4f60.jpg.html)

At first she was like why did you do this? Then after she got inside of it and realized how much more room she really had... I think she loved it!

She was a little curious about it while I was putting it into place so since she was in a good mood I took her out and gave her a massage with shed ease... then not more then 20 minutes later... she shed! head piece to tip of the tail she didn't miss a scale =)

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps94827512.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps94827512.jpg.html)

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps150ee314.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps150ee314.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps9acd2c0e.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps9acd2c0e.jpg.html)

And as I said... She was rewarded with some food, I only cut them in half this time... gave her bigger pieces of night-crawler this time around =) she was in heaven!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsfa6c37a4.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsfa6c37a4.jpg.html)

Thatta Girl!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps898d3bfe.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zps898d3bfe.jpg.html)

[rickymar81]

Nice looking girl :)

[guidofatherof5]

Well deserved reward.

[Invisible Snake]

Looking good! Also looks like she scored a touchdown :P

[Foxrun402]

Thanks everyone, I was really worried about her over the past 2 months... I got far too used to her shedding around once per month, Guess she isn't a baby anymore, and will shed when she pleases sheesh!

I have noticed that she loves the extra room in her moss hide now, she is in there right now just hangin out... I never let her stay in there for prolonged periods of time though due to scale-rot being a possibility... I'll kick her out of it and force her to dry off a bit here and there, but always find her right back in it lol...

[Foxrun402]

Just some updated pics that I took of her today.

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps75925514.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps75925514.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps90013e01.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps90013e01.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps93679ba4.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zps93679ba4.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpse14ea9e8.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Fresh%20Pics%204-1-13/temporary_zpse14ea9e8.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Love seeing photos of Suzi.

[kueluck]

I reeeealy like your Suzi, she's such a pretty girl. Red sided are one of my favs.

[Foxrun402]

Well Today she was scheduled to eat. She was thrilled about that and almost leaped from my hands into her feeding tank at her worms!
I fed her 2 DMF Night Crawlers, and needless to say they where gone faster then I could blink! So I just added some sheets of paper and took a couple shots after she ate today.

I love how after you feed them It gives you a glance at the future, and what she may look like as she gets older. =)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zpscd8ab749.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zpscd8ab749.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zps166521d4.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zps166521d4.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zps5c7c9a71.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Feeding%20Time/temporary_zps5c7c9a71.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

I see Suzi is still sporting that dried tail tip or do I have my snakes confused?

[Foxrun402]

Yep that's her, I wish I could get my hands on a better camera for a night I would get some detailed photos of her, I may have to see if I can't borrow one from a friend. I'm odded out I found some weird things about her the other day but I figured maybe it was because she had just shed and needed a little time but here are some pics see what you can make of it...

This is under the fluorescent UVB light:
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zps7f0f886b.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zps7f0f886b.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zps2dc5b51a.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zps2dc5b51a.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zpsa818089a.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zpsa818089a.jpg.html)

This is under a basking lamp (normal light)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zpsfb5f028b.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Weird%20scale%20issue/temporary_zpsfb5f028b.jpg.html)

I'm not sure what to make of it, but as I have been watching her It seems to have somewhat just gone away, Mind you the shed was full and intact head to the tip of the tail! I still have it as well. I'm stumped. :confused:

[guidofatherof5]

That looks like dried worm slime to me.
Take a warm wet washcloth and see if it will wipe off.

[Foxrun402]

Ahhhh! I never thought of that! It seems to have gone away, I placed her back into her moss hide with some extra water into it to moisten it up and seems to have done the trick. I wasn't sure what that could have been lol!

I was just outside though and found this little guy wandering around... Seems I do have them closer then I think lol I put it back with some fresh water after taking the picture... Wasn't too sure if I should let Suzi demolish him or not, not sure if the water will help or not /shrugs lol
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpse913fb0f.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zpse913fb0f.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Slugs = good eats.

Stop worrying and enjoy the wonderful friend you have there and I don't mean the slug.:D

[Foxrun402]

Suzi gives fishing a shot. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUCP2aZny4)

Old video never uploaded or showed I don't believe... Anyways...
This was her first attempt at fishing... and she wanted the nightcrawler piece more then the Zebra Danio... But! She tried to get the Zebra then got mad and had enough of working that hard for food and stormed off to bed... LOL

I didn't notice until now but it really looks like she's paying attention when I talk to her lol, I wonder if she is?

[Foxrun402]

Tomorrow will be Suzi's 7th month living with me, and she will be 9 months old. Today I went and got her a new hide and some fresh pinkies at Petsmart. I figure that since she is coming along just fine she needed something new and exciting!

Picked up this hide and was going to get the bigger one but that'll have to wait til I upgrade her 20 gal long to something bigger. It just wouldn't fit =(
But this one is just as well and it looks nice in there I think.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zpsfdfda81b.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zpsfdfda81b.jpg.html)

Here is a full shot... TONS of hiding places, literally!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps719c56c9.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps719c56c9.jpg.html)

And I also instead of giving her just 1 pinkie... Gave her two!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps573ec6ab.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/The%20Terrarium/temporary_zps573ec6ab.jpg.html)

And she was kind of funny... She attacked one and threw it off the dish... then was like whatever... and then devoured the other one still on the dish... I have not seen her do this before.. Was quite entertaining =)

Hope you are all enjoying this beautiful weather like I am.

Gone Fishing
Jonathan


Edit: lol... She already went into that new tree house and claimed it her own. =)

[Sonya610]

So you have two separate tanks set up for her? One for everyday and the other for feeding? Fancy!

Sheesh I just throw paper towels down for feeding.

[Foxrun402]

Yeah she lives in the 20 gal and eats in her old 10 gal she grew up in lol... Figure this way she wont try to eat me when I get her out to hang out with her lol ;)

[Foxrun402]

Had a few things to do today and I also hung out with Suzi today... was holding her and thought about an old picture,
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps481bca97.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/New%20pics%20of%20Suzi/temporary_zps481bca97.jpg.html)

It's an amazing feeling knowing she has grown from that picture to this one taken today about 20 minutes ago.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsdeab18ca.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/4-30-13%20Shed/temporary_zpsdeab18ca.jpg.html)

And look at those eyes from today! I didnt notice them when I was coaxing her out of her moss hide until she was in my hand, at that point I would have felt bad not at least saying hello and just leaving her there. So I took her out even in opaque, I know they shouldn't be under stress while in this state, but she was very calm and relaxed! last shed was 4-30-13.... So its 5-22-13... and she is about to shed again.

[guidofatherof5]

Shedding/growing like that means she's doing very well.

[Sonya610]

She is beautiful! I love the warm colors on her.

[Foxrun402]

Everything I know about caring for her I have gathered from you guys, and this community. If not for all of you I'm not sure how it all would have turned out. Thank you all for being here is all I can really say to that! I really appreciate how we are all somewhat "thamily" =)

[Steveo]

Some snakes don't seem to mind being held when opaque. I think the familiar scent helps to keep them relaxed. I don't see any harm in it if she's not stressed by it.

[guidofatherof5]

I think your right Steveo.

[Sonya610]

Everything I know about caring for her I have gathered from you guys, and this community. If not for all of you I'm not sure how it all would have turned out. Thank you all for being here is all I can really say to that! I really appreciate how we are all somewhat "thamily" =)

I read your first post...unless I missed something I gather Suzi was wild caught by you or a friend?

If that is the case I would say she is also very very fortunate that you took the time to research and find the forum! I am no expert on Thamnophis....I joined the forum 2 years ago when i decided I wanted to learn about keeping the little angels and also find breeders. I wish more folks that find/catch wild garters would do what you did and research care.

[Foxrun402]

I didn't have much knowledge about them except I knew that they where a friendly species of snake and harmless to us basically. Anyone I hear about that gets scared of a Garter is just silly. When I was in South Dakota fishing, my buddie noticed her and pointed her out but I didn't see her until I decided to go wander around away from the river. I was walking around in sand similar to a desert style climate without the temperatures to match it due to winter being so close. Most Garters with any common sense would be back and forth from a hibernaculum to keep warm and only while its warm outside. It was cold! and there she was trying to escape my footsteps thunder attempting to climb stairs she couldn't reach the top of the first step!

I picked her up very careful knowing she must just be a baby, or very close to one! She was about 6-7 inches long when found wandering about! :D
Everything I have read has lead me to believe CB snakes are mostly in much better health then a WC snake from the get go. Fortunately for her I gave her a pretty badass house based of the knowledge you guys have provided here and anytime I have a problem or something odd/new happens, I express it with all of you before anyone else in the world knows about it! ;)

I'm just happy she is doing well in captive life and has adapted so well! I owe it all to you guys! :D Thanks!

[Foxrun402]

She has done her job!
This is when I saw her after I got home fishing the other night! Peeking around her tree spying on me, but she looked good!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps01b9b848.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps01b9b848.jpg.html)

Discovered this inside her tree... It was all twisted together and mangled but I managed to get it all undone and it was a nice complete shed. Nose to tail tip.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps54275e2e.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps54275e2e.jpg.html)

So then I had to take her out for a little bit.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps2e2c8469.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps2e2c8469.jpg.html)

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps604ab33e.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps604ab33e.jpg.html)

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps37aadda6.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps37aadda6.jpg.html)

[Lowfur]

She looks beautiful! I love how their color pops out after they have a good shed! My Nessie gets really green! (T.Marcianus)

[guidofatherof5]

Suzi is looking good. Does she ever go outside?
Some natural lighting photos would be great. ;)

[Foxrun402]

No, she hasn't been outside much but I can definatly make arrangements for that! She just ate today so here within the next few days I'll set up her photobooth outside for some nice natural light photos!

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to it. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

Everything I have read has lead me to believe CB snakes are mostly in much better health then a WC snake from the get go.

Sorry that your reading misled you. It's just not that simple.

[Foxrun402]

Sorry that your reading misled you. It's just not that simple.

Yes, but considering a snake that has been treated for parasites/worms gives birth its possibly less likely the babies will be as bad or worse then before treatment of the mother. in theory anyway

I guess it is also possible they are in worse shape as well but would think from a snake that has had proper vet visit's would produce healthier young, guess this is all still just based on chance though.

[guidofatherof5]

It's a two sided coin and both sides hold advantages over the other. Both sides also have disadvantages.
I guess in many cases it boils down to which is stronger, the advantages or disadvantages.
Just my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

It's a two sided coin and both sides hold advantages over the other. Both sides also have disadvantages.

Exactly. But to say a snake is healthier or will produce healthier offspring just because it's CB instead of WC is a bit absurd. There's no hard data to suggest that's true at all and it's certainly not what I've experienced. In fact, some species/morphs are so inbred that outcrossing with WC snakes is exactly what they need to improve their overall health and genetic diversity.

[Foxrun402]

Interesting really... I was more or less stating that a living creature that has had proper doc visits and been taken care of properly would most likely be in better health then that of a wild version which has not seen a doc at all! But, I see where you are coming from too. There are a lot of angles to this... now has me leaning the other way about being wild and thus gaining a better immune system because of the fact you're involved with much more then a CB snake would be... Just keeping my mind open to idea and exploring this world as much as I can! Lots of stuff to learn =)

I did however get Steve pictures today in 'Natural Light' and I must say.... They turned out better then most the others!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps4d8f100d.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps4d8f100d.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps7d49e8a4.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps7d49e8a4.jpg.html)

She hated being in there. So I picked her up and she practically posed for you!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Natural%20Light/temporary_zpsf7e12c1d.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Natural%20Light/temporary_zpsf7e12c1d.jpg.html)

Now she is eating and those DMF night-crawlers are getting much bigger.... I liked seeing that!

[guidofatherof5]

Suzi is looking good. Thanks for the photos.

[Foxrun402]

I was pretty well amazed how much different the lighting made on her appearance! Thank you for suggesting that!

[Foxrun402]

Updated tail photos... She was only about 6-7" long the first time we all tried to determine male or female... Well now she is much bigger at around 26-27"

today we hung out for a good 45 minutes trying to get this tail photo... she has to wrap her tail around everything in fear of falling or something!
So every time I tried to get this photo... I had to hold her with 1 hand and use the camera and soon as my 2nd hand went away she would wrap all around my wrist....
Pain in the butt she is at times, but always happy and calm while I'm holding her!

Chillin'
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps27ab92e2.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps27ab92e2.jpg.html)

Tail photo: (best I could do)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps087972f2.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/Natural%20Light/temporary_zps087972f2.jpg.html)

Male or female? Figured cant hurt to take another look!

[guidofatherof5]

Female, still.

[ConcinusMan]

I was more or less stating that a living creature that has had proper doc visits and been taken care of properly would most likely be in better health then that of a wild version which has not seen a doc at all!

Again, that's overgeneralizing. None of the WC snakes I ever owned over the years ever saw a vet and many lived in good health to a "ripe" old age. Some of them I'm sure even carried some type of parasites. However, the particular population I get many of mine from now seems to have pretty bad parasite problem so a proper deworming (which I do myself, guided by a zoologist on how to do it right) and sometimes combined with antibiotics (for flagellates) is imperative. otherwise their long-term health and captive survival a crapshoot. But yeah, there is a lot of things that wild snakes can carry that they just can't live with in captivity when you add the initial stress of captive life so I address those in the initial few weeks following capture. Things that CB snakes usually don't have. The result of adressing these things right after capture, is that around 85 percent of them stay healthy and do well long term. If I didn't do that probably only around 40-50% would even make it at all, let alone stay healthy long-term. On the flip side, CB snakes which are many generations removed from the wild and bred selectively for certain traits such as color can, and often do, also get the "good genes" (such as parasite tolerance, cold/heat tolerance, large litters, immunity to certain pathogenic diseases, etc.) selected out of them unknowingly, which can make them actually inferior to WC and basically just not as tough. You have to consider there is constant pressure on the wild population so the opposite happens. Any that don't have that tolerance die before they can reproduce or are otherwise unsuccessful at reproducing. There just tends to be more genetic diversity (mostly very important "invisible" genes that breeders overlook) which is why it's so important to outcross your lines with wild snakes every few generations even if there are no visible signs of inbreeding depression. There, I know it's off-subject but there's some of the advantages/disadvantages Steve mentioned. I believe there's a "WC vs. Captive bred" thread here somewhere (and other places on the web) you should read to sort out the myths from the facts.


I did however get Steve pictures today in 'Natural Light' and I must say.... They turned out better then most the others!

They always do. The problem most likely is that you had the white balance/color balance set wrong for your indoor lighting, or set to "auto" and most affordable cameras just suck at adjusting it right on "auto" or they default to adjust for natural daylight. That just won't work with artificial light unless it has a natural color balance. I like mine because even if none of the settings work well in a situation I can manually adjust it /w preview but it still works best when I take my subject outside on a cloudy day or in the shade.

[ConcinusMan]

Male or female? Figured cant hurt to take another look!

I don't know man... the others' are saying female but I think that's questionable. When I'm not quite sure/undecided it usually turns out they are male but then again, the body is somewhat bulky for a male red-sided.

[Foxrun402]

And she is nearing 30" as she grows continuously....

Edit: I did a bit of research and found a guy that works for A-4 Animal Hospital and would sex her for me, but he recommended she be a little over a year old and of decent size before she is brought in....

[ConcinusMan]

Since I'm sure he's just going to probe, then yes a little more growing would be good because even the smallest probes you can get might be too large for her if she's in fact a "he" instead.

[Foxrun402]

Well Its been 3 days and Xena is now well established and is always at the glass at 3:00pm for her daily feast... I will be putting a better gap between meals as she grows, but right now she is a baby, and on the thin side when not full... She loves to eat though and will get plenty here!

Here is how the setup for her looks at the moment. I will be keeping a close eye on her and she will probably be quarantine for 4 or 5 months to get her size up. I wouldn't risk putting a baby with Suzi yet she has the tendency to strike at my hands when im just cleaning around her... geesh... lol
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps4a975972.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps4a975972.jpg.html)

And some pics of Xena... I will from now on post updates for her and Suzi here.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsa8984150.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zpsa8984150.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps6cf40567.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps6cf40567.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps294cc798.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps294cc798.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps9f97ca47.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps9f97ca47.jpg.html)

[Foxrun402]

Constantly growing, changing, and looking different every week...

Suzi is behind blue eyes again....
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsee9e78cd.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zpsee9e78cd.jpg.html)

She has grown so much! It amazes me that she has been so good for me. Despite the fact the will still false strike me if she doesn't want to be bothered :rolleyes:

I took her out and showed her Xena through the glass today...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps688abc14.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps688abc14.jpg.html)

They both butted heads against the glass in attempt to say hello to one another. :D
Xena is no longer eating twice a day and is now eating every other day... She is filling out nicely and since she has been here I can already see that she's growing nicely. ;)

[Foxrun402]

Xena is due to shed again already...
Should be today or tomorrow... buuuuut....

Suzi is fresh and just ate again today... (pic during feeding earlier today)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsc2826bcc.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zpsc2826bcc.jpg.html)

She is about due for a bigger viv :D

[guidofatherof5]

Always good to get a Suzi update.

[Foxrun402]

I spy something with my eye... that looks like.... Xena shedding!


Edit: She is done! I freaked out and shut her into a moss hide... because I thought she missed a spot that tore... but it turns out it was stuck so some of her fake plants! :o

Good girl Xena!

[Foxrun402]

I tried to be fast enough to slip the pictures into the post about her shedding but I wasn't fast enough.

Here she is after her shed today...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps0960e790.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps0960e790.jpg.html)

And in her favorite spot after I put her back home...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps1b62ef62.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps1b62ef62.jpg.html)

:D

[guidofatherof5]

Nice.
Be aware of that hole size as Xena will grow quickly.;)

[Foxrun402]

Yah thats the same tree hide Suzi used as a baby... It's been cleaned but... That hole used to be a part of the branch.... simply got mad at them hiding up there and took a hacksaw to it... now Xena always hangs out up there lol

[Jsld]

hey john.... if u dont mind me calling you that i am VERY new to the whole garder snake thing and have my tank setup and wanted to know if sand will affect them or if i have to do special thing with sand or owuld it be best i just replaced the sand with woodchip
With hope Jsld

[Foxrun402]

I'm not sure sand would be a good idea for a garter... I know some species of lizards use calcified sand and what not to simulate a desert climate, but most of the people on the forum stray away from it unless for a photo shoot... I use Aspen Snake Bedding from petsmart simply because I like how it looks when the viv is cleaned up and taken care of evey other day, Some people use shredded newspaper or newspaper pellets... Just want to be sure it has a good absorbency and will catch most feces/urates the snake will produce.

A good look-through on this forum will definitely help with most of the questions that may arise.
Husbandry (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/)

I would also make a post concerning your substrate question there as well. Then everyone will be able to help you with making a decision best suited for your garter =)

Don't forget to introduce yourself here:
Welcome Lounge (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/welcome-lounge/)

And welcome to the Thamily ;)

[chris-uk]

hey john.... if u dont mind me calling you that i am VERY new to the whole garder snake thing and have my tank setup and wanted to know if sand will affect them or if i have to do special thing with sand or owuld it be best i just replaced the sand with woodchip
With hope Jsld

Generally sand gets a thumbs down. The caresheet has the pros and cons of the common substrates, Jon has already linked to it. Say "hi" in the welcome lounge.

[Foxrun402]

Well.... Found this one yesterday in Suzi's tank about 30 seconds after she was done... and she nipped at me a few times as I tried to remove it to let me know she was ready to eat again lol!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps5f84fcc6.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps5f84fcc6.jpg.html)
This is what made me want to find her a much larger tank... I feel she is steadily outgrowing that 20g long :(


Also... Baby Jackson is under my wing again while my bro-in-law is out of town, so he says "Hi Everyone!" ;)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps0dac1dee.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps0dac1dee.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Very cool Western Painted Turtle.

Painted turtle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painted_turtle)

[Foxrun402]

a fresh new Xena...
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps3b99ca8d.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps3b99ca8d.jpg.html)

Suzi also shed again, then got acquainted in her new home. It has much more room and she doesn't look crammed in there.
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps04481ca0.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps04481ca0.jpg.html)

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps96961566.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps96961566.jpg.html)

Xena will be joining Suzi very soon the 3 month period ends September 16th but I might wait an additional month for her to get a little bigger.

I hope you are all having a great day!

-Jonathan

[jwolfe152]

beautiful creatures :D

[Foxrun402]

Thanks J I'm just worried that Suzi has been alone for almost 10 months and may have become territorial to her surroundings... I hope they both get along once they are put together... I will be sure I have the day off when I do put Xena in with Suzi so I can monitor their behavior together.

[guidofatherof5]

Garters aren't territorial that I know of. They as a rule enjoy/put up with other garters.
In all my years of keeping garters I've never seen them refuse company.

[jwolfe152]

from the stuff i have read here and some papers i cant see them being territorial considering them brumating in a den like they do and then the mating balls. how many other animals have you heard of mating in such a way? most of the time its a fight between animals like walruses and seals, very vicious fighting. although i could be wrong i have not had them for long or observed them in a communal setting.

[Foxrun402]

Yes but since a baby she has been a "Lone Ranger" so to speak... and aggressive at that lol...

Maybe Xena will make her open up a bit and become a little more friendly... Suzi is only aggressive in the tank... and she doesn't eat in there... I take her out to eat without the scent of food anywhere on me lol... she still pretty much has that "I'm sleepin don't bother me" attitude 24/7 until she is out of her tank and realizes it me lol then she calms down after a short jog in the hands lol.

[Foxrun402]

Garters aren't territorial that I know of. They as a rule enjoy/put up with other garters.
In all my years of keeping garters I've never seen them refuse company.

Hannibelle ;)

[jwolfe152]

well there's always an exception in his case look at tank :D

[guidofatherof5]

Hannibelle ;)

I don't think that is a territorial issue.

[guidofatherof5]

well there's always an exception in his case look at tank :D

There are always exceptions to the rule but without evidence that it(being territorial) is happening I stand by my original statement.

[jwolfe152]

i think they would be good together, but like you said to be safe take a full day of observing and if there are signs of aggression or being territorial split them up. another idea might be to videotape them while you sleep or if you have to go out for an extended period and watch it when ya can, just to be 100% sure of them.

[Foxrun402]

That's a great idea! I will def keep that in mind! :D

[Foxrun402]

I don't think that is a territorial issue.


Maybe not but still basically what I'm afraid of though... I don't want to put her in there until she is somewhat caught up with Suzi in size, Xena is so friendly its almost mind boggling so maybe she will change Suzi's attitude lol

Edit: Maybe Suzi will teach Xena how to properly dig into and hide in her moss hide like Suzi always does lol!

[Foxrun402]

Well I was home for lunch and was gonna clean a spot in Suzi's tank.... BLAM! she strikes my thumb and I feel little teeth drag across my finger....

First time I've felt her teeth while she was telling me "No! Go away!". buuuut I also woke her up poking her out of the moss hide.... I keep that hide in there all the time she loves it... I only moisten it during shed time... But even completely dry she digs all over in it lol.

They both ate a snack and I went back to work lol

[EasternGirl]

It's an interesting feeling the first time you feel teeth and a real bite. I have tried to explain it to people...best description I can give is it is like walking into a pricker bush and getting stuck really hard. It doesn't feel like a bite so much. I'm so used to it now...I have one small WC eastern that bites me every single time I take him out to move him to his feed tub....and my big girls, Cee Cee and Sadie...they bite the crap out of me every time it is feed time...they decide my hands are the food and they need to start munching on the way to the feed tub...lol. I have gotten to the point where I put medical gloves on because I get tired of my hands looking like I stuck them through glass after I move the girls for feeding...but they bite right through the gloves!!

[Foxrun402]

It was very odd... im used to her "nosing" or "fasle striking" and her nose tapping me and she darts off to hide lol, but this time it was a full on burst of aggression with tiny teeth that didnt puncture just scratched the surface slightly... no damage to me or Suzi lol

But it gave me a look into what I'll be dealing with in the future and I'm certainly not going to let a little biting deter me from handling them so they know I'm friend not foe lol!

Suzi has always done that though, and always sleeps buried in the moss away from plain sight... so maybe waking her up and kicking her out of the moss hide was a little too rude and she took action lol

[EasternGirl]

Yep, probably. Cee Cee always did the same thing for the longest time...just false-striking and banging her nose into my hand. Then she discovered biting...now if she strikes, she goes all out...strikes hard with a bite. She looks like some kind of crazed rattler or cobra when she does it...she's not playing around. She rarely strikes at me like that though...usually when she bites me it's at feeding time because she smells food...no striking, just grabbing at me like I am food and biting at anything that moves...lol. Sadie does the same thing.

[Foxrun402]

She looks like some kind of crazed rattler or cobra when she does it

Its awesome how they think they are so beastly haha! Love that characteristic

[EasternGirl]

Check out this pic:

9469

That is my big girl Cee Cee...doesn't she look absolutely diabolical in that pic? I love it...I'm thinking of getting it made into a tattoo. I fed Sadie and Cee Cee some worms in their tank last night...Cee Cee went nuts...she climbed right out of the front of the tank and stretched out to me and started biting at me...so funny.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks possessed.
If she had arms they would be held out in front of her with the hands pointing down.:D

[Foxrun402]

Suzi and Xena have met... They actually had a visit... and they seem to be fine with being around each other. I was feeding Xena and Suzi... and Suzi decided to ninja her way into Xena's tank.... and scared the crap out of me I was holding feeding tongs and had a worm in them and I thought suzi was gonna jump Xena and BLAH!!!

It was a mess!!!! But the crazy thing was that when I put down the tongs and went to get Xena out for her protection Suzi stuck at me and then checked out Xena and i guess befriended her or something because she continually protect Xena from me... lol thats how it seemed anyways.....

So since this happened on Monday of last week.... Xena's almost been here 4 months... so I decided to let them start having visit's to get used to eachother for the future. Not once yet have I seen any harm or anything bad happen... Hoping for the best... few pics I'll put up later.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad they are working out together.

[Foxrun402]

Xena is still much smaller but at the moment they only visit for about 30-45 minutes at a time, I have caught suzi peering into xenas tank the other morning.... She looked like she missed Xena but xena was buried in her treehouse moss floor hidden away, not sure if they saw each other that morning as I had to work... Made me kinda fee bad for Suzi.... Not long though my girl and you'll have a friend :rolleyes:

[Foxrun402]

Suzi and Xena update....

Suzi's most recent shed is still at 28" in length.

Xena's last shed was found this morning, measuring 21"

She is catching up fast but today, while feeding them. I got down to the last nightcrawler piece and fed it to Xena... Suzi for the first time (I've never seen her do this yet.) flicked her tongue at Xena pulling the scent of worms from her face. Suzi then decided Xena was a worm.... and struck at her right in the face! Food fights are normal for ALL SPECIES OF SNAKE. So this being the first time, scared the **** outta me and I tapped Suzi on her side lightly to "spook" her off and she did.... Thankfully she didnt grab ahold of Xena by the head and try to eat her.... I'll be more careful next time.... FOR SURE!

[guidofatherof5]

Good update. Nice to see you on.

[ConcinusMan]

Looks possessed.
If she had arms they would be held out in front of her with the hands pointing down.:D

http://i41.tinypic.com/2m5gnqe.jpg

[chris-uk]

She is catching up fast but today, while feeding them. I got down to the last nightcrawler piece and fed it to Xena... Suzi for the first time (I've never seen her do this yet.) flicked her tongue at Xena pulling the scent of worms from her face. Suzi then decided Xena was a worm.... and struck at her right in the face! Food fights are normal for ALL SPECIES OF SNAKE. So this being the first time, scared the **** outta me and I tapped Suzi on her side lightly to "spook" her off and she did.... Thankfully she didnt grab ahold of Xena by the head and try to eat her.... I'll be more careful next time.... FOR SURE!

I've had a couple of scares. I don't have more than three in any one viv, so try to keep them in different "zones" when feeding. I've had a scare where one got a good grip on another's head, the infernalis most definitely feed in separate containers now...

[Foxrun402]

Both the girls seem to be doing fine... I haven't had a shed in a while but I have not noticed any signs of retained shed on either of them... I will have to get some new pictures of them up on here It's been a while since I have taken any good ones.... Xena has grown so much!

My friends kid also found a baby radix and is taking care of it.... I'm helping him learn all about them and supplying him with handouts I have left from what my garters have outgrown. Since I get my pinkies from RodentPro I just give him some of mine..... Kid is lucky I like snakes because he doesnt have to buy that snake food lol!

But I just wanted to let you all know Suzi and Xena are doing great in their bigger home.... Xena, Hoewever, Has claimed the big Bonzai tree as her own and WILL NOT come out unless she hear's me calling for her, or I wave food infront of her door LOL!

Hope you all are doing great. Pictures to come soon!

Edit: Took a few quick shots
Xena went all "come at me bro" when I put my phone in the tank, I was laughing so hard when this happened just now haha!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps3d4b106e.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps3d4b106e.jpg.html)

Xena
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsa3627482.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zpsa3627482.jpg.html)

My big girl Suzi
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps9b739760.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps9b739760.jpg.html)

Had Suzi for over a year now and she still looks healthy as ever and still eats anything that moves lol!

Glad I have all of you in my life to help along the way! major thanks to all of you in this community!

-Jonathan

[guidofatherof5]

They look great but that radix face is awesome.

[kueluck]

They look great Jon, and happy to hear all is well in your world of Thamnophis.

[Foxrun402]

Suzi was sleeping and wouldn't come out..... but Xena Says Merry Christmas!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20131222_150019_zpsx0np7zrp.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20131222_150019_zpsx0np7zrp.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to see you Zena, Merry Christmas.
About time you checked into the forum.

[kueluck]

You should of woken her up........she is my fav with her beautiful colors. And Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[Foxrun402]

Got home from work... Found a freshly shed Xena

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20131230_163901411_zpsddusdu6w.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20131230_163901411_zpsddusdu6w.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful

[Foxrun402]

Thanks Steve! I was getting worried.... Now I just need one from Suzi.... lol

Xena got it all off except she tore near the tail tip.... I took her out and with a little water it came right off like magic! =D

They have both calmed down A LOT! I think now that Suzi has a companion she is much more docile and explores a lot more too.... Xena usually hides all the time and I rarely see her but just the other day I took out all the aspen and replaced it all fresh.... and today when I came home ther where both snuggled ontop of the big bonsai tree under the light! That's when I noticed Xena's color appeared way more vivid!

[ConcinusMan]

Wow that "coming at you" photo... too bad it wasn't in focus. The perspective makes it look like a floating snake face. What a trip.

[Foxrun402]

yeah that would have been cool but my phone doesn't always focus up close unfortunately

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20140114_121724384_zpsaiuhrnse.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20140114_121724384_zpsaiuhrnse.jpg.html)

Still waiting for Suzi to give me another good shed... It's been a while since her last one but she hasn't changed a bit.... always hungry and never rejected food until jsut the other day I think there was too much going on around her she just didn't want to eat. But she is doing good.... This is how I found her today when I went on lunch.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good and growing like a weed.

[Foxrun402]

Well....
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20140114_213213504_zps1zfshbxa.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20140114_213213504_zps1zfshbxa.jpg.html)
That big shed nearest the edge of the tank.... Yup That's Suzi's! :D

I am so happy right now haha!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20140114_215305867_zps4zeomizd.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20140114_215305867_zps4zeomizd.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20140114_215227074_zps0sry0ppx.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20140114_215227074_zps0sry0ppx.jpg.html)
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/IMG_20140115_063637797_zpso0pjh38u.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/IMG_20140115_063637797_zpso0pjh38u.jpg.html)

[guidofatherof5]

Good update.

[Foxrun402]

Aha you can kinda see it in the picture with Suzi and Xena.... how she looks somewhat dull upfront, and greener as you go back.... She has this weird pearlescent green thing going on.... She looks way brighter green at certain angles... It's kinda cool!