Mouth infection not improving...

[d_virginiana]

This isn't really urgent so I figured I'd post it in the general talk section...

I think it was a little over a week ago that I posted about my 4-5 month old baby Sithis having a mouth infection. It seemed to be causing him respiratory distress at first, but that stopped abruptly after he shed. I've been treating with betadine until about three days ago when our CVS finally got a new shipment of hibiclens in; now I'm using that. Been treating once or twice a day since I noticed the swelling.
I can get new pics up by tomorrow, but it looks pretty much like it did in the first thread except the swelling on the affected side of the mouth is pronounced enough that you can see it bulging the labial scales out.
No discharge, and he's as active and tongue-flicking like normal. Still eating like crazy as well. Should I feed less often until this clears up? Also, how often should I treat with the hibiclens?

Basically just wondering if there's anything else I can do... Harley had a similar infection last year (luckily over my Christmas break when I could treat her) and it took over a month for her to get back to normal.

[Stefan-A]

I'm moving this to Urgent Care, anyway. The section should really be named "Health Issues" or something along those lines.

To answer the question: Sounds like a job for antibiotics. Skin cleansers are probably a waste of time, unless we are talking about minor wounds that haven't yet been infected.

[d_virginiana]

Darn... I was hoping it would still be in the realm of something hibiclens or betadine could get rid of, since there is no tissue discoloration or discharge, just swelling.

I can get him to a vet if absolutely necessary, since I'm now in an area with exotics vets, but the bills are insane just for the vet to take a look, not even including medication. Money is already pretty tight right now, and a vet bill is something I'd really rather not have to figure out how to pay for. Is there a general go-to antibiotic that I could order online and apply myself?

[Stefan-A]

That, I do not know.

[thamneil]

Nothing that you could get without the help of a vet. There is a herbal product called Reptaid that a few of my friends have used as a general cure all. I doubt it would help your situation much.

[guidofatherof5]

I make this suggestion because this is the procedure my Vet. uses with these lip infections.
He takes a sterile needle and pokes the infected area a number of times causing it to bleed.
I've used the same procedure now for years with great success. Treating with diluted hibiclens after that for a week or so. I use diabetic syringes for my source of sterile needles. Cheap to buy and I simple fill a sharps container with the used ones.

This procedure does cause some bleeding and I'm sure the snake feels some discomfort/pain but left unattended this can become a life threatening infection.

[d_virginiana]

Yikes... I may just call an exotics vet then. I would feel comfortable doing this on one of my older snakes, but Sithis is so tiny and not very calm when being handled to begin with, I'm afraid I would slip up and make things worse. Going to check around online for a good one and call tomorrow.

Something I just thought of last night that I thought might have something to do with this... The other night he somehow managed to bite onto the glue (silicon?) in the corner of the tank during feeding. He was stuck on it for almost two minutes, since I couldn't really do anything to get him off without hurting him.
I thought his mouth was looking a little better until this happened, then it started looking worse again. Do you think part of this could be an injury from that?

Here's a picture so you can see how it's looking now. He's not acting sick at all, so I'm hoping this is something he can beat if I get him checked out by a vet.
7431

[guidofatherof5]

They do look on the minor side. No idea where the infection came from.
I hope it works out well. Keep us posted please.

[d_virginiana]

That's good at least... I'd rather over-react to something in the early stages than wait too late.
On the bright side, I found an exotics vet that looks very trustworthy. They cater solely to exotics, and even offer services for fish, amphibians, and inverts. It's good to know there's somewhere I could take any of my animals.

[paulh]

A number of years ago, Dr. Richard Reed recommended at a symposium to try daily treatment with Polysporin as a shotgun treatment for mouth infections. It doesn't work with some pathogens, but it did clear up a mouth infection in one of my ball pythons. Polysporin is an over the counter first aid cream available in many drug stores.

Slightly elevated temperatures may help. And many cases of mouth infection have flagellate protozoan infections, too. A vet should treat that with the proper antibiotics. Good luck.

[ConcinusMan]

They do look on the minor side.

I agree. Doesn't look too bad. Probably not life threatening at this point. If the snake isn't feeling enough discomfort to go off food, that's good too. The gum tissue showing is a pinkish color, not red. Also good.

When I've dealt with this situation, it's not uncommon for it to appear to be healing, then swell up again. This injury might be caused by broken/loose teeth. I use the hibiclens after meals and /or twice a day. But you gotta use a q-tip or folded piece of tissue (forming a corner or edge) completely saturated and sort of roll it upward so it gets under the "lip". It's a long process, and an uphill battle, and isn't always successful.

I really don't think any vet can administer antibiotics due to his size. (a 3.5+ foot, 200 gram snake only takes 0.4ml when it's baytril suspension and all dosages are administered in ml per kilogram of body weight) It would take such a minute amount to overdose a snake that small. It's very difficult to get the correct dosage. He's just so tiny.

[d_virginiana]

If it didn't begin as a tooth injury I believe it was certainly made worse by him biting onto the silicon then panicking.

Last year I used betadine to medicate a similar infection in Harley (she was about the same age too). It took over a month and she still has some residual scarring. I think I'm going to try the technique Steve suggested with the needle, continue with the hibiclens, and see if I can speed up the healing process.

Not only has he not gone off food, he's still coming out to beg. I take that as a good sign.

[ConcinusMan]

Just for future reference, if your snake bites you or an object and gets stuck, keep in mind that the teeth curve backwards like fish hooks. Don't pull the snake back as this could break teeth. Pushing the object toward the snakes throat can release the teeth. If the snake has got a hold of your hand, you need to move the snakes head forward (nose direction) to release the teeth.

If you're going to try the needle thing, be careful that you don't go too deep, and use an extremely sharp, fine needle. The finest gage insulin syringe you can get should work well.

[d_virginiana]

Normally I can get him to release pretty quick when he's bitten my finger, but with the silicone I couldn't really reach him well. I just put my hand behind him to keep him from jerking backwards...

I picked up some 33 gauge insulin lancets today. They're the smallest needles I could find. Going to give it a try later. I've been working on keeping him completely still while I put the hibiclens on his lips. I do worry about him hurting his neck when he tries to pull his head out of my grip though.

[guidofatherof5]

Normally I can get him to release pretty quick when he's bitten my finger, but with the silicone I couldn't really reach him well. I just put my hand behind him to keep him from jerking backwards...

I picked up some 33 gauge insulin lancets today. They're the smallest needles I could find. Going to give it a try later. I've been working on keeping him completely still while I put the hibiclens on his lips. I do worry about him hurting his neck when he tries to pull his head out of my grip though.

Shouldn't worry too much about that. They are pretty tough.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, their spines are designed to take a lot of abuse.

[d_virginiana]

Okay, so I tried the needle treatment.

I barely touched his mouth with it a couple times, and nothing was happening. Then between one second and the next, I noticed a piece of tissue hanging out of his mouth. VERY small, like what happens when you cut the gum right above your teeth on a sharp potato chip or something.
I'd put up a picture, but there's no way it would show up.
Anyway, there was never any blood at any point, which kind of surprised me. It definitely stung because he started trying to jerk away when it happened. Anyway, after seeing that, I was afraid to do anything else. I treated both sides of his mouth in hibiclens and gently squeezed the more swollen side of his lip a little. The fact that a whole piece of tissue came loose like that, makes me wonder if that had something to do with the infection? Like maybe the tissue was weakened a little?
Before I started, I did notice that the edge of the mouth was starting to look red more than pink.


Even after I let him go, he was content to crawl around on my hand and still tongue flicking. He just opened his mouth up a little to readjust and that was it. If anything changes, I'll put up more pictures. Otherwise, unless someone has another suggestion, I'm going to continue treating with Hibiclens twice daily (maybe three times until I'm sure that piece of skin isn't loose anymore).

What is a good temp to keep him at? I can rearrange my tanks a little to bump it if that would help. Right now, his probably stays about 75.

[d_virginiana]

I just went up and checked on him again. There doesn't look to be any excess swelling caused by the needle, and it's been about two hours. I feel better now since it doesn't seem like I've done any more damage by trying this at least.

[d_virginiana]

As of tonight, I can see a definite improvement in Sithis' mouth. There is still some swelling, but I can tell it has gone down. It really looks like the needle treatment helped.
Not going to dance for joy just yet, but it's looking good.