Dont listen to what anybody says on this forum

[snakeman]

Do all of yourselves a favor and dont listen to what anybody says on this forum.the only two people I will vouch for is Jeffy and Scott.

[guidofatherof5]

Both Jeff and Scott are good people and very knowledgeable but this forum has many members that are more then capable of caring for garters and giving advice on the subject.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I feel like not one person could ever know it all so we need to lay our personal experiences out so maybe someone can learn from them. I have learned things from lots of people on this forum as far as garters go. I have kept snakes for years and they have ranged from boas and pythons to lots of different colubrids and even venomous. If people don't share their experiences we wouldn't know what to expect in certain cases. I agree that all advice on here isn't sound advice, but at the end of the day all we can do is try and that's why they call it a forum people post their opinions and if you agree with them fine if you don't that's fine too that's a free choice we all have.

[ConcinusMan]

Do all of yourselves a favor and dont listen to what anybody says on this forum.the only two people I will vouch for is Jeffy and Scott.

I find that insulting.

[RedSidedSPR]

That was indeed uncalled for.

[snakeman]

I find that insulting. I really don't care.it's the truth.

[Steveo]

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Kantar]

that's fine, but I'm sure Jeff and Scott has learned something from this forum as well, thus debunking your opinion of only listening to them. But that means this is just less sources for information for you. I'll listen to everyone as we all have valuable input from our own experiences

[snake man]

What provoked this?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

As a relatively new member to this forum I can honestly say the advice and information I have been given is spot on.I went from not knowing anything about Thamnophis to an enthusiast with a contented snake,as a direct result of this forum.

IMO If advice is given with logic and reason to back it up it doesn't matter who says it.

[snakeman]

I got my own thread.cool.what provoked this was people constantly complaining about snakes having siezures.stop feeding your snakes fish from the supermarket!every week somebodys snake is dying.and no it isn't a brain eating amoeba.ridiculous.I don't care anybody buys my snakes.better off just putting them in the freezer if you're going to feed them talapia.I don't even eat that crap!farm raised fish is garbage.listen or don't listen.eventually it will bite you in the ***.

[guidofatherof5]

How did that become a whole forum loses except Jeffy and Scott issue?

[snakeman]

Actually it's a moderator issue.anybody can,post anything on these forums and all of the sudden it's factbad advise should be deleted.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

If some one says something that isn't correct they get corrected.For example,there isn't a problem with the moderators the problem is yours.

[ConcinusMan]

I really don't care.it's the truth.

Truth is in the mind of the observer. What is truth, is a perception. The Bible is truth for many. I think you mean "it's true"


Actually it's a moderator issue.anybody can,post anything on these forums and all of the sudden it's factbad advise should be deleted.

Perhaps. I do see it a lot too, but who's to decide what is bad and what is good? To sit there and say there's only two people that give good advice is just ludacris.

[thamneil]

The husbandry of garter snakes is not a science, it is an art. We will never know everything about how to keep these wonderful snakes. When I am giving advice, it is merely my own experience. That is also how I view the advice given to me.

[ConcinusMan]

As it should be. There is no single right way or wrong way. There is still much to learn and the learning doesn't stop with Jeff and Scott. Doesn't stop in our lifetimes in fact. Even Doctors and zoologists continue their education throughout their lives. Even they don't "know it all"

[thamneil]

Even they don't "know it all"

And they never will.

[guidofatherof5]

I think this forum handles bad advice well. Calling people out on questionable things is done all the time on this forum.
It sounds to me like there are some specific issues you are talking about.

[infernalis]

I got my own thread.cool.what provoked this was people constantly complaining about snakes having siezures.stop feeding your snakes fish from the supermarket!every week somebodys snake is dying.and no it isn't a brain eating amoeba.ridiculous.I don't care anybody buys my snakes.better off just putting them in the freezer if you're going to feed them talapia.I don't even eat that crap!farm raised fish is garbage.listen or don't listen.eventually it will bite you in the ***.

I have been preaching that for some time now, but I don't condemn the whole forum for those who don't follow the advice.

[Selkielass]

That's a a helluva burden you're placing on Jeff and Scott.
Just sayin'...

[ConcinusMan]

And just how often are they here to give advice anyway?:cool: Seems the only times they show up is when they want to sell something. Well, not always, but often that's the case, and that's understandable.

[chris-uk]

Do all of yourselves a favor and dont listen to what anybody says on this forum.the only two people I will vouch for is Jeffy and Scott.

So you pick out two people who, whilst no doubt knowledgeable, rarely share anything on this forum? I find your post rather odd.

[chris-uk]

Should have read to the end of the thread instead of just the first couple of pages, Richard already voiced my thoughts.

[twgrosmick]

While both of them are very knowledgeable no one is perfect. I know that neither one of them fully understands genetics, though no one does. If you want to take what they say as the only truth go for it but the ignorance in your original post is ridiculous. I really hope that you are a child otherwise you need to go back to school and learn how to act in a public setting...

[ConcinusMan]

No need to be so harsh. Snakeman has been around a while. He's a respectable member. I just thought his post a bit insulting is all. Took me a bit by surprise too.

[Invisible Snake]

I read all posts and extrapolate what I need, but I certainly don't take it as the gospel. I compare it to other posts where members give accounts from their experiences and go from there.

[twgrosmick]

No need to be so harsh. Snakeman has been around a while. He's a respectable member. I just thought his post a bit insulting is all. Took me a bit by surprise too.

Doesn't matter... Until he posts up what everyone else on this forum has said/done to deserve being grouped together then I have no respect for him or anything else he has to say

[Steveo]

So you pick out two people who, whilst no doubt knowledgeable, rarely share anything on this forum? I find your post rather odd.

I greatly respect both Jeff and Scott, but as the saying goes, "asking a breeder for veterinary advice is like asking a pimp about gynecology." The whole point of a forum is to pool ideas and experiences. Together we have more experience than any individual. Yes, some of the advice doled out can be questionable, and some of the questions can be inane, but a forum is not a handbook - it's not automatically canon. ANY forum post from ANYONE should be taken with a grain of salt, at least until you figure out who knows their stuff and who doesn't.

[gregmonsta]

Quite a sweeping opinionated statement to kick this off ... Guess I'll stop giving advice, trying to educate shops and sell my non-tilapia eating snakes ... Sorry, but a thinking active group is more likely to generate better/more current advice and husbandry trends than people who are not party to giving advice in the first place. If I was to follow this train of thought I'd be hanging on the gospel of the most well known garter breeder in my country and would be feeding cat food and crossing infernalis with tetrataenia ... :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

There is no need to be harsh at all. This got its own thread because I wanted to give him a chance to explain what he meant. I do not want it to be a witch hunt and I don't want to see any "love it or leave it" type comments or insults. He's got grievances and I want to know what they are and where they stem from. He didn't start this thread, I did.

Everybody, chill.

[EasternGirl]

Whatever. I have to say that what provoked this...whether or not Stefan started this thread...is that Snakeman always comes on this forum spouting nonsense and calling it fact and then he turns around and says that we don't know what we are talking about. "Ummm...hello? Pot? This is kettle...you're black". That's all I'm saying. Stefan, I appreciate you giving a person a chance to discuss their grievances...but he is just insulting us and this forum. There is a difference between getting grievances off your chest and outright insulting people.

[RedSidedSPR]

I got no beef with snakeman and respect any advice he gives, and I'm not defending me and my advice which may or may not be sound. If i'm defending anyone, it's the forum and it's respected members

I have never heard any advice against Tilpia. I was under the impression, whether I still am or not, that it was/is a safe food to feed. If someone I respect gave me reason to believe it was unsafe, I would likely stop feeding it. I care very much about the well being of my snakes, and everyone else's for that matter.

I have heated posisitive things said for it however, but some of the obviously most knowledged people in the hobby.

This is the first I've heard of it, and with no reason not to feed it, I shall continue, until I have reason to.

It'd be like me saying "Don't listen to anything (deleted name, don't wanna call anyone out, like I just said..) says, because he doesn't feed worms!" But I'm not going to.

I'd like to hear any other reasons you have to diss the entire forum.

Everything I've learned about keeping my snakes is from this forum. Everything wrong I've read about keeping my snakes has been from everywhere else.

[ConcinusMan]

There is a difference between getting grievances off your chest and outright insulting people.

Sometimes you can't have one without the other. (and believe me, I know. Used to have the whole dang forum biting my head off) Doesn't mean we have to be insulting too.

[d_virginiana]

It's good everyone has a chance to air whatever grievances they may have, but I don't see how that comment was meant to be anything but offensive. If someone really thinks that everyone is murdering their pets by feeding them a widely accepted food source, I'd like to see actual information on it rather than just a statement that no one on the forum knows what they're doing. That's a personal attack (on a lot of people) without anything useful to attach to it.
I can deal with harsh words if they are also helpful.

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't even know this was about tilapia. It's supposed to be bad now? I missed something.

[ConcinusMan]

I got my own thread.cool.what provoked this was people constantly complaining about snakes having siezures.stop feeding your snakes fish from the supermarket!every week somebodys snake is dying.and no it isn't a brain eating amoeba.ridiculous.I don't care anybody buys my snakes.better off just putting them in the freezer if you're going to feed them talapia.I don't even eat that crap!farm raised fish is garbage.listen or don't listen.eventually it will bite you in the ***.

Oh, I see now. Well, the only time I ever had snakes develop seizures was when I fed them wild coho for a period of time and it wasn't from the store. It was caught in the Lewis river. Never had a problem with tilapia or farmed salmon. Maybe we should just stop feeding them fish altogether huh?

I can't help thinking that was directed at me since I just recommended tilapia in a seizure thread. The fact is, you don't know what caused the seizure. The possibilities are endless. There's nothing in tilapia fillet, farmed or not, that could account for seizures. Wild fish, however have plenty of things in it that can cause it.

I find it quite disturbing that fish from the grocery store can cause problems for the snakes, but we're supposed to eat it? And I'm telling you that fish NOT from the grocery store isn't any better. Most of the time, it's worse than farmed.

[jaleely]

I'm sorry, who are you, and why should anyone listen to *you* exactly?

I kind of think you have no idea how i keep my snakes.

Maybe instead of being obtuse, you should go around being useful like posting how feeding store bought fish is bad.

And you have the nerve to complain about bad info on the internet (which is basically what you're doing). You're just attention seeking. If you really wanted to help you'd be promoting the good information *shrug*

You probably have a lot of advice that's good, but see, now you've put off a lot of people from even reading your further posts. I really doubt if you care about that though. This was just for your own attention needs.

[ConcinusMan]

Look, I think I understand what's going on here. I too see a lot of bad advice here and I also see a lot of husbandry mistakes going on and a lot of problems happening because of it. I usually just state my opinion if I disagree with something someone has advised, and try to state why I disagree. I'm sure he's just sick of seeing all the bad advice and snakes dying and just wanted to get it off his chest. But the way I see it, I started keeping snakes long before there was any internet or forum for people to share information. I made a lot of mistakes. I think people need to make their own mistakes and learn from it. Luckily, at least you "newbies" have our experience to draw on. I didn't have that luxury when I was starting out. The way I see it, there's going to be bad advice, mistakes, and dead snakes. It just goes with the territory so I try to not let it bother me.

"Who he is" doesn't really matter. The members that have been here a while, including myself, know who he is. He's good people near as I can tell. I think he just needed to say something. Let's not drive away people who have valuable experience and knowledge. We need people like that.

[chris-uk]

Richard - the forum needs good people who give good advice. The second part of that is the key.
The only two people who we're supposed to trust... Well, I challenge anyone to look back through Scott's and Jeff's posts and find their last post which constitutes good advice that wasn't the same advice as many others had already given. It's easy to see their most recent posts, visit their profile pages and click the link to view their most recent posts. A more specific challenge would be to find the last post by either of them about feeding.

The point I'm making is, yes not all advice on here is good, but the people that Snakeman thinks we should trust do nothing to counter the bad advice. If I'm only supposed to trust Jeff and Scott I'd be learning about garters in a vacuum of information, so with respect to both those members - sorry, I know who you are, but there are many more helpful people who do offer advice.

[Selkielass]

The only warning I have seen against tilapia was about an additive sometimes added to packaged fish ad a preservative. This additive *might* have negative impact on garters. (If educated guess, not proven by testing.)

Some people don't have trust farm raised fish. They argue the diet fed is poor/ unhealthy and may conntain antibiotics and other substances absorbed from a crowded, unhealthy 'feedand lot' style life.
Others wont eat wild caught due to possible parasites and pollution contamination.
In *my* opinion, every food has its risks and benefits- you have to look at what is available in your region, at what cost, and find the best balance for yourself.

[reptileparadise]

I don't listen to what anyone says, except for our own 15+ years of experience.... WITHOUT seizures, on store bought fish, with max 5% rodents in the diet.

There... I said it, we trust nobody... That said, we trust everyone, we just THINK on what people are saying and judge from there on. Quite often, people make sence and we learn... Sometimes people talk rubbish and we try to learn them something.

A part of life with a living hobby. Nobody is correct as every snake is different....

[CrazyHedgehog]

Can we all meet at the hill before sunrise!
Handbags at Dawn!
:D
(.............runs and hides..)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I used to use tilapia a lot with my baby garters until they were big enough to take pinkies. I stopped using tilapia as of last year and had way better results this year.
In general tilapia is a safe fish to use, but like others already stated it's how it's processed. Most of the supermarket storebought fish has added chemicals that can in high doses harm snakes. When used as a treat or to vary a diet people have few problems with it, but if used as a staple diet you will have some effects longterm.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Can I just say that I agree with Tom's point. And i know tom personally.... hes a good guy! he just isnt an internet junkie and so he doesnt have those "people skills". But neither does Stefan sometimes and heck.... he doesnt need them. I DO NOT agree that there are only two people That give good advice but i do agree that i have read a lot of rubbish in here that diasappoints me... but i just keep my mouth shut as with a teething 10 month old i am lucky i have time to read anything. I stopped using and will no longer advocate raw fish filet and have been that way for a whole now. I'm a firm believer in the whole prey diet only, and a varied diet at that. I have seen MANY terrible suggestions and things that I find to be off on this forum but good advice also. But yes the rate of snake deaths is rather alarming. I just got power back yesterday but even during the outage I lurked from my phone. I need to stop lurking and find time to post more again... My viewpoints have changed a considerable degree since I first started keeping garter snakes.

[infernalis]

Can I just say that I agree with Tom's point. And i know tom personally.... hes a good guy! he just isnt an internet junkie and so he doesnt have those "people skills". But neither does Stefan sometimes and heck.... he doesnt need them. I DO NOT agree that there are only two people That give good advice but i do agree that i have read a lot of rubbish in here that diasappoints me... but i just keep my mouth shut as with a teething 10 month old i am lucky i have time to read anything. I stopped using and will no longer advocate raw fish filet and have been that way for a whole now. I'm a firm believer in the whole prey diet only, and a varied diet at that. I have seen MANY terrible suggestions and things that I find to be off on this forum but good advice also. But yes the rate of snake deaths is rather alarming. I just got power back yesterday but even during the outage I lurked from my phone. I need to stop lurking and find time to post more again... My viewpoints have changed a considerable degree since I first started keeping garter snakes.

I have to agree with you Shannon... I have been keeping quiet too much, and sugar coating replies.

Maybe that needs to change.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I see some bad advice from time to time on this/any forum, but i also see some good advice being said. Anytime a person chooses to trust someone else's advice that it is up to them. That is the pros and cons of an open public forum. I too have done business with tom and he seemed to be a stand up guy. Maybe it's like shannon said he don't have very good people skills or maybe he was having a bad day. I don't have any problems with any of you guy's on the forum as i feel like this is one big forum family.

[infernalis]

this is one big forum family.

Maybe we should start caring about the animals a little more, and peoples feelings a little less.

Sitting around holding hands and coddling while animals die is not what we are supposed to be about.

[EasternGirl]

I just want to say that what Jesse said was very well put and pretty much sums up what I am thinking about all of this. But I do think you can discuss grievances without outright insulting people. I also think that if we have a particular problem with someone or the forum in general...we should send a message to that person and discuss it with them in private or send a message to a moderator instead of posting those grievances on a thread that starts a bunch of drama. If we want to discuss problems with feeding fish without getting nasty concerning the forum and it's members, that is completely different. Like Jesse said, everything I learned about caring for garters I learned from the members of this forum. My first garter is alive and healthy to this day because of this forum. I am grateful for this forum and all of it's members. This forum has become my family and I am proud to have all of you in my life.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I agree 100 percent! I love and care about the well being of all animals and i spend hours a day taking care of my snakes and trying to help others. I was just stating that i don't hold a grudge against anyone for their comments including tom. If i don't agree with their husbandry needs i will simply try to help them just ask anyone who knows me. I don't think anyone here buys or invest time in these animals that don't care about them. They just might not have the best info on how to care for them so that's where we come in. We share our experiences and hope that it will help. In the end we can't make each person choose the way they care for their animal, but try to encourage them and give them the best advice we know.

maybe we should start caring about the animals a little more, and peoples feelings a little less.

Sitting around holding hands and coddling while animals die is not what we are supposed to be about.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Once you have accumulated so much knowledge and experience, and you'be been on a forum for so long, you tend to stop sugar coating and just tell it like it is. There really isn't anything wrong with that. Yes it's good to treat all of us as a big family but that should never stand in the way of husbandry or our animals. I have said this to many, many people: I'm not here to insult, I am not here because of your feelings. I am here for your Animals and I will always put them first even if it means people will not agree with me or take offense to what I have said. I get this crap all the time on Facebook. Not too long ago I saw someone in one of my groups post a pic bragging about how they collected that garter snake as a "treat" to feed to their milksnake. Out of the 70 something people that saw the post not one came forward and said a thing until I stepped in. I asked everyone.... Why has no one said anything? Not only is this illegal in his state, the snake is already a good feeder on mice. The risk to his pet snake alone isn't worth it, let alone collecting an adult female of protected species in your state and treating it like a piece of chocolate. I took a lot of heat from this idiot's supporters, but you wouldn't believe how many people also started to say "you know what, she's right, that isn't okay!" Sometimes you have to be the jerk. I have been that jerk many times. And frankly I just don't give a damn anymore if people can't handle that. On this forum, I tend to be a lot more mellow than on some others. But now that I've got some thamnophis here again after the accident, I'm here more. I usuAlly come through my phone which is why new threads havent happened, And If I can ever sneak onto my laptop for something other than running cold-blooded creation, ( this takes up pretty much all of my computer time but my customers are important and it's my full time job now) I can't wait to update everyone and post photos of my occellatus, obscurus, scotti, and melanistic sirtalis! And of course Banana, my big fat amel radix. I'm not a fan of amels Anymore but she's a darling.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I cant believe how fake people can be....its sick....it is a moderator issue like tom said

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I cant believe how fake people can be....its sick....it is a moderator issue like tom said

Look here sugarplum, Censorship = no good. Moderators shouldn't delete posts just because they don't agree with what's being said or because someone is posting nonsense. That's abuse of moderation and nobody wants to use a forum where posts randomly disappear! But I don't gotta tell you that, you hate the computer aspect of our hobby already! I absolutely hate sites with trigger happy moderators that delete posts, especially if members are debating. Forums are for people to discuss things, not for moderators to feel important and feed their ego. Call me tonight!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Look here sugarplum, Censorship = no good. Moderators shouldn't delete posts just because they don't agree with what's being said or because someone is posting nonsense. That's abuse of moderation and nobody wants to use a forum where posts randomly disappear! But I don't gotta tell you that, you hate the computer aspect of our hobby already! I absolutely hate sites with trigger happy moderators that delete posts, especially if members are debating. Forums are for people to discuss things, not for moderators to feel important and feed their ego. Call me tonight!
Oh i wasnt talking about deleting posts...but i hear a parrot...its annoying

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm on a forum that deletes posts all day, has banned me 5 times for "offensive posts", any time I'm blunt in my opinion, and another that's banned me repeatedly for "off topic posts" . The moderators here are excellent and handle the stuff they should as a moderator, rather than deleting the person they're arguing with's posts, or in this case delelting every little piece of information he doesn't agree with.

It's not a moderator problem.

Like y'all say, there's some bad info here, but most of the time it's pretty solid and there's sure as hell a lot more than two people I'd "vouch for".

This is by far the best source for garter snake care, and the only site I ever recommend to anyone who has a garter, save the multiple care sheets. But them again, the only care sheets I link are written by people on this forum.

Sure there's a lot of snake deaths here, but I don't think any have happened because of info given here.

To Wayne's point -- I DO care about every snakes well being here, more than the people's feelings, frankly. which is probably why I avoid posting in or even reading the "my snake died" thread.

That doesn't mean I don't care about the people's feelings either, just it's not my biggest concern.

Nobody here could make a valid point to why you shouldn't listen to "anyone on this forum". There is none. It's a forum with a bunch of people. Most of them knowledgable, some of them not so much. You're gonna get mixed opinions, and with that, bad ones. But while some people have some damn good opinions, no one will ever be entirely "right" about anything. There is a wrong way, however, and that will be, and is, known. But I don't think anything straight up wrong or bad is encouraged here.

[guidofatherof5]

Am I missing something in this thread. How is this the mods. fault? This an open forum and to ask mods. to gleam the good from the bad seem to go against the idea of an open forum. I understand if someones a complete nut/*** but I don't feel it's the mods. job to give each post a thumbs up or down. Some, if not most of that responsibility has to fall on the members.
This is our forum and confronting practices that seem wrong or dangerous is the responsibility of the members. To which I feel has been done well.
If something seem wrong speak out against it in the same way you would speak up for good practices. Most post are professional and not demeaning.

I for one came to this forum with a lack of knowledge for garters even though I've kept them for most of my life. It was the forum members that helped me to understand my mistakes and gave me the knowledge to do better. That education continues today and will continue for the rest of my life. This forum has a wealth of experience and knowledge which we all use.
There are times I shake my head at some of the things I read but I'm sure people shook their head at me when I first joined and may still.
"If something seem wrong speak out against it in the same way you would speak up for good practices" I think the mods. do a good job. Remember, this is an unpaid and sometimes unappreciated position.
If you have a problem with a post and you don't want to reply to it. You can always contact a mod. and express your concerns to them.
There have been times I've contacted a mod. for advice on a post I have read. Their advice has always been sound. Sometimes I contact them thinking it's their problem to deal with only to learn it was an issue for me to address.
I hope this forum never gets to a point where mods. pick and choose what will be posted and what won't. Yes, they do have to take care of some issues but the members need to take care of the rest.
Just my opinion.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Lol Steve you outta know me by now...i think Shannon understood my point..i think you should be moderator steve

[Invisible Snake]

Was anyone under the impression that everyone on the forum is an expert and you should follow their advice blindly?

Smh sheeps.

[ConcinusMan]

Certainly not. I still have more respect for certain people's opinions than others but it's not the moderators job to dictate who's knowlegeable and who isn't. It's not Tom's job either.


The only warning I have seen against tilapia was about an additive sometimes added to packaged fish ad a preservative. This additive *might* have negative impact on garters. (If educated guess, not proven by testing.)

I say there is no "might". Trisodium phosphate, (and other sodium, even table salt is harmful too) added to keep fish from drying out when frozen, kills reptiles and possibly birds too. The effect is almost immediate. It causes renal failure. It results in seizure like symptoms followed by rapid renal failure and death. This is because of the way their kidneys work. It is considered harmless to animals that produce liquid urine. As far as farmed or wild goes, wild fish almost always much higher in heavy metals and sometimes PCB's due to their diet. Carnivorous fish are more likely to be contaminated with heavy metals than plant eating fish (tilapia are vegetarians) and it's a fact that wild salmon has more contaminants than farmed. The only exception might be with wild Alaskan salmon. Level of metals and PCB's in fish can be researched online. They are tested regularly.

If anyone doubts what I have said, they can always do the research themselves to verify.

Nice to see you here Shannon.:)

[guidofatherof5]

Expert:

An x is a has-been and a spurt is what comes out of the end of a hose.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Oh, I see now. Well, the only time I ever had snakes develop seizures was when I fed them wild coho for a period of time and it wasn't from the store. It was caught in the Lewis river.

And the Lewis river is in SW WA State. And look at this chart. Note the levels in WA Salmon compared to farmed. I won't be feeding any wild salmon to my snakes unless it comes from Alaska. Preferably, Copper River salmon.

List of Seafood Health Alerts - Seafood Selector - Environmental Defense Fund (http://apps.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=17694)

[Rober10169]

Hello, I am pretty new to garter snakes. I have found lots of useful information on this forum as well as information that would probably not work well in my demographics. People need to take their unique situations/demographics/needs in consideration when they decide what information might help them and which might not help them. example of this: I do not live near any large body of water or ocean so any fish would more likely have more preservatives so I CHOSE not to use any fish for food except feeder fish from the pet store or might be getting into raising guppies ourselves for a food supply. Another point people need to understand is the imperfections of nature. Not every offspring will thrive. This is called survival of the fittest. People are trying too hard to keep weak specimens alive. This is not doing anyone any favors. Sometimes it is nothing that we have done and the individual passes on. Although sad, it is a reality. Humans are the only living creature that, in my opinion, the genes/genetics are getting weaker because we don't live by the rules of nature. Anyways enough said. This is a good site for information and it is always my choice of who and what information I take to use with my own animals.

[d_virginiana]

I quite like the way the mods work on this forum. Primarily because I hate reading posts that make no sense because they are replying to something that has been deleted :rolleyes:
Even when people on this forum are 'harsh' it's nothing compared to the drama I've seen on other reptile forums. I've been on forums where people are downright rude (maybe with reason, considering the level of neglect and misinformation that is common with the species it is dedicated to...); but their advice has saved my pets before, and that's what matters. That being said, I've kept reptiles for a while, and someone being nasty on a forum isn't enough to discourage or confuse me. I've seen a lot of first time keepers (probably kids with their first ectothermic friends) scared away from forums that could have helped them and their pets because of unnecessarily harsh criticism when simple advice would do.
idk, I guess I'm saying that there's a line between backing down and scaring people off. I've never seen that level of criticism on this forum; it's just something that I hope I never do see here :)


I try to stay away from the 'safe fish' debate. I had to feed minnows of an unknown species for years because my parents refused to let me order silversides when the bait store sold minnows for a dollar a dozen. Now that I can choose, the only fish they get are f/t silversides.

[ConcinusMan]

I CHOSE not to use any fish for food except feeder fish from the pet store

*cringe*


in my opinion, the genes/genetics are getting weaker because we don't live by the rules of nature.

That, my friend, doesn't matter. We are still subject to those rules, as is every creature on earth. Also, the genes aren't getting weaker. We all have the same genes that come from just a few thousand individuals, which by the way, were the survivors at a time when mankind nearly got wiped out. The "weak" genes have already been eliminated. But that's a discussion for another thread.

[Invisible Snake]

Who knew there was so much animosity on this forum, I guess we're not a thamily lol.

Maybe this is why some people have abandoned this forum :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Who knew there was so much animosity on this forum, I guess we're not a thamily lol.

If anything, it proves we are family. LoL

[Selkielass]

Thanks for clarifying about the preservatives in packaged fish.
I remembered the post, but couldn't recall any sources cited, so I took it, as I take most info I find on the internet 'under consideration'. My ability to do research myself is pretty limited by r.l. resources.

[Didymus20X6]

I've been on other forums where the "We're a family" line has been used, and I've seen those other forums torn apart by bickering and infighting. I'll be blunt here: I don't know a single one of you personally, and none of you know me personally. I've sought information here, and found good information. I've participated in discussions, sometimes bringing to bear my own limited experience. I've even tried to have a little fun by joking around and such. But I harbor no illusions that a forum is any kind of family. But that's okay; it doesn't need to be. Just don't use the line to pretend that real conflict is unimportant.

[ConcinusMan]

Even when people on this forum are 'harsh' it's nothing compared to the drama I've seen on other reptile forums.

Tell me about it. You got that right.

[infernalis]

wanna see harsh?? spend time on Monitor Lizard forums.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks for clarifying about the preservatives in packaged fish.
I remembered the post, but couldn't recall any sources cited, so I took it, as I take most info I find on the internet 'under consideration'. My ability to do research myself is pretty limited by r.l. resources.

If you read, and can comprehend the info in the link below then you will understand why excessive salt and some preservatives (especially sodium based preservatives) are deadly to snakes. All fish has sodium in it naturally (fish must maintain salt balance in water because they don't actually drink) including tilapia (check the nutrition label of just raw fillet) but snakes just can't excrete excessive salt so it sucks the water right out of their cells, while the salt/preservatives/sodium overwhelms their kidneys and they die.

EVALUATING KIDNEY FUNCTION IN REPTILES (http://www.angelfire.com/al/repticare3/page9.html)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wanna see harsh?? spend time on Monitor Lizard forums.

Or if you are smart, stay far, FAR away from that mud slinging pit!

[ConcinusMan]

I can't even find it so I guess I'm safe

[RedSidedSPR]

I read through one of those when I was researching monitors (just curious)..

God.

And don't get me started on the gaming and NFL forums.

Gooddd.

This is by far the nicest forum I've seen, and I've been in a lot.

[SilasBannook]

All,
This is my first year with the forum. May I say that there is an ENORMOUS amount of information addressed here. As a new keeper of garter snakes I am thrilled with the information presented. I appreciate seeing other new keepers trying new things and other forum members addressing concerns or appreciation for things being done to care for our snakes. The care sheet is great but one of the things I have learned from my kids is that even though everything you may need to know is presented right in front of you, until you are ready to hear and understand, that information may just pass from one ear (or eye) to the other and not sink in. I like the addage my father pressed upon me that the wise man learns from his own mistakes but the wiser man learns first from someone else's. Repeat stories of threads which may have addressed issues in the past keep topics fresh and allow for us newbies to read a vibrant discussion of garter care.

I am sorry to see Snakeman so upset with the forum. I still feel this is a great place and I feel comfortable continuing to use this as a place to grow in my understanding of proper garter snake care. I will say that from all I have read, his reference over Talapia seems to be a nit. Perhaps he should have referenced a more significant example of bad advice. If that is the best he has, I suspect he had a really bad day and unfortunately something here set him off. Lastly, if Talapia is a significant negative, would someone start a new thread on that as I have begun feeding my babies that along with night crawlers. If as a newbie I am now setting my babies up for seizures I would love to know that and change my behavior. Keep smiling all. :D

[infernalis]

Or if you are smart, stay far, FAR away from that mud slinging pit!

Then I must not be too smart. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

You don't have a lick of sense :P

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think the term forum family is referring to garter snake enthusiast in general. Not necessarily that we are all close and personal friends, but that we all must stick together and help one another in caring for our pets. Let's face it to the outside herp community most people consider garters to be beginner or junk snakes. When i tell people i breed garter snakes i get all kinds of reactions, but some people laugh and change the subject. They don't know what they're missing. I don't think forum family means that we sit around and cuddle and hold hands like others stated, but simply try to help one another out of respect to the thamnophis community/hobby.

've sought information here, and found good information. I've participated in discussions, sometimes bringing to bear my own limited experience. I've even tried to have a little fun by joking around and such. But I harbor no illusions that a forum is any kind of family. But that's okay; it doesn't need to be. Just don't use the line to pretend that real conflict is unimportant.[/QUOTE]

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Where just a bunch of people from around the world that love the same thing.We share our personal experience and educate people on how to best care for the scaly nutters.That's what a forum is about and I'd wish more would be like this one.

[Steveo]

If it weren't for this forum I probably never would have gotten into garters. I always like to do my research before I jump into something and before I found this forum, the only detailed husbandry guide I had found was the one from the guy in the UK who feeds cat food to his garters. I found the forum and ordered some scrubs from Scott and spent the next two months reading up on garter care. One escaped due to a lack of dexterity on my part, another failed to thrive, but the rest have been healthy and problem-free thanks mostly to the advice found here.


The advice I follow doesn't just come from one or two people. If something sounds like a reasonable idea, I'll look for confirmation elsewhere before trying it. I also don't try new things just to try them. My background in biology helps me to make reasoned, informed decisions, but not everyone has my background. Sometimes the only way to learn is to ask people who may have had the same question and found an answer.

[EasternGirl]

I don't know...when I say forum family, I mean it both ways. We are a bunch of people, some of whom I do not know very well at all, that come together for our love of garters. But I have also made some wonderful friends on here...and consider this forum a place of friendship and a place I can come where I know people care about what I have to say and what my snakes are going through, and so forth. I do not have that bond with many people in the "real world". I have made some friends on here that I know, without a doubt, would drive for miles and miles to come to my aid if I were in dire straits. Look at how we pulled together when John passed...that, to me, is a family...more of a family than I have ever known anyway.

[infernalis]

You know what... With all of this "friends" talk, I simply have to share this.

Many years ago, I made a "friend" in Liverpool online, it was a music forum (yahoo group) and we talked for days about music.

The opportunity arose for me to fly over to the UK, so I contacted my "Friend" and he eagerly invited me to come stay with him.

It was exciting, until the first day I had to spend with him.

Seems the ONLY thing we had in common was the music we loved, other than that, we were so incompatible that by day three we all wanted each other dead.

After it was all over with, he and I never spoke again.

unless you have met, called or wrote, it's all just words on a screen.

If the internet crashed forever, everyone here would survive just fine.

[guidofatherof5]

I know I would be just fine.............. I have a lot of phone numbers.:D

[Invisible Snake]

I haz lots of frenz

[infernalis]

Where just a bunch of people from around the world that love the same thing.We share our personal experience and educate people on how to best care for the scaly nutters.That's what a forum is about and I'd wish more would be like this one.

We operate ssnakess.com on the same principal. However, due to size & variety of animals discussed, it has a wee bit more conflicts arise.

[Lisa4john]

I am a newbie. I never had interest in snakes, I knew there were garters around and that they were small and harmless so I left them alone. It was only this summer that I really interacted with one and found that I liked it. I for one have gotten a lot of help and guidance from this forum and appreciate it very much. No I don't take everything as gospel truth, and I apply what I can or want and leave what I don't.

In my excitement to share I have posted pix and info on some snakes I got. I have a LOT to learn. I set some free that I caught, and it was hard, but I know it was the right thing for them for me to do. I had one die and it was hard too. I had not fed her tilapia, just worms. I didn't know why and never will know, my guess is being wild caught she could have had parasites, or genetic weaknesses or anything else I could have done nothing to prevent. I cared for her, and did the best I could for her thinking she was doing well; one day here, gone the next, it happens, I understand that. I shared that I had them thus wanted to share that they were gone so that I didn't have someone ask later how they were doing and feel bad all over again. I was not looking for sympathy as much as letting go of feelings with people that understand that there are feeling related to the loss of a snake instead of the blank stare and "OK so... what's your problem, it's a snake", reaction from others. Does that make sense? I hope so.

After reading through this thread I took out of it that people don't wanna hear about the deaths and wondering what happened, among other things with food and such. So anyway, I will not share any new friends I get on here to spare sharing their progress or loss anymore.

[guidofatherof5]

Not sharing is a forum loss.

[ConcinusMan]

If the internet crashed forever, everyone here would survive just fine.

It's true folks. Believe it or not. I was 19 before it even existed for public use and I survived. Even though I've been a "computer geek" since the 1980's, I was 30 before I ever laid eyes on the web. Before that, you didn't lazily download apps. You got your butt up out of that chair and went down to the computer shop and bought them.;) Still got my copy of Windows 1.1 on 5.25 inch floppy disks.:p

[Stefan-A]

Still got my copy of Windows 1.1 on 5.25 inch floppy disks.:p
I have one of these:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/gamatic7704.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Wow. My parents did get us "pong" when it first came out but we quickly upgraded to an atari. I do still have an atari 6400 and about a dozen games. But these are gaming consoles, not computers.

I still own a "IBM compatable" with 64 kb of memory, no hard drive or HDD controller, 10 inch floppy drive. Also a 8 mhz PC (12 mhz in "turbo" mode) with MS-DOS 5.0 operating system, 85mb HDD and 1 mb of ram. (paid $900 for it. LoL) Runs windows 3.1 too, but just barely. Both these computers still work just fine.

EDIT: The atari is a 2600, not 6400. My bad.

Hey, I managed to derail a thread again. That was easy. :D

[Invisible Snake]

I lost internet access during Sandy and I did just fine :)

[ConcinusMan]

Live without internet for years. And without a cell phone for that matter. I was an adult before either of them existed. Never even got the phone until about a year or two ago. Apparently, I survived.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Yeah, we could all live without internet or thamnophis.com, but it's a privilege to be able to talk with other thamnophis entusiast and share our experiences with one another. Heck if we didn't have phones or internet most of us would only be able to catch and keep a few native snakes and wouldn't be able to get all these cool non native garters. It also helps the hobby majorly as far as selling and buying goes. I feel very blessed to be able to come on this forum and speak to all of you about thamnophis.

[ConcinusMan]

Long before internet or mobile phones, you could buy non-native snakes from breeders. I even used to see concinnus' for sale. The thing is, it was through little classified ads in magazines like "Reptiles magazine" or "vivarium" and the like. Definitely easier now though.

[d_virginiana]

The main thing that drew me to internet reptile forums was the fact that it was the only place to get reasonable healthcare advice for my pets for years. Until this summer, the only vets within two hours of me knew less about caring for reptiles than I did. We actually didn't get usable internet until I was around 13. Not that long in the big picture, but compared to a lot of people my age, I may as well have been living in the stone age!

... And then I realized that there were people out there breeding shiny new garter snakes in every color I could think of. Now I have three times the number of garters I did when I first discovered internet classifieds. :D

[jaleely]

Hey, just wanted to respond. I actually *wanted* him to reply and tell me his history. I wanted to make him want to reply.
I'm not going to respect anyone's fly by opinion, tell me who you are and why you think that way.
i could tell right away it was a frustration thing with the death of animals...but also come on, that is not the way to inform people. Just say "i'm upset over all the deaths i see, stop feeding feeder fish and talapia" and that will be a USEFUL post.

I've been on the inernet a lot of years. I've moderated. I've become fed up, i've joined new forums, left others, etc. All of us know there is no longevity with attitude. You can be blunt, but overall, no one is going to be receptive to information that is rude. You're just not going to come across a lot of mature people who can handle being told they're wrong.
if you really care about the welfare of the animals, you have to schmooze a bit. *shrug*
i mean at least provide the information to each individual once in a receptive way...if they don't take it then, then you can ignore them. Or vent. But no one picks up a book anymore...if they can't find it on the first page of google, they're not reading it.
Presenting it so they absorb it, read it, and don't get pissy about it and ignore it, may be the only way to reach some people and save pets. *shrug*

I just disagree with this slapdash posting style, frustrated or not.

[kimbosaur]

I don't understand where the comment about sugar coating advice is coming from. If somebody is doing something obviously wrong, it seems that more often than not, somebody will try and inform that member of a better solution, or discuss possible risks of their actions. I don't think people deserve to be attacked if they are making mistakes. As a complete newbie to reptiles, I really appreciate when people tell me I'm doing something wrong, but I also appreciate that I'm not shunned or attacked for it. The only reason I'm on this forum, or any forum for that matter, is because I want to learn as much as I can through other people's experience. There's a way to try and help people help their animals without being a **** about it.

[Jeff B]

Positive comment: Wow looks like Tom's comments really united everyone!
I do have some advice for everyone: buy more morphs! :D
I rarely have time anymore, but I certainly know where to go for my monthly overdose of drama.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it Joe, lol.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Did i miss something Jeff? Put what in my pipe?

[ConcinusMan]

Did i miss something Jeff? Put what in my pipe?

Nothing. Still illegal where you are so I'm sure that kind of thing doesn't go on there, right? :rolleyes:


We actually didn't get usable internet until I was around 13.

I was 20, and even then, it was dial-up at the blazing fast speed of 5-7 kbps.:cool:

[EasternGirl]

Put some nerds candy in your pipe Joe...and try to smoke it...you missed that discussion? Lol...I have no idea about the pipe. Look...I know the internet did not exist for years before I came on here and I survived fine. But progress is a good thing. Now, I have the ability to connect with people all over the world...keep in touch with family and friends who live far away...reconnect with people I haven't seen in years. I love this forum. I don't interact with a lot of people...and because of this forum, I can interact with people on a daily basis and share my love of garters that noone around here will ever understand. I have friends on here that I have been friends with for 3 years now. We have talked on the phone, emailed, skyped. I know without a doubt they would still be my friends if I threw my computer out a window and never used the internet again. When I disappeared from the forum for like, a year, a couple of years ago...Steve called me several times to check on me and make sure I was okay and to catch up. Mike came to Delaware and stayed for the weekend. Chantel and I have chatted, one way or another..over the years since I joined this forum. I consider Steve and Mike to be my two closest friends. Chris and I haven't chatted personally in a while with our busy lives...but I know he is my friend. I know I could show up in the U.K. and tell him I was on the way to his house and he would be happy to see me. I have also met people on the internet who turned out to be duds...but I have met more people in the real world, who I spent time with, in person, for years and then they ended up being jerks and I had to get rid of them. When people share the death of their snakes on here...I genuinely care and feel for them. So whatever...I like this place and consider my friendships that I have made on here very dear to me.

[Greg'sGarters]

Ok, a lot of people on this forum have A TON of experience. If you don't think people should feed their fish frozen fish fillets, start a thread called don't feed fillets! And also, what say do you have in what we decide to feed our​ snakes?

[guidofatherof5]

Just my personal opinion.

This thread had was dead and doesn't need resurrected. ;) Let the dead rest.