Possible RI ?

[Foxrun402]

So my buddie said hey maybe you can help come over fast...

He found a baby radix and the poor guy has a broken tail and not only that but seemed to be having seizures and was very dry looking!

I just got em home and took a few pics ill put those up in a minute but I soaked him in treated luke warm water to get his temp up because this is nebraska and it was cold! He seems to be moving alot better but upon watching him he dosent seem to be breathing ! :eek:

When he has his mini seizure like movements he opens his mouth as if he is trying to gasp for air !!!

I will monitor him and see if his condition gets any better but i'm afraid there isnt much i can do !!!

and this baby snake is gorgeous :( any thoughts ?

Video of this :
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/th_44_zps494dc755.jpg

P (http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/44_zps494dc755.mp4)icture:
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps213afd86.jpg

[Greg'sGarters]

When I saw the video, a few things came to mind that might be causing it.

1. Dehydration
2. Mites
Often times, when snakes have mites, they will make weird movements to try to shake them off. They also can be seen rubbing their scales/heads up against
the substrate to rub them off. Look for either little black dots or little white dots. The black dots would be the mites themselves, the white dots would be their
feces. Try soaking him and look for little black dots in the water. If he does turn out to have mites get about 3/4 gallon of lukewarm water in a bucket. Next,
add a few drops of Dawn Dish Soap to the water. DON'T OVERDO IT. There should be just enough for slight bubbles of form when stirred up. Let him soak in it
for an hour.
3. Parasites
Try deworming him. That often causes a lot of problems.

[Foxrun402]

So Its been with me for about 15 minutes now it seems to be doing much better already... My buddie put him in a container with dirt like a noobie... and so soaking him every so often just to check him out... only using water treated with reptisafe for this at the moment... later today I will try and feed him some nightcrawler bits and see how he is doing... but will keep an eye on him for a while

[Greg'sGarters]

Ok sounds good! Also you mentioned that your friend put him in a dirt container? Don't put him on dirt, it can get in his mouth and cause problems. And if kept on damp dirt for an extended period of time, it can cause scale rot. But keep me updated on his progress!!!

[Foxrun402]

Well so far so good... he is very docile... maybe just very glad to have someone that cares! he has stopped the seizure like movements and is on paper towels in quarantine... I will try and give him some nightcrawler and pinky bits later... im sure he needs food to get strength back... when I got my hands on him he was basically rigi-mortis! Now he is active as normal!! I am so happy !

Edit: he keeps folowing my hands around from inside his container indicating hunger to me... just my opinion

[guidofatherof5]

Food might take awhile as he was preparing for brumation.

[Foxrun402]

Would it be a bad idea to introduce "Her" to Suzi since I didn't bother sexing her earlier because i was too concerned for her condition but she is a girl for sure... and now she appears to be doing great!


I did put her in there for a short duration to get some of the heat lamp and she seemed to want to explore everything... Suzi was burrowed under the substrate in her hide sleeping the whole time LOL

Under the light... Looking healthy now!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps802b4972.jpg
Healthly looking little girl now wouldn't you say? :cool:

Edit: I also bathed her several times in luke warm water with solution to remove hard metals and chlorine... and after several times the water came clear before I put her under the heat lamp

[ConcinusMan]

That snake is suffering from a retained shed. You mentioned he was "dry looking". That was my first clue. Second clue was the video. I've seen this so many times that I am very sure this is a retained shed. Unfortunately, when it gets that far, when the snake is making those movements (gaping, having trouble breathing) there's usually nothing you can do and the snake usually dies soon thereafter.

At some point (reasons aren't known) the snake failed to shed it's skin when it was time. The old skin fused to the new (by now there's little hope of getting it off without seriously injuring the snake) and now the snake is literally being strangled to death by it's own skin.

Sometimes hydrating the skin can make it more flexible which temporarily makes the snake seem better. Now you mention the snake seems to be doing better. Did you check the entire tank to see if by some chance, the snake did shed it's skin? If not, take the snake out and put it some place it can dry out. Does the symptoms return? does the skin start looking wrinkly/dry? If so, that's a retained shed/failure to shed.

I had a baby radix go through this several times. Eventually, it died, unable to breathe.

[ConcinusMan]

he dosent seem to be breathing ! :eek:

When he has his mini seizure like movements he opens his mouth as if he is trying to gasp for air !!!

I will monitor him and see if his condition gets any better but i'm afraid there isnt much i can do !!!

That's because he's not. He's exhausted from the extra effort to breathe, due to the old skin causing constriction.

He is not only trying to gasp for air, but the skin is squeezing him so hes trying to stretch it out.

Correct. There isn't much you can do other than soaking the snake in tepid water and hope he sheds.

Just for future reference, when a snake has an RI it doesn't look like that. They will just open their mouth slightly and take deep labored breaths every now and then. Often there is audible wheezing/sneezing. There won't be that jerky "seizure" type movement. Looks more like this video (when the snake opens its mouth, you can clearly see mucous, which is blocking the snakes ability to breath through his nostrils) RI's are rare in the wild. In captivity they are usually caused by keeping the tank uniformly warm/too warm/lack of proper temperature gradient.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUH71DBva9E

[guidofatherof5]

If it is a retained shed a soak like Richard said is good.
After the soak see if you can get the shed started at the corner of the mouth or at the vent.

[ConcinusMan]

The vent is usually the best place to start but don't force it too hard. You could end up peeling off the new skin. If you do manage to get it started near the vent, peel it backwards toward the head. This seems to work for me occasionally. But at this point I would say if the snake seems better, wait and see. He may have shed. Check all the substrate for skin.

[Foxrun402]

No after several soaks she is doing fine ! she is acting normal... tongue flickering all over like crazy... trying to climb all over everything lol

She seems perfect now... I even got her to eat 1/2 a night crawler cut into pieces! :D

Here she is thanking me for her dinner!
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsace28f78.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

That's great but the issue is still at hand. You need to determine if it is a retained shed.

[Foxrun402]

I don't believe that it is a retained shed, I think she was just very cold and dehydrated... After soaking her and putting her under the heat light she didn't appear to look blue or faded anywhere and she lets me handle her without any problems and I couldn't find anything that looked out of place or not normal

Edit: also feeding behavior appeared normal as well.. no problems eating or didn't appear to have any of the "shakes" while eating

[Foxrun402]

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps18d114b0.jpg

This is her stretching up the back wall... and Suzi is on the ground like who is this? lol

Anyways ... Her pattern and scales are bright and vivid with color

[d_virginiana]

Glad to hear the new snake is doing better :)

However, if I were you, I'd remove her from your snake's tank. Even snakes that come from breeders and appear perfectly healthy should be quarantined for three months at least. Even if she was just cold and dehydrated, wild snakes almost all have something (be it parasites or diseases) that you don't want your pet snakes to get.

[Foxrun402]

She isn't having any problems now... just one chill radix... she doesnt seem to care much about me being around she even come to the glass to see me when i come into the room its crazy! I have never seen a snake act this way... It's like she is showing me affection

[guidofatherof5]

So, this possibly sick snakes was placed in with another snake. If any animal needed to be quarantine it would have been this one.
Placing a questionable animal in with a healthy is rolling the dice. Not good.
Just my opinion.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/7224-quarantine-talk-thread.html

[Foxrun402]

They are both technically wild caught, but Suzi does have a clean bill of health and I didn't really have much other sources to warm her up...

she was only in there for maybe 15 minutes and they only saw each other for a few seconds before Suzi ran off to hide... I do have her in a separate small terrarium on paper towels with a hide and treated water... I will just have to wait and see what she does... Her recovery so far is looking very good though... I will most likely get her into a vet as well though, Suzi has to go in at the end of november...

[d_virginiana]

I ran into a similar problem when I brought in a rescue turtle this summer, and her temps needed to be at a constant 85-90 but I had no spare equipment. In the future, a dark tupperware container sat next to your snakes' enclosures works well. The plastic absorbs the heat from your pets' heat sources and creates a very warm spot.

[Foxrun402]

Well I went all out on her and gave her... her own mini viv!... If she's gonna be in quarantine... she's gonna be happy... and she already seems to be ok with it... I have a little infared heat gun for my RC car and it seems to work perfect for reading the temps and the temp in there with the light on is about 83 so its not so bad the water apparently is 74 so that's a good cool spot lol

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zpsc2140b53.jpg

She is very pretty... I hope she turns out ok

[ConcinusMan]

Me too. Keep and eye on those temps. Could probably stand to a little cooler but don't let it get hotter. I would also turn off the heat/light for at least 9 hours at night. Try to make it the same hours every night. They do well on routine. Not so well with erratic hours.

No more of the symptoms you described/showed us?

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking T.radix.

[ConcinusMan]

she didn't appear to look blue or faded anywhere and she lets me handle her without any problems

Edit: also feeding behavior appeared normal as well.. no problems eating or didn't appear to have any of the "shakes" while eating

They don't appear blue or opaque when it's a retained shed. Remember, by the time it's shedding time, they clear up. No more cloudy look. With a retained shed, they just look rather dull and somewhat dark compared to normal. But this doesn't look like that. There's nice contrast. Maybe it isn't retained shed but the only other times I've seen that reaction/motion is when it was a retained shed. But it doesn't just go away unless they shed.

[Foxrun402]

Yah their heat lamps are on a timer so they are only on for 12 hours during the day and then they dim out... luckily the timer was dual outlet and now its working for both of them lol

Edit: and no she seems to be doing much better... she is very active though and curious about what I am doing all the time lol

I also got her to eat piece of a pinky earlier and she seemed to enjoy that so i will let her rest a few days now because she seems to be packed on food already... need to just let her be for a while and watch her closely... will keep this updated though!

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds great. Glad it wasn't the worst-case scenario I described.:)

[Foxrun402]

I actually think she may have bigger problems... This morning she was wandering around and then she just all the sudden flipped out and basically died again..n I could see this bulge in her so i felt it a little and it moved... I gently moved it all the way up and regurgitated her... then soaked her and sat her under the heat lamp... miraculously... she came back to me... and she is wandering around again.... I don't know what to say to this I tried to rub war water and a soft wash cloth all over her last night and couldn't get anything to happen with that... Maybe she ate something in the outside world causing this? She is ok for now...

[Foxrun402]

Her tail was broken a good ways up from the vent as well... She isn't looking good and now the thing that happened this morning was not good it was similar to the cases of people waking up with crushed babies from failure to thrive thats how she looked this morning when i revived her again... not sure there is much i can do

[Foxrun402]

she is having seizures again =(

I think it may be pain from the broken tail.... but that im not sure of....

[Foxrun402]

She is off substrate back on paper towels and bare minimums

Her last seizure :( .... T.o.D... 11-5-12 7:10am, Cause still unknown =*(

when she past she looked failure to thrive... crushed in... I put her in the water bowl head out of water once again and only got one last head nod before she couldn't do it anymore =( she was so awesome right when i got her and started caring for her and affectionate barely got to know her but will miss her for sure =(

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear she died. Sounds like she wouldn't have made it through brumation in the wild.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry to hear it.

[Foxrun402]

She was having a hard enough time coming back to the way she was when I got her home... I tried... =(. Now tonight I will give suzi's tank a good scrub and its time for her to eat... Thank goodness she is doing well

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds great. Glad it wasn't the worst-case scenario I described.:)

Premature I guess.:(

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry for your loss :(

[Foxrun402]

All media content for this has been moved to L (http://s1342.beta.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/library/Urgent%20care%20Radix)ost but not forgotten (http://s1342.beta.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/library/Lost%20but%20not%20forgotten) (PB Album) Just for future reference and in-case the information is needed later on.

R.I.P little girl =/

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I see that. You know, when you move it, the links become invalid, and now the pics don't show in the thread at all. You can't hotlink to something that is no longer there.:cool: