Colors in Garters

[Ctah_Lu]

Hi everybody, i have read that are colors like hypomelanistic, anerythristic, amelanistic, etc. and i want to know what kind of coloration must have a snake to be considered in any of these groups and how many color variations are (only the main ones). I been loking for this info for a long time but wasnt able to find a well explained article.

Thanks, see you.

[RedSidedSPR]

The term would be morph, rather than color, and there's a ton of variations for most species/subspecies.

Here's a list of most, if not all, of them: Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/genetics.html)

It all has to do with genetics, if you want a detailed explanation, here's a good article: Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

[Ctah_Lu]

Thanks, that information was what i been looking for.

[ConcinusMan]

the traits you mentioned are often mutations. There are a lot of color variations and phases that aren't mutations too. Such as, red T. radix, which technically you could call "erythristic" but I don't think it's a mutated gene that's responsible. Same goes for erythristic T. oridnoides. They're not mutants either but melanistic ones do have a mutated recessive gene. It's complicated and there are a lot of different things to learn but stick around for a year or two and you'll know them all.

[Artic Exotics]

Oh and there is polymorphism. Essentially where a snake in the wild has the ability to be several different colors or patterns naturally. For example in my T. Ordinoides, all three of my adults are bright bright red. Their babies were 5 yellow, one orange-yellow, one blue ( the only FTT :/) and one red.

I can not find the photo credit for this and I hate to post something that does not belong to me, but it is a great example of what i am referring to and if anyone does have the photo credits for this please do post it so that they can get credit for their work.
7584

[guidofatherof5]

Ordies are awesome.

[Artic Exotics]

I know right? I was soo stoked when that blue was born. Male too im pretty sure (im badly female heavy). He made it looking completely healthy for 3 days and mysteriously passed without warning. It was like SIDS for garters or something- im just calling it a FTT. But the rest of the babies just thrived so I will be repeating the pairing this year. Been hoping for a lime for years (for sentimental reasons)but yeah I just love the polymorphism.

[d_virginiana]

A fair amount of Eastern morphs are naturally occurring too. Erythristics can be found near the NC/SC coasts, Florida blues are pretty common, and I think flames can be found in the wild too. For some reason I'm thinking Canada? Could be wrong.
They don't usually look the same in the wild though, most of these are made from crossing wc snakes with those traits with each other to get extreme versions.

Garters eventually turn into an expensive version of pokemon. Once you realize there are so many kinds, you have to get them all.

[SilasBannook]

You are right on the Pokemon analogy. With all the diiferent colors and personalities I feel the same way. Totally jealous of the forum members who are able to manage large collections.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not jealous of those who manage large collections. I seriously have my doubts that they can truly know each individual. The more snakes you have, the less time you have for each one as an individual. If one gets into large collections right from the start, they miss out on that insight which years of working with few snakes can bring. Luckily, I've been keeping the local garter species for decades before I ever had more than 5 or so at a time and I have always in the past kept individuals long term (years) You really get to know them as a species, and still to this day, every new snake brings familiarity of the species but at the same time, if I keep the numbers limited, I never cease to find the quirks of the individual personalities. This is the main reason I have my limits on the size of my collection. Going beyond a certain number (that number will be different for every person) something is lost. It's like the difference between owning a few family dogs in the household, and owning a kennel full with several hundred. Personally I get much more joy out of owning just a few.

Each snake doesn't care if we give them the attention. They're not mammals. But if we get to know them individually, over long term, the joy is all ours. I'm pretty sure the snakes could care less about attention but if we can't get to know them long term as individuals, we don't necessarily cheat the snakes, but we might be cheating ourselves.

[Greg'sGarters]

Think of it like this, 2 brown eyed people have a brown eyed child. That child would be brown eyed. 2 people with blue eyes had a blue eyed child. That child would be blue eyed. 2 people, one with brown eyes, one with blue eyes have a brown eyed kid. That kid would be brown eyed het for blue eyed. Hope this helps!

[ConcinusMan]

Brown eyes = dominant (only takes one parent to have brown eyes)
Blue or green eyes = recessive. (like albino is recessive) Takes both parents to contribute the gene in order for the child to show the trait. (homozygous) Both parents don't have to have blue or green eyes as long as they carry the gene (het for it) and pass it to the child.

I have hazel eyes (which are defined as blue, green, blue-green, or gray, with brown specks) are the result of two codominant genes which are both expressed at the same time. The interesting thing is that, at times my eyes appear very blue. Other times, they appear more like olive-green. They actually change color, but the brown specks always remain.

A good example of this type of color in snakes, are the "super" forms of some morphs. The "super" form for a codominant gene is expressed when the snake inherited the codominant gene from both parents. But even "hets" which only inherited the gene from one parent, still display the trait. Sometimes they are called "visual hets".

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Hey richard, i think the brown specks mean that you're full of it.

brown eyes = dominant (only takes one parent to have brown eyes)
blue or green eyes = recessive. (like albino is recessive) takes both parents to contribute the gene in order for the child to show the trait. (homozygous) both parents don't have to have blue or green eyes as long as they carry the gene (het for it) and pass it to the child.

I have hazel eyes (which are defined as blue, green, blue-green, or gray, with brown specks) are the result of two codominant genes which are both expressed at the same time. The interesting thing is that, at times my eyes appear very blue. Other times, they appear more like olive-green. They actually change color, but the brown specks always remain.

A good example of this type of color in snakes, are the "super" forms of some morphs. The "super" form for a codominant gene is expressed when the snake inherited the codominant gene from both parents. But even "hets" which only inherited the gene from one parent, still display the trait. Sometimes they are called "visual hets".

[ConcinusMan]

Hey richard, i think the brown specks mean that you're full of it.

No, that's splatter. Just means I've seen a lot of **** and have been putting up with a lot of it over the years. You're bound to get splatter marks.:cool:

[Ctah_Lu]

Brown eyes = dominant (only takes one parent to have brown eyes)
Blue or green eyes = recessive. (like albino is recessive) Takes both parents to contribute the gene in order for the child to show the trait. (homozygous) Both parents don't have to have blue or green eyes as long as they carry the gene (het for it) and pass it to the child.

I have hazel eyes (which are defined as blue, green, blue-green, or gray, with brown specks) are the result of two codominant genes which are both expressed at the same time. The interesting thing is that, at times my eyes appear very blue. Other times, they appear more like olive-green. They actually change color, but the brown specks always remain.

A good example of this type of color in snakes, are the "super" forms of some morphs. The "super" form for a codominant gene is expressed when the snake inherited the codominant gene from both parents. But even "hets" which only inherited the gene from one parent, still display the trait. Sometimes they are called "visual hets".

Very interesting, I didnt know that human eyes can change color, theres something new to learn everyday.:)

[ProXimuS]

Very interesting, I didnt know that human eyes can change color, theres something new to learn everyday.:)

They don't actually change color. It just depends on what color you are wearing, or surrounded by I guess. Certain colors next to other certain colors will make each other stand out alot. For instance if you have hazel eyes, and you wear a red shirt, more than likely your eyes will look more green, as red and green are complimentary colors(opposites on the color wheel).

[ConcinusMan]

Very interesting, I didnt know that human eyes can change color.:)

I never said they change color.;)

From the web: "Hazel eyes are difficult to define because their appearance changes with surrounding colors and lighting. Like blue and green eyes, hazel eyes are as reflective as a pond. If the sky is blue, the water appears to be blue; if the sky is overcast, the water appears to be gray or brown. Captured in photographs, without the benefit of the natural scattering of light, hazel eyes often appear brown or dark gray"

To complicate matters, even though my eyes are defined as "hazel" I don't think they look anything like "typical" hazel eyes. You have to look very closely to see any brown at all and there's very little. Just saying that sometimes they give the overall impression that they are blue, other times, olive green. Most of the time, they look blue, but a sort of greyed out blue, not piercing bright blue. They look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Blue-green-gray-eyes.jpg

My mothers eyes are that same color of blue, but no brown specs, and her I.D. says they are blue. (Dads are brown) Just the very few traces of brown specs makes mine hazel, I guess, but they don't look hazel to me. I've even gotten grief from the cops over that one. They didn't think I was who I said I am.

Apparently, the "blue" gene my mother carries is NOT recessive as most blue eyes are. Combined with the brown eyes my dad has, I ended up having both colors in my eye. Anyway, I guess where this falls into the discussion of snakes is that some genes for color are codominant. Meaning, genes for two different colors can both have an effect on the outer appearance of the offspring and so the offspring will have a combination of both.

[ProXimuS]

I never said they change color.;)




Yes you did;)




They actually change color, but the brown specks always remain.

[ConcinusMan]

Must have been a typo. Seriously, it should have read "they don't actually change color" and if you look at what else I said, I said that they appear blue at times, green at others. Not that they actually are.

[Stefan-A]

Eyes don't have a color.

First one to explain why, gets a prize.

[Invisible Snake]

Eyes don't have a color.

First one to explain why, gets a prize.

Because it's the iris that has the color?

[chris-uk]

Eyes don't have a color.

First one to explain why, gets a prize.

What is colour anyway? Just the way an object reflects or transmits different frequencies of light.

For what it's worth, my eyes are the same as Richard's. We say that my eyes change colour depending on the light, whether they actually change colour or not isn't relevant really, colour is all in the perception.

[Stefan-A]

What is colour anyway? Just the way an object reflects or transmits different frequencies of light.
Exactly.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, but the eyes don't actually change color. They just appear to, because the frequency range of the light that's hitting them changes. That's true of any object. If the only light hitting a white wall is blue, then of course, it's going to reflect blue. I don't really know if my eyes actually change the way they reflect light but I'll tell you one thing. Those blue anery concinnus' do. Depending on temperature, the skin pigments do change what they reflect. I noticed this when brumating a very stunningly blue concinnus a couple of winters ago. When cold, it loses the blue and turns more of greyed out greenish hue. When fully warmed it's sky blue.

[ProXimuS]

Chris you beat me to it!!:p

[ConcinusMan]

There is no prize. The prize is a lie.:p

[Stefan-A]

There is no prize. The prize is a lie.:p

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/cake.jpg

[-MARWOLAETH-]

The colour we see is controlled and sometimes made up by the brain. There was a BBC Horizon Doc about.I can't find the whole episode but I found this clip BBC Two - Horizon, 2011-2012, Do You See What I See?, How do we see colour? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00jp954)

[Ctah_Lu]

What is colour anyway? Just the way an object reflects or transmits different frequencies of light.

For what it's worth, my eyes are the same as Richard's. We say that my eyes change colour depending on the light, whether they actually change colour or not isn't relevant really, colour is all in the perception.

Thats true, all our world is defined by our own perception, what is blue for you can be aquamarine for me, etc.

* Human eyes cant change color, at least not like the octopus can change color, I get it now.:)

Thamnophis.com, the place where Garter Snakes, Philosophy and Quantum Physics meet.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, the Octopus doesn't change color either. It just manipulates what frequencies of light get reflected. If I'm not mistaken it can actually manipulate the wavelength of light, changing it's (frequency) color.

[Stefan-A]

Thamnophis.com, the place where Garter Snakes, Philosophy and Quantum Physics meet.
Not quantum, this is pretty basic.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Humans glow in the dark | Science | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/jul/17/human-bioluminescence)

[chris-uk]

Not quantum, this is pretty basic.

For our next discussion I'd propose "Schrodinger's Radix", a thought experiment which has practical application to the brumation of snakes. But maybe that is for another thread.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I thought of one involving
-A radix
-A box
-Goldfish
-Red wrigglers
:p

[Frenchie]

Yes you are right for the "Flames" they are found in Quebec.