Brumation conditions: Dry, humid or wet?

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2012/submergence1.jpg




http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2012/submergence2.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Good addition to the thread. Thanks Stefan.

[ConcinusMan]

I find the snakes I brumate spend a lot of time in the water dish.

Me too. But wet substrate? I think not. I'll pass on that.


Good addition to the thread. Thanks Stefan.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on that as far as care in captivity goes. Remember, a lot of things happen in the wild. Doesn't mean it's good for captivity. I've seen the shape garter snakes are in when they come out of a water logged hibernaculum. Terrible. Blisters, skin infections, RI's, etc. I know that if I kept them on wet substrate during hibernation, it wouldn't be but a few days before the substrate start smelling like mushrooms growing on a rotted log. That can't be good.

[Thamnophis]

As a substrate for brumating the snakes I use wood fiber (for many years).

http://www.dinys.nl/shop/images/ZAAGSEL.JPG

I fill a box with it for about 50/60 %. I keep it under the tap and stir the wood fiber till everything is wet. On the bottom of the box I keep a layer of water of a 0,5 cm. On top of the wood fiber I lay an old towel (cut in the right size) which I make wet too.

This substrate never smells like mushrooms of any other mold. Keep it at 4 - 6 degrees Celsius (39-42 degrees Fahrenheit) in a refrigerator. Most snakes are kept in this box for 2 - 2,5 months. Last year I kept my eastern blackneck garter snakes in it for 4 months and no molding occurred.

Some of the snakes lay on top of the towel, others underneath the towel and others dig tunnels to brumate in.
As I said... no losses up to now. Even the yoy all survive and come out of it in good health.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/thamnophis/pics/winterslaap.gif

I brumated my New Mexico garter snakes last year in a box with a water bowl in it. This was a recommendation from the breeder. The substrate also was quite wet.
The result was that they never went in the water bowl (I would have known when they did because there wood be some wood fiber pieces in the water). Look at the pics how the four snakes were found every time. On top of them was a piece of moist towel that I took of for making the pictures.
The breeder kept his substrate quite dry and the result was that the snakes always were in the water bowl.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/thamnophis/pics/winterslaap_dorsalis.gif

[CrazyHedgehog]

This was a detailed explanation, thank you, how did you get the pictures to keep refreshing with new pics?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Me too. But wet substrate? I think not. I'll pass on that.



I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on that as far as care in captivity goes. Remember, a lot of things happen in the wild. Doesn't mean it's good for captivity. I've seen the shape garter snakes are in when they come out of a water logged hibernaculum. Terrible. Blisters, skin infections, RI's, etc. I know that if I kept them on wet substrate during hibernation, it wouldn't be but a few days before the substrate start smelling like mushrooms growing on a rotted log. That can't be good.Is a smelly substrate really worse than a desiccated snake?

[Selkielass]

This makes a lot of sense.
My Butlerii use wet hides on a regular basis when they are available.
preferred brumation sites are quite wet, with ground too soft to drive a vehicle on and, aside from themounds themselves, wet enough to support crayfish, frogs and other wetland natives and invasive species.
I've rattemted to roughly duplicate this habitat in a naturalistic terrarium, and they choose to spend most of their 'down'cage time burrowing in the dampest part of the substrate. At 'dawn' they begin prowling, climbing the dried reeds and driftwood and sunning themselves openly.
Now these are adults, but Cranky was as skittish and nasty tempered as possible when I you.d him this spring. He continued to be 'Cranky' in in a more traditional habitat.

After adjusting to the new natural habitat, his attitude has changed markedly for the better. He is visibly more relaxed and accepting of more human contact. Less stressed.


Im preparing Cranky and Trax for brumation. I was considering offering a damp hide before reading this, now Im definitely going to do so.
Butlerii are sensitive to low humidity. My house is extremely dry in winter.
This makes sense.

[Thamnophis]

This was a detailed explanation, thank you, how did you get the pictures to keep refreshing with new pics?

Herefore I use Jasc Animation Shop. But there are more programms that can make a .gif of a number of pictures.

[Selkielass]

I'm moving cautiously with the damper, naturalistic habitat but so far it is indeed a success.
I'll offer damp spaghum hides, dry areas, and a water dish so they can choose.
I will report any problems I note, but please realize this is my first serious attempt at brumation.

I'm not sure those wood shavings pictured are aspen. Other species don't mold so quickly.
I've found sphagnum to be mold resistant, so i'll give that a try.

[Thamnophis]

Concinnusman, if the air in your region is heavily infested with mold spores, I understand what you mean. This would mean that the substrate already may be infested before you start using it.
If dry substrate with an additional water bowl works for you, I see why you will not change this method. I wouldn't do that too.
If things work, don't change it... that is one of the lessons I learned in my life. Good is good and than you don't have to go for better.

I shall show you some pics that are made 40 days after starting the brumation. So you can see that that, in my region, it doesn't mold.

[Stefan-A]

What type of wood are you using?

[Thamnophis]

As far as I know it is mainly wood from Pinus sylvestris and/ or Picea abies.

[Thamnophis]

I do believe that, but as you probably already know, fungus is not always seen but can be detected by smelling the substrate.

I agree, but no smell, no coloration and no ill snakes for many years are allright by me.

[snakeman]

I brumate my snakes for 4 months every year.water bowl,paper towels,and a hide. I check on them one time during the 4 months.substrate is always wet from them going in and out of the bowl.usually some mold in there too.never had any snakes have blisters or die during brumation.

[snakeman]

Urates in the water?cmom some elite athletes drink thier own urine because of the health benefits.the blisters you are speaking of are from a fungus thats gets spread from den to den from people going to multiple dens poaching their snakes

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Does the substrate have to be damp or soaking wet?

[guidofatherof5]

As far as I know it is mainly wood from Pinus sylvestris and/ or Picea abies.

Any concerns about the aromatics in the Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) and Norway Spruce (Picea abies)?
Is it the chemical make-up and possibly the temp that keeps the wood from starting to mold?
Is this wood only used in brumation or as a normal bedding too?

Thank you Steve Schmidt for the discussion on this subject last night.

[ConcinusMan]

Any concerns about the aromatics in the Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) and Norway Spruce (Picea abies)?
Is it the chemical make-up and possibly the temp that keeps the wood from starting to mold?
Is this wood only used in brumation or as a normal bedding too?

Thank you Steve Schmidt for the discussion on this subject last night.


That's funny. I was just about to post the following when I read your thread Steve.


As far as I know it is mainly wood from Pinus sylvestris and/ or Picea abies.

No wonder it doesn't mold. And I am pretty sure you shouldn't use pine or cedar for reptiles and some other animals. For the same reason it doesn't mold. The resins are toxic. Some people don't believe that because they've "been using it for years". Yeah, all the while it's been quietly causing organ damage in your reptiles.

I use aspen and if you were to use it, or any safe hardwood, I'm pretty sure you'll see what I mean about keeping it wet. In no time at all it smells like an old wet sock that's been sitting in the laundry basket for a month. Then a bit later, visible mold/mildew appears. The spores are not good at all for the respiratory health of the snake.

So, which is it? I mean, the package either says it's pine or it doesn't. No need to guess what it is.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Could moss be used to avoid the mold?

[ConcinusMan]

Not sure. I do know that live moss doesn't mold but once it dies it can mold and start breaking down. How about keeping it dry in the first place so it can't mold. There's a novel idea.

[guidofatherof5]

Fons (Thamnophis) would you please give us some more details on your brumation materials and procedures.
I would also like to hear your insights as to why this wood material works so well for you and has done so for so long.
It's probably that Dutch water.:D

[ConcinusMan]

It's probably the pine. I've never had any molding problems with that either. But given that the only options around here are pine, cedar, or aspen, I'll take the aspen. Just don't keep it wet.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

I made this mistake a few years back. I brumated mine in dry conditions and almost lost a few snakes. Never had a problem using moist substrates since. I use damp leaves but after speaking with Fons last month I am going to try his method as well.

[ConcinusMan]

I made this mistake a few years back. I brumated mine in dry conditions and almost lost a few snakes.

Now why do you suppose you "almost" lost them, if that is indeed the case. What's your theory on how dry substrate "almost" killed your snakes?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Now why do you suppose you "almost" lost them, if that is indeed the case. What's your theory on how dry substrate "almost" killed your snakes?. They were badly dehydrated. I brumated them in the same way I did my rat snakes ect. Im not going to pretend I know why but for me it was simple. The thams and natrix that were kept moist I have never had a single problem. When I did dry I had many sick snakes. If it works for you fine, but not for me.

[ConcinusMan]

Seems to me like it wouldn't make any difference if they have access to clean drinking water, and adequate humidity. I've never seen snakes get dehydrated when they have that. Brumating or not.

Not really looking to start an argument again but I'm having a hard time with swallowing the dehydration issue. It's never happened to me. They always have fresh water to drink and humidity above 50% though.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Seems to me like it wouldn't make any difference if they have access to clean drinking water, and adequate humidity. I've never seen snakes get dehydrated when they have that. Brumating or not.

Not really looking to start an argument again but I'm having a hard time with swallowing the dehydration issue. It's never happened to me. They always have fresh water to drink and humidity above 50% though.

Well it did happen to me and I learnt from it. They had clean water ect exactly the same way I cool my rat snakes and they were dehydrated. Now the past few years I've used wet leaves and every snake has come out in great condition. So it's a no brainer for me. No one is saying what your doing is wrong. As you say you have no problems. Maybe it's different for the species you keep or even the climate or humidity is different where you are.

[ConcinusMan]

Weird

[ConcinusMan]

http://oi48.tinypic.com/27y7orm.jpg

[Thamnophis]

Well Steve, I use this wood-material because it does not mold.
I fill a box with it and poor water on it until it is quite wet. I turn the box over and let most of the water drip out. At the end I have moist substrate and some mm water on the bottom of the box. I place a wet towel or cloth on top of the substrate, place the snakes in it and close the box. Then it goes in the refrigerator.

The Dutch water ( in my province) is excellent and completely tasteless. Don't know how that is in the USA.

[ConcinusMan]

In most cases, floridated and chlorinated. In some places it's horrible tasting, in others, it's just somewhat tolerable. In any case, it comes out of the tap and you can smell chlorine gas. Unless you happen to be lucky enough to get your water from a private well. Where I'm at now is rated some of the best tap water in the country. I still don't drink it. Not because it's not safe, but because it tastes like crap.

[Artic Exotics]

Alaskan tap water is supposed to be all pure and from the glaciers and junk. in real life it contains a good amount of arsenic and everywhere ive been the tap water tastes terrible... Its not just you lol

[Jeff B]

I have often witnessed most of my snakes completely submerged in the water bowl during brumation. I was talking to Joe about this a couple years ago and he said he often sees the same thing.

[ConcinusMan]

Mine are almost always in their water bowl while brumating. I also change the water every few days but I keep the substrate dry. No dehydration issues.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey is 40 degrees Fahrenheit (4.4 degrees Celsius) too cold for garters in brumation?

[Stefan-A]

For southern species, probably.

[ConcinusMan]

Hey is 40 degrees Fahrenheit (4.4 degrees Celsius) too cold for garters in brumation?

I think that's pushing it. I go with 45 F minimum, 50 max. 90-120 days.

[Selkielass]

Mine are at about 45the degrees, and I still see a lot of movement and evidence of movement (debris in water dish) when I look in each day.
They've been taken slowly down to this temp for several days.
Will they slow down more or is this activity normal?

[ConcinusMan]

Mine are at about 45the degrees, and I still see a lot of movement and evidence of movement (debris in water dish) when I look in each day.

So? It's not like they never move during brumation. If people are making sure they are totally immobilized, no wonder they're dehydrating. Around here, snakes actually come out of their dens (although they don't wander) on mild winter days to catch some sun. It is thought that they also move deeper during cold spells and move closer to the surface when it's warmer. There is some winter activity when the temperatures/conditions allow it.

Remember, snakes don't truly hibernate. Don't expect them to be totally unconscious.

[Selkielass]

This is my first attempt at full brumation- I'm not sure how much movement is normal, and how much would signify something is wrong -w too much noise light etc.
It surprised me to see one of the butlers moving toward the back of the bin when I opened the door this morning.

[ConcinusMan]

No biggie. They still move. Just very slowly is all. I don't usually keep mine in darkness either, when I brumate in the garage. There's still light coming in the window. Doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2013/enclosures/ih8aspen.jpg

Asspen. Guess in which end the water bowl was.

[guidofatherof5]

Black mold? Not good.

[ConcinusMan]

Aspen always does that to me really fast if it stays wet and it only takes a few days. Cold only seems to slow it slightly. This is exactly the problem I was talking about long ago when I saw people were brumating their snakes on wet aspen. Then Stefan basically told me it doesn't seem to happen to everyone else. Well, what do you say now? This is the exact reason why I said wet aspen isn't a good idea. I just checked on my brumating snakes recently and around the dish where the aspen was wet, I had a fuzz garden growing and I just checked it 5 days ago and it was fine. I get that not all fungus growth is going to be harmful but if the harmless ones can grow, so can the harmful ones. . I don't think the above pic is "black mold". It's likely mildew but even that bugs the crap out of my respiratory system when it starts spewing spores in the air. ANY fugus spores have the potential to cause an immune response and irritate the respiratory system even if they aren't a particularly toxic species. I'd just rather not have any growing especially in a mostly enclosed environment like a plastic tub.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I used oak leaves no mold grew even though the container was kept damp for a few months.

[guidofatherof5]

I wonder if tannic acid would be a concern?

[Stefan-A]

This is exactly the problem I was talking about long ago when I saw people were brumating their snakes on wet aspen. Then Stefan basically told me it doesn't seem to happen to everyone else. Well, what do you say now?
That wasn't aspen and this wasn't wet. Come to think of it, this was set up pretty much according to your stated preferences.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I wonder if tannic acid would be a concern?I doubt it because people keep tadpoles in cups of oak leaf 'tea' and amphibians are far more sensitive to PH than reptiles are

[ConcinusMan]

...this wasn't wet.

Perhaps not at present but aspen only does that when it gets wet and if that's the side the water dish was on then it obviously got wet at some point.


Come to think of it, this was set up pretty much according to your stated preferences.

Yes, and I said this was preferred by me over brumating in a container where all the substrate is all wet. Still prefer this. The whole point being they aren't forced to sit on wet substrate. They still have the choice to sit in a water dish and inevetably that side gets wet. Sometimes the snakes will prefer to burrow into the wet substrate especially northwesterns so I let them. But I monitor this setup and make sure most of it is dry, and replace the wet stuff if it molds and it always does.

[Stefan-A]

if it molds and it always does
Which is what I've been saying for years. Aspen is garbage.

[ConcinusMan]

Which is what I've been saying for years. Aspen is garbage.

It's fine as a dry substrate. I don't have any problems with it under normal everyday use as long as it doesn't stay wet for days. In the normal housing enclosures with a basking lamp I get it wet sometimes to increase humidity or the snakes will occasionally get it wet but as long as it dries out in a timely manner (and it does in their regular housing w/heating) it doesn't mold. If you're wanting a wet area or wet brumation substrate then yes obviously there's better choices.