Hybrids and Intergrades

[Greg'sGarters]

Through my discussions with various garter snake breeders, I have heard some thoughts about hybrids and intergrades. What are your thoughts on hybrids and intergrades? Why?

[paulh]

I value the unique aspects of each species/subspecies. Making crosses starts down the slippery slope towards loss of some of those unique aspects. Some people have no trouble with hybrids as long as they are labeled. I have confidence that sooner or later the label will get lost and man-made hybrids and intergrades will enter the captive breeding population. Just say no to man-made hybrids and intergrades.

[guidofatherof5]

It should never happen in a captive situation. I know they have happened by accident but to purposely breed hybrids is WRONG.
Nature is one thing but this is another.
To try to create something from the already abundant varieties is unethical in my opinion.
You end up with mutts of no value and they ruin the gene pool.

[RedSidedSPR]

It's not cool.

[Greg'sGarters]

I also breed Rat Snakes and I find this very interesting. With Rat Snakes, hybridizing is very popular with species and subspecies. I, myself, have a breeder who is 1/2 Texas Rat Snake and 1/2 Everglades Rat Snake. She is being bred with an albino Yellow Rat Snake. Bubblegum Rat Snakes, for example, are some of the biggest mutts in the snake world, yet they are still a fairly popular variety. I have never met a Rat Snake breeder who was opposed to hybridizing, yet I have never met a Garter Snake breeder who was fine with hybridizing...interesting.

[guidofatherof5]

What's popular is always right and what's right isn't always popular.

[Greg'sGarters]

That's a cool quote!!! An example of that-venomoid snakes.

[Ctah_Lu]

I think that the hibrids sometimes look nice, but it isnt good for the animal because hibridizing can bring genetic damage, no matter what kind of snake is.

[Greg'sGarters]

I think that the hibrids sometimes look nice, but it isnt good for the animal because hibridizing can bring genetic damage, no matter what kind of snake is.

What do you think about intergrades? Or hybridizing of subspecies?

[gregmonsta]

I value the unique aspects of each species/subspecies. Making crosses starts down the slippery slope towards loss of some of those unique aspects. Some people have no trouble with hybrids as long as they are labeled. I have confidence that sooner or later the label will get lost and man-made hybrids and intergrades will enter the captive breeding population. Just say no to man-made hybrids and intergrades.

This ^^ .... especially the point about people not labelling things correctly further down the line!!! ... Garters have an amazing variety - 50+ species/subspecies not counting morphs or regional variations .... what do you hope to achieve? You're only going to make something that looks like something that already exists. This = waste of time and potential damage to captive bloodlines.

[gregmonsta]

What do you think about intergrades? Or hybridizing of subspecies?

Integrades occur in the wild (in captivity it = hybrid), collect a wild integrade? Fair enough ... I wouldn't breed it though. Hybridising of subspecies is exactly the same as my earlier response - full of issues (labelling/doesn't look like anything new/etc) and pointless. :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Let's get the terminology straight first. "Intergrades" are not the product of crossing subspecies. Intergrades are individuals that exemplify a phenomenon within population ecology, called intergradation, where two subspecies are separated by a population with characteristics from both. What you get when you cross subspecies or species (or genera for that matter), is hybrids. Both in the wild and in captivity. The only "big" difference between subspecies and species, is that subspecies have diverged later, but they've still diverged.

I know this hobby uses the term "intergrade" for subspecies crosses, but quite frankly, this hobby is to a high degree comprised of people who are short-sighted, narcissistic and unscrupulous and who use whatever euphemism they can to make it seem like what they're doing deliberately isn't as bad as it actually is, consciously or unconsciously. And I do hope I've just mortally offended many of them.

Now, in regards to hybrids, I see no valid excuse for producing them and they only cause trouble for people down the road. Worse yet, they have the potential to spread to wild populations, they may have developmental defects and they may make a population susceptible to diseases that it was not susceptible to before (incidentally, that's one reason why translocating animals to new populations is frowned upon as highly irresponsible these days). Above all, people don't want them muddying the waters and being passed off as something they're not. Personally, I don't want man-made hybrids out there in captivity or in the wild contaminating the gene pool and if I had my way, each and every one of them would be euthanized or sterilized, and that includes everything from Felis silvestris x Prionailurus bengalensis to Canis lupus lupus x C. l. familiaris to Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis x T. s. parietalis to Populus tremula x P. tremuloides.

[gregmonsta]

Let's get the terminology straight first. "Intergrades" are not the product of crossing subspecies. Intergrades are individuals that exemplify a phenomenon within population ecology, called intergradation, where two subspecies are separated by a population with characteristics from both.

Cheers for the correction ;)

[Stefan-A]

Cheers for the correction ;)
Started writing that reply when there were no responses yet, so it doesn't really count as a correction. ;)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

It's not a good thing.End of. It's done for the breeders benefit and not the snakes.

While where on the subject of hybrids(not snakes but still interesting)
I was watching a programme about on the BBC where they examine behavior and adaptions of other hominids (Homo neanderthalensis,Homo erectus and Autralopithecus afarensis).They examined evidence that Europeans share on average 2% DNA with Neanderthals due to interbreeding.So that make some of us hybrids LOl

[Greg'sGarters]

I think that instead of killing hybrids or sterilizing them, they should only be used for feeder snakes. You can gas them (to kill them without being inhumane) and then freeze the babies and sell them as feeder snakes. I'm not encouraging anyone to do this purposely, I'm just saying if 2 accidentally hybridize, please do what is right and don't let it murky up the water for the rest of the population.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not a good thing.End of. It's done for the breeders benefit and not the snakes.

While where on the subject of hybrids(not snakes but still interesting)
I was watching a programme about on the BBC where they examine behavior and adaptions of other hominids (Homo neanderthalensis,Homo erectus and Autralopithecus afarensis).They examined evidence that Europeans share on average 2% DNA with Neanderthals due to interbreeding.So that make some of us hybrids LOl

Google (sans quotes) "tangled roots". (science news article) I think you'll find it's more complicated than you think.