Hello from South Africa!

[@ndy]

Hi There

My name is @ndy and i a from South Africa and I live in a small town in the North West province called Potchefstroom!

I am crazy about snakes and i have 2 Checkered Garters (Thamnophis Marcianus) My female is 2 years old now and i bought a mate for her hopeful that its a male.

I would love to keep more species of Garters but here in SA we don't realy have anything other than Checkered Garters available.

I joined the forum to learn more about my Garters and to see what other garters are out there !

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard.

[chris-uk]

Welcome aboard.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to have you with us.
Here's a link to the forum care sheet which is always a good read.
We would love to help you sex you possible male if you would like. Here's a link to a thread that will help you do it yourself or at least show you the kind of photos to post so we can have a go at it.
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/medium/welcome.jpg

[mikem]

Welcome to the forum!

[indigoman]

Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you on board.

[Invisible Snake]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

[-MARWOLAETH-]

:)Welcome to the Thamily:)

[Rober10169]

Welcome, from Canada

[ProXimuS]

Hello and welcome:)

[thamneil]

Welcome from a cloudy Manitoba!

[SilasBannook]

Outstanding! South Africa. It is excellent to have you on board. Do check out the care sheet and look at the Husbandry section of the forum for tips. It will be great to see pictures of the snakes you have. You will love the resource this forum provides.

[@ndy]

Hello everyone!

And thank you for the welcome! This is the first forum where I received such a warm welcome! It makes me feel at home here!

Thanks for posting the Care sheet link is the most detailed care sheet I have seen so far on the web and it will replace my current sheet!

As for the sexing,I had a look and I have tried to identify the sex but I am not sure at all, it will be of great help if you guys and gals could help me with the sexing, I will take the photos and post it up.

As for photos of my female they will be uploaded a bit later today.

[guidofatherof5]

You are now part of a community that cares for the best snakes on the planet. Garters are the most interactive/social and inquisitive snakes out there.
Each possessing it's own personality. They are the best kept secret in the snake/reptile hobby.
We are a small worldwide bunch of garter nuts and that's a good thing.:D

[infernalis]

http://www.thamfriends.com/mat.jpg

[snake man]

Welcome.

[ConcinusMan]

Welcome! Wow, what is it about checkered garters? They've made it all the way to South Africa? :eek:

[@ndy]

We have had checkered and Florida Blue garters in SA for a couple of years, I know there are a couple of Checkered breeders around, I am trying to trace the breeder of the Florida Blue garters but no luck yet, I think the person immigrated over seas and sold his collection to an unknown person.

I have however found a breeder in SA of Red sided garters (Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis) although I have been warned that this person have Hybridized checkered and red sided garters. Really want a pure pair of red side's but how can I trust this Person knowing that he hybridized a pair, whats to say I don't get hybrids from him.

I found this on another forum where the breeder I found posted this

7228

[chris-uk]

I was going to ask if you're certain that the breeder produced hybrids, but it sounds like he posted the photo himself showing the hybrid? I wouldn't want any hybrids either and wouldn't rely on anyone who had knowingly produced them. On the other hand, if the parietalis and marcianus hybridised by accident, and if he's been open about it and hasn't sold them on as anything other than hybrids, and if he doesn't intend to produce more, and if you believe that he won't produce another hybrid litter... (lots of "ifs" there) then this breeder may be one of the few options you have in SA.
If it's practical and economical I'd suggest importing from Europe where you have a good choice from respected breeders.

[@ndy]

I was going to ask if you're certain that the breeder produced hybrids, but it sounds like he posted the photo himself showing the hybrid? I wouldn't want any hybrids either and wouldn't rely on anyone who had knowingly produced them. On the other hand, if the parietalis and marcianus hybridised by accident, and if he's been open about it and hasn't sold them on as anything other than hybrids, and if he doesn't intend to produce more, and if you believe that he won't produce another hybrid litter... (lots of "ifs" there) then this breeder may be one of the few options you have in SA.
If it's practical and economical I'd suggest importing from Europe where you have a good choice from respected breeders.

Yes to many if's for me and these were done on purpose

Below i quote the users post from the other forum

"Hi everyone,

Used to be on SA Reptiles about a year ago but since moved and got a new job etc...
so I have no idea what my username never mind my password was, anyway.

I currently have around 10 garter snakes, exotic ones and they are as follow:
1.2 Thamnphis sirtalis parietalis
above all are adults both females gravid.

1.3 Thamnophis marcianus marcianus
1.1 juveniles - should breed next season; 0.1 adult; 0.1 albino about 15-18 months of age copulated with red sided male last night

1.1 hybrids of the above - should bred next season.

Now my question is what are your thoughts around the above ideas.
what do you think can I expect from the checkered albino female x red sided male, the dominant genes are T. m. marcianus but while the albino genes carry over as well or not really, it is all speculation at this point, international sites frown upon this idea.

But I feel due to the lack of variance Thamnophis species available in this country of ours I personally feel no harm.

This is up for discussion to anyone with any feelings towards this as long as it is kept within reason.
Hope the mods approve this post thank you."

I have been looking into importing from Europe, I have never Imported a snake before, i hav a friend that imports pythons from somewhere, will find out whats involved in importing.

[guidofatherof5]

There is no valid reason to create hybrids. NONE.
The other forum post you quoted is very disturbing.

[@ndy]

There is no valid reason to create hybrids. NONE.
The other forum post you quoted is very disturbing.

Steve I agree 100%

I would rather import pure breeds from Europe than support the local guy that tries to sell a hybrid and now he is even going further by breeding the hybrids together.

We already have so little species available here why go and mess it up by creating hybrids.

[chris-uk]

Steve I agree 100%

I would rather import pure breeds from Europe than support the local guy that tries to sell a hybrid and now he is even going further by breeding the hybrids together.

We already have so little species available here why go and mess it up by creating hybrids.

This guy is messing up some of the few breeding pairs of garters in SA - and there's no reason for it, he's got male and female of each. I'd have given him the benefit of the doubt if he'd ended up with accidental hybrids because he'd thought that he was keeping different species of the same sex together and it turned out he'd got the sexing wrong. But there's no reason to do what he says in that post.

[guidofatherof5]

My words for him on that forum would probably get me banned from it. Probably good I'm not a member or even know which forum he's on.

[ConcinusMan]

""But I feel due to the lack of variance Thamnophis species available in this country of ours I personally feel no harm."

To the contrary, the "lack of variance" and the fact that not many garters are available is the very reason why he shouldn't be making hybrids.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

The stupidity!....
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9IyPe1383nDBR7CL-SGKrdXiTpaQNzzrgXZgt_DShkyIIeNjS

[Invisible Snake]

Hey @ndy, because of the rarity of garters in SA, are they expensive?

[ConcinusMan]

I would think that rarity by itself does not imply value. High demand and low supply combined is what makes a commodity valuable.

[@ndy]

Hey @ndy, because of the rarity of garters in SA, are they expensive?
I don't know how they compare to Corns and Kings in the rest of the world, but they are a bit more expensive here than some Kings and most Corns.

On average a Normal Baby T. marcianus sells for anything between $25 and $65, Albino's are very rare here the sell for $100 here in SA.

I only know of 5 other People here in SA that keep and Breed Checkered Garters only 2 have Albino's

We are trying to make the younger keepers more aware of Garters here, every store sells them Corns and Kings, I personally keep Kings as well but I enjoy my garters more than the Kings. I just wish we had more species of Garters available, I have 5 more baby checkered garters on order for mid November, and 1 will be an albino.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow. Albino checkereds are practically free here. Perhaps $30 USD at the most. I think it was last year, so many were produced that people had a hard time selling them even at $20.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Same here.Normals seem rarer than albinos garters

[@ndy]

Wow. Albino checkereds are practically free here. Perhaps $30 USD at the most. I think it was last year, so many were produced that people had a hard time selling them even at $20.

Man if we were so lucky, Wish I was there, I would have bought a few, I have been trying for 2 years to get my hands on Albino's but we only have 2 keepers that have Albino's. This year I am lucky my Friend Graeme Lotter is breeding normals and Albino's this year and I have already placed my order.

[ConcinusMan]

Inbreeding is a huge problem around here if you're seeking albinos. Too many of them are related and most, if not all lines of them have symptoms of inbreeding depression.

[@ndy]

Inbreeding is a huge problem around here if you're seeking albinos. Too many of them are related and most, if not all lines of them have symptoms of inbreeding depression.

I know, the Breeder that I buy my snakes from is against inbreeding and he only breeds unrelated stock, even my 2 Females 1 normal and 1 100% Het albino that I have comes from 2 different male / female pairs, and his Albino Male is CB2010 male from a European breeder and the female comes from another local breeder she is CB2009 if i remember correctly, this is the first year that he will be breeding albinos since the male is only ready this year and it looks like the pairing was a success.

My het 100% Het Albino female is from a Different Male that was on a breeding loan.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't really matter where you get them anymore. They're all related. So unless you're a breeder who is taking the time to outcross albinos/het albinos with freshly WC normals, for several generations, (which would mean years of producing normal looking snakes that nobody wants) you're not going to be able to "undo" what has been done with inbreeding for the albino gene.

[@ndy]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't really matter where you get them anymore. They're all related. So unless you're a breeder who is taking the time to outcross albinos/het albinos with freshly WC normals, for several generations, (which would mean years of producing normal looking snakes that nobody wants) you're not going to be able to "undo" what has been done with inbreeding for the albino gene.

Aaaah ok now i understand what you mean, i didn't know they are all related. was there a WC albino found, anyone know?

[ConcinusMan]

Aaaah ok now i understand what you mean, i didn't know they are all related. was there a WC albino found, anyone know?

Well of course. And every dang albino or het albino out there is descended from one or a very few original ones. Think about it this way. Somebody imports a couple of albinos to your country. They have offspring which are then sold to various people. They then begin breeding them and selling them to other people. Then you guys get a couple from two different people and assume they aren't related, but they are.

The only way to prevent inbreeding depression in a situation like this, is if more people are outcrossing the albinos/het albinos with WC snakes but that would mean years of breeding without producing albinos. Just outcrossed hets. Nobody wants to do that. They want to produce albinos right away and the only way to to that is to inbreed. So the next person buys two siblings and does what? You guessed it. They breed them to each other. Then the next person gets those babies and does the same thing, and so on...