New Ordinoides Photos

[KephrenJorgensen]

I had a friend bring over his camera after the one I borrowed from school turned out to suck. The pictures are pretty nice I can actually tell the difference between the babies now. Anywho, here they are.70817082708370847085

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice. The most underrated and under kept Thamnophis species. I'm hope to have a nice breeding program in place over the next few years.

[KephrenJorgensen]

. The babies with the most visible patterns are the ones that eat the most. I am going to brumate the non eaters soon. The mom and her other 708670877088708970903 babes

[katach]

Gorgeous! I love NW. They are so wonderful!

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like the snake in the last photo might have a lip infection or am I off base?

[RedSidedSPR]

Yeah it does...

But those are SWEET love the black

[ProXimuS]

OOO Very pretty! I do see the swollen looking area on her top left lip also.

[Lisa4john]

Thank you for sharing. They are very nice looking sweeties. :D

[KephrenJorgensen]

At first I thought it was her scale being out of place from a fish tail, so I just cut her food up way smaller. If it is a swollen lip what might I do about it?

[guidofatherof5]

Can you post a photo of the lip are?
First identify it is swollen. Sometimes retained lip scales will make them look that way.
Here is a photo of my girl Lucky. If you look at her upper lip you can see the slight swollen area.
Treatment from my vet. consisted of poking the lip area with a sterile needle. According to him it releases the infection by causing it to bleed.
It worked great and she only had a small scar from the procedure.
I use the same practice on the Ranch. I use a needle on a diabetic syringe. They are cheap and work great.
The second photo shows the lip still out but that is from the scar tissue.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//628/medium/lucky3.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//628/medium/lucky2.jpg

[KephrenJorgensen]

I think she may have recieved an injury from eating, I will try the needle practice as you have mentioned, but not before I post a clear photo of the "injury". I also think it could be a swelling in the Duvernoy's gland.

[guidofatherof5]

If it is swelling in the Duvernoy's gland I would have to ask why.
Does this snake live and feed with others?
If so, it might be a bite injury from a food fight.
Looking forward to seeing some photos.

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/7090d1350264604-new-ordinoides-photos-p1050319.jpg

That snake is melanistic. Not super dark but melanistic anyway. Note how dark the eyes are. Normally a NW will have fairly bright eyes of red, gold, yellow, etc. Love the "vanishing stripe" ones. I think it's quite possible that some of the babies are melanistic too and will likely darken up as they grow.



OOO Very pretty! I do see the swollen looking area on her top left lip also.

I see it on both sides. If it's infected, the snake could be in trouble. However, I've found them quite often like that seeming to be an old injury and not really bothering them. Is that one eating OK? It is possible it's from bite injuries/food fight but not necessarily.

Can you use that camera again? or another decent one? I would like to see photos of the melanistic one I showed above, taken in natural day light, no flash. Or if you did do that, more photos please. I might be willing to trade or make some kind of deal for a melanistic like that. Possibly one or two of the babies.

[Invisible Snake]

I might be willing to trade or make some kind of deal for a melanistic like that. Possibly one or two of the babies.

I was thinking the same thing, but the OP is from Canada.

[ConcinusMan]

oh yeah. :rolleyes: Seems like every time I find them online, they are B.C. snakes. Vancouver Island in particular is well-known for it's melanistic populations. And B.C. authorities don't take too kindly to selling / exporting wildlife.

Two projects I'd like to do, but I don't think it's going to happen, is to combine erythristic and albino, and melanistic and albino. I just can't seem to get my hands on either of the latter two, or even hets.

[ConcinusMan]

Is this your youtube channel? I can't figure out why I would be blocked from commenting. It has to be a mistake. The only comments I've ever made on that channel do not seem to be a problem. I mean, not rude and well received. Hmmm...

WildAboutTheIsland's channel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/WildAboutTheIsland)

[KephrenJorgensen]

no this is not my youtube channel. ConcinnusMan, message me about the babies. I am very happy to have a melanistic NW. My friends kept telling me the were seeing all black snakes and I didnt believe them until my maturity surpassed my age. I believe that the population of Vancouver Island melanistics may be evidence of inudstrial melanism via the huge coal industry that was Van Isle.

[KephrenJorgensen]

Living on Vancouver island is a curse and a privilege. The only snake species on the island (as far as the government is concerned) are T. ordinoides, T. e. vagrans, and the debated over or both T. sirtalis or T. s. pickeringii. Also, the Sharp-tailed snake has an endangered population on the south east side of the island, best known in the Cowichan area. A friend has claimed the presence of Rubber Boas and Pacific Rattlesnake, and I am currently waiting on a season change to go out and prove/disprove this claim. Does anyone have an idea of what might happen if I did prove their presence on V.I.? What would the government do?

[ConcinusMan]

I believe that the population of Vancouver Island melanistics may be evidence of inudstrial melanism via the huge coal industry that was Van Isle.

You must be joking. No, that's not it. Melanism is actually not extremely rare and can occur in almost any population of northwesterns. It's recessive gene causing over production of melanin, the natural dark skin pigments found in most snakes. It not only effects the skin, but the eyes too. The island is, well, an island. They are genetically isolated. Without a lot of opportunity to outcross with unrelated snakes lacking the gene this caused most of the snakes there to either carry the recessive gene, or end up melanistic themselves. Think about it. If snakes are albino and can only mate with other albinos or het albinos, what's going to happen? You're going to have a lot of albinos. Melansim (the opposite condition) still works the same way. It's a recessive gene.


Living on Vancouver island is a curse and a privilege. The only snake species on the island (as far as the government is concerned) are T. ordinoides, T. e. vagrans, and the debated over or both T. sirtalis or T. s. pickeringii. Also, the Sharp-tailed snake has an endangered population on the south east side of the island, best known in the Cowichan area. A friend has claimed the presence of Rubber Boas and Pacific Rattlesnake, and I am currently waiting on a season change to go out and prove/disprove this claim. Does anyone have an idea of what might happen if I did prove their presence on V.I.? What would the government do?

Umm... T.s. pickeringii is on the island as far as I knew. And that is a T. sirtalis so I don't know what the debate is about. I had heard that there are rubber boas there too, which wouldn't be surprising at all. I think that's already been confirmed. I guess the question is whether or not they are still there. If you proved it, why would the govt. do anything? It's of no consequence. They don't give a damn.

I don't know why I would need to messege you about the babies. You're in Canada and that's that. Unless you plan on driving to the other Vancouver, in Washington State, USA with them, I can't get my hands on them. They're hardly worth that much to make it worth your while, and they're completely worthless in Canada. In fact, it's illegal to collect or keep them, let alone sell them.

[KephrenJorgensen]

I had not thought of the isolation factor regarding the melanism, though it should have been pretty obvious. The debate over the sirtalis/sirtalis pickeringii is only a debate because it is unclear whether pickeringii is the only sirtalis on the island. I had asked you to message me because I was going to go through all that trouble because you arent the only person who is interested in these babies and it would be worthwhile for me. I am aware of the legalities of such and am currently in the process if obtaining permission to keep such species in captivity for educational purposes. I would love to see a rubber boa on the island, I will definitely be out looking to see if they are still here. And I think the government would give a damn if I told them/proved to them they had Rattlesnakes to deal with. That is something of consequence.

[ConcinusMan]

I've never heard anything about northern pacific rattlers being present on the big Island. Seems like the wrong climate. However, they are in B.C. in a much drier climate. Just like eastern WA, except north of the U.S. border with WA State. Within their range in B.C. are the cities of Kamloops and Kelowna. I highly doubt they are on Vancouver Island. Northern pacific rattlers are generally a reclusive, non-aggressive snake. Injurous bites, or bites that actually inject venom, are rare. If and when they do bite, it's usually a "dry" bite, followed by a hasty retreat. They really are no threat to people who refrain from molesting or harassing them.

I did find this info about T. sirtalis' in B.C.

"Three subspecies of the Common Garter Snake are found in British Columbia. The Puget Sound Garter Snake (T. s. pickeringi) is found on Vancouver Island and in the lower mainland. The Valley Garter Snake (T. s. fitchi) is found across most of southern B.C. and along the northern coast almost to the Yukon. Finally, the Red-sided Garter Snake (T. s. parietalis) occurs in eastern B.C. towards the prairie provinces."

I think that the only T. sirtalis you're going to find on the Island is T. s. pickeringii. Maybe there's a debate because many puget sound garters (pickeringii) look very much like T. s. fitchi or even T. s. concinnus.

[Lisa4john]

I can see that debate. They look very similar sometimes.

[ConcinusMan]

I can see that debate. They look very similar sometimes.

Again, I'll say that any T. sirtalis found on the island is T. s. pickeringii. I have seen conflicting subspecies maps. I think this mostly due to mistaken I.D.

Like I said, if you didn't know any better you would swear that some pickeringii are fitchii, concinnus, or intergrades. Snakes like that are found just about anywhere that pickeringii occur. But rest assured, they are just natural variations of pickeringii.

[KephrenJorgensen]

It does make sense that the pickeringii have such a wide variety of appearances in the wild. All the sirtalis Ive seen on the island are black with three yellow stripes, and the orange spots like a concinnus would have. I barely see any blue ones in the wild, and the ones that dont have the orange are even more uncommon. I thought they were ribbon snakes for the longest time. I highly doubt the presence of a rattlesnake population, though I do see the possibility. Some areas hold high potential to support the species, particularly the Nanaimo Lakes area, as well as Lake Cowichan

[ConcinusMan]

Blue pickeringii are only found in s small part of their range at the south end of Puget Sound. Olympia/Lacey/Dupont/Fort Lewis/Lakewood. Same goes for the blue anery morph concinnus'. Limited range. Ones like you describe can be found almost anywhere pickeringii occur.