Should I brumate my snake or not?

[Brittany26]

Hello again.
I have a six year old garter snake and for the past 6 winters I'm always confused weather to let my snake hibernate or not. I usually do not feed him during winter. For the past 9 months or so Steavy the snake makes sqeaking farting noises trough his mouth. I thought he had a respitory infection but I think he would have died by now so maybe it's just old age. For respitory problems as far as breathing, temperatures should be high and humid. Well if I decide to brumate him, there's a chance his sickness or breathing problem will worsen. Also, in the winter time my house will only be about 68 degrees F upstairs and about 63-66 degrees down stairs. I would turn his heat lamp and pad off during this time, but even then will it be too warm? I also don't know when to stop feeding him, when to turn off his heat, when to start the hibernation, and finally when to end the brumation. Every winter I feel like I'm doing something wrong. I don't want to lose him to some silly hibernation thing. I'm just confused what the right/best thing to do is.
Thanks for reading

[Stefan-A]

Get him to a vet.

[guidofatherof5]

Not feeding and not brumating could starve a snake. 3-4 months without food and not being at brumation temps will cause problems. Their metabolism is still going to be high causing the snake to use muscle stores rather then fat stores for energy. Temps in the 60's are not brumation temps.
You are better off to continue feeding in a normal way right through the Winter. What is a normal feed schedule?
Just my opinion.

Any possible respiratory issues should be seen by a Vet.

[Brittany26]

The thing is I took him to a vet last January because of his clicking noise and the noises he would make at night. I took him in and she heard Steavy clicking and said "Yep he has a respitory infection" And prescribed me to give him a dose of Baytril orally for 2 weeks. It did nothing, so there is nothing else I can do.
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Sorry for my bad spelling, hard to type on an ipod.
Okay, The first winter I had Steavy, I got freaked out because he stopped eating/refused to eat his fish when it got to fall/winter.( I thought he was going to die) So he pretty much forced me to brumate him, even with his lamp and heating pad on. So ever since then I've just stopped feeding him near the end of November and turn his lamps off, then feed him again in late February early March. He seems to do fine I guess. It gets pretty darn cold in my house. If I were to brumate him, I'd keep him in the basement where it's freezing (even though it's only in the 60's..) But feels much colder. Also, Steavy is a checkered garter snake, and they generally live in the South (Arizona, Texas, ect) Southern species don't need it to be freezing cold in order to hibernate as much as Northern species (If I remember correctly.) I'm worried because for the past 5 or 6 winters, I've made him hibernate. If all of a sudden I don't hibernate him this year won't he be confused? I get him out 2-3 times a day for about 10-15 minutes each time, he will feel how cold it is out of the warmth of his cage in the cold house. Won't he feel confused about the temperature difference? If I don't hibernate him, should I just leave his lamp on all day? Snakes also know when to hibernate when it starts getting dark early, so I suppose I should leave the lights on until about 9am when it gets dark in the summer? I'm just really confused just as much as my snake haha. I'm sorry for asking so many questions.

[guidofatherof5]

I have found clicking noises to be the opening and closing of the glottis. Normal to hear it sometimes.
Baytril would have no effect on that. If it's the same noise then a Vet. trip is probably unnecessary.
If there is something new then I would suggest a visit. Does your Vet. work with reptiles very often?

[Brittany26]

I have found clicking noises to be the opening and closing of the glottis. Normal to hear it sometimes.
Baytril would have no effect on that. If it's the same noise then a Vet. trip is probably unnecessary.
If there is something new then I would suggest a visit. Does your Vet. work with reptiles very often?
Yes, I didn't bring him to the vet mainly because of the clicking, mostly because of the alarming noise that he makes at night. I've heard snakes weezing because of respiratory problems, but what my snake is doing is not weezing. I don't know what it would be classified under. He simple puffs up his body, opens his mouth, lets out air that makes a kinda farting sound, that of which you'd get when you squeeze your tongue to the roof of your mouth to make a wet juicy noise. I have no clue how to explain. I'd try to keep a clip of him doing it but it's random. Sometimes he won't make the noise for days, sometimes he'll do it once a night or 3 times a night. Really hard to catch. The vet also told me that Steavy was too small to inject baytril with a needle. I read online that oral baytril does little to nothing. So much for that. I also do not want to put him back through the stress of opening his mouth and squirting in Baytril through the mouth. And, I'm not sure if my Vet is very skilled with reptiles. By the why she held him and gracefully and fed him Baytril made it look easy. She was listed under a Herp vet so I would say she knows what she's doing.

[guidofatherof5]

It certainly doesn't sound normal and I would be concerned also. Other then that is Steavy acting and doing normal garter things?
What are you feeding and how often? What kind of substrate are you using? What temp. of the warm side?
Sorry for all the questions.

[Brittany26]

It certainly doesn't sound normal and I would be concerned also. Other then that is Steavy acting and doing normal garter things?
What are you feeding and how often? What kind of substrate are you using? What temp. of the warm side?
Sorry for all the questions.
It's weird because he acts completely normal but still makes that noise. He sheds about once every month and a half and is also very hungry. He eats a pinky about every 7-12 days and I get him 10 rosy reds every month as a treat. I get him out of his cage twice a day and he is very active and moves around fast. I am currently using paper towels but am switching over to aspen for the winter so he can burrow. I usually don't let his cage get over 90 and it fluctuates between 80-89 on the warm side and the cool side is probably in the low 80's MAYBE high 70's. He goes in his pool a lot if he gets warm. In the summer I never put on his lamp, if I did, temperatures would get up to 100 degrees F in like 10 minutes. But now that it's fall it's cold outside so with the heat lamp on today, the warm side only got up to 80-83. I only have 1 thermometer near the warm side/in the middle of the cage, so it's hard to know the exact temperatures of the whole cage. And no problem about the questions haha.

[guidofatherof5]

I would cut out the Rosy's and switch to a more safe fish. Guppies or even fresh tilapia.
Rosy's contain thiaminase which can create neurological issues and death.
Here's a link to the care sheet which goes into more detail about that.
How long as this issue been occurring?
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

[ConcinusMan]

Severe respiratory infection is what you have. I'm afraid that months is too long to go without treatment and correction of the poor environmental conditions that caused it. The snake is probably too far gone but needs a vet / antibiotics and proper temps/humidity ASAP or it will die in my opinion. The length of time he's been sick doesn't matter. RI's don't go away and without antibiotics and proper care, pronto, death by RI is inevitble. Just a matter of time.

As to the question, if you have to ask, then no, don't brumate. I tell that to everyone. If there was a good reason to brumate, you would know what it is, and therefore not need to ask the question. "should I...."

[Brittany26]

Okay, He is too small to be properly injected with antibiotics because of his size. I've read that oral medication won't do anything. If I take him to the vet it will be oral and nothing will help him. I'm only 14 with only 20 dollars to spare. Vet bills would be well over 50. I paid for his last trip but I can't afford this trip. In my opinion he is doing okay. Until the day he stops eating or stops beig active then I will need to worry more. I have decided to not brumate him based on your help. The temp in his cage is 84 degrees F with his lamp on with a humidity level of 41 (which changes often) Is the temperature in his cage fine? If I need to raise it how would I, since my lamp has been constantly on all day I can't make the temp go any higher. At night time last night his cage with the lamp off was about 68-70 For not brumating him is that temp too low? Keep in mind it's only fall and the temperatures here will get colder. Should I get a night time light for him that is nocturnal to raise temps at night? I will stop feeding him rosy reds and stick to pinkys once a week. Every time I get him out in the winter I will make sure I warmed the desired room up with a heater to make sure he's warm and doesn't get tempted to brumate. I will also make sure to turn his lights of at 8:00-9:00 even though it will get dark at 4:30 in the winter. Another question, what if he stops eating in the fall/winter, signifying that he wants to brumate, do I just turn his temperatures down and let him proceed with brumating? Sorry for all the questions. I just don't want him to die. He's been with me in elementary school, all middle school, and hopefully he will stay with me these next 3 years of high school. I just want him to feel as comfortable as possible. Thank you for any tips, I appreciate it.

[Brittany26]

I would cut out the Rosy's and switch to a more safe fish. Guppies or even fresh tilapia.
Rosy's contain thiaminase which can create neurological issues and death.
Here's a link to the care sheet which goes into more detail about that.
How long as this issue been occurring?
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

I will ask for guppies at the pet store from now on. Is tilapia sold at grocery stores?
Also, this noise he makes started early 2012 (Janurary) and took him to the vet in February.

[ConcinusMan]

Okay, He is too small to be properly injected with antibiotics because of his size. I've read that oral medication won't do anything.

Injection isn't necessary and can cause problems even in the largest of snakes. Oral works just fine. Oral Baytril suspension(0.4 mL daily) saved Big Bertha's life. (nearly 4ft concinnus)

However, there's no way I could afford it either. The vet bill or the meds. An "angel" stepped forward with the meds and Big Bertha is alive and well more than a year after a significant upper RI. All it took was oral antibiotics. No injections.

All my tilapia comes from grocery stores. The "fresh" unfrozen kind is just tilapia. If its frozen in a package, use caution and make sure the ingredients just say "tilapia fillet, water". No additives "to retain moisture". Any additives are likely to cause renal failure in reptiles.

The better part of a year seems like too long to have a RI. Instead of trying to save this snake I would seriously consider looking into the cause, and correcting that before getting another. Many RI's are caused by unclean conditions, excessive dampness, not enough ventilation, etc. but the #1 cause is....

Keeping your snake too warm (keeping the entire enclosure uniformly warm) and failure to provide a wide enough temperature gradient so the snake can regulate its own temperature. You can literally love your snake to death by keeping it warm all the time.

A place for the snake to bask at 85 is fine. but only if he can retreat to the other end at around 70 degrees.:cool: Constant uniform warmth stresses the immune system and will cause RI's from the most common of household bacteria. Once such an infection takes hold it is nearly always fatal (eventually) without antibiotics.

At the risk of sounding insensitive, if you can't afford it, don't try. Let it go, learn, move on, and try again with another snake.

[Brittany26]

Injection isn't necessary and can cause problems even in the largest of snakes. Oral works just fine. Oral Baytril suspension(0.4 mL daily) saved Big Bertha's life. (nearly 4ft concinnus)

However, there's no way I could afford it either. The vet bill or the meds. An "angel" stepped forward with the meds and Big Bertha is alive and well more than a year after a significant upper RI. All it took was oral antibiotics. No injections.

All my tilapia comes from grocery stores. The "fresh" unfrozen kind is just tilapia. If its frozen in a package, use caution and make sure the ingredients just say "tilapia fillet, water". No additives "to retain moisture". Any additives are likely to cause renal failure in reptiles. Thanks that was helpful. I just don't get it though. The vet prescribed 0.04 ml of baytril to give once a day, over a span of 2 weeks. It did nothing to help my snake that I could see. I also had a lot of trouble suspending the meds in his mouth. I always got some in but sometimes I felt like a little bit came out of the sides of his mouth. I also made him bleed once from opening his mouth which scared me. I feel like it gave him too much stress. If I were to give him more baytril, would it be alright to cover his pinky in it?

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks that was helpful. I just don't get it though. The vet prescribed 0.04 ml of baytril to give once a day, over a span of 2 weeks. It did nothing to help my snake that I could see. I also had a lot of trouble suspending the meds in his mouth. I always got some in but sometimes I felt like a little bit came out of the sides of his mouth. I also made him bleed once from opening his mouth which scared me. I feel like it gave him too much stress. If I were to give him more baytril, would it be alright to cover his pinky in it?


I know, it's not easy. You can try watering it down so it will go through a needle, then inject into a pinky. But if he won't eat it..:rolleyes:

Maybe I'm not the right guy to ask because to me it sounds like you should save yourself the trouble and say goodbye.

And BTW, the 0.4 mL was for a very large garter around 4 feet.. dose for a garter is usually much smaller.

[Brittany26]

I know, it's not easy. You can try watering it down so it will go through a needle, then inject into a pinky. But if he won't eat it..:rolleyes:

Maybe I'm not the right guy to ask because to me it sounds like you should save yourself the trouble and say goodbye.

And BTW, the 0.4 mL was for a very large garter around 4 feet.. dose for a garter is usually much smaller. Haha don't worry he will eat it. He can smell frozen pinkys through a sealed freezer bag and will bite the next thing that moves. I will start saving up money to take him to the vets again but my parents are pretty stubborn so I don't know how that will turn out. But if it didn't work last time how will it work this time. Also I used a .04 ml dosage, not .4 ml.