Please Identify

[katach]

Lisa found this little female. Not something I've seen here in Washington that I recognize. She was found in Port Orchard, Wa, Kitsap County



http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg811/scaled.php?server=811&filename=imag1632.jpg&res=landing
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg89/scaled.php?server=89&filename=imag1633.jpg&res=landing

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would say valley garter, but the face marking resemble the pugets I have.

[Light of Dae]

A hybrid of fitchi n eastern?

I don't know.

First thing that came to me.

[katach]

No easterns in this area, but we do have valley and puget. Could it be a wild occurring hybrid?

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet looking little scrub no matter what the I.D. is.

[RedSidedSPR]

Looks like a fitchi (valley) with strong markings to me. Either way it's AWESOME.

[CrazyHedgehog]

wow, georgous!

[Lisa4john]

Thanks guys! I'm so excited I found her. She is very relaxed and calm, fell asleep in my hand just after I got her, then my husband was holding her, and she just sat there watching Hardcastle and McCormack with him. :D I named her Lacy. No matter what she is, she is mine now, and I feel blessed. :)

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm confused.

[Lisa4john]

I'm confused.

What are you confused about?

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh. Nvm. I thought Kat had found the snake. Lol my bad

[Lisa4john]

Oh. Nvm. I thought Kat had found the snake. Lol my bad

Ahh... Nope, I found it and took it over to her house. We live very close to each other. It was fun. :)

[katach]

How is she doing? Did she eat?

[RedSidedSPR]

Ahh... Nope, I found it and took it over to her house. We live very close to each other. It was fun. :)

Gotcha. Never knew that. Cool

[Lisa4john]

How is she doing? Did she eat?

They have not eaten yet. We just got a home set up for them, next step... food, wish me luck. ;)

[katach]

Good luck. Hope your lovely ladies eat for you.

[ConcinusMan]

not a hybrid, not an intergrade. Just one of the natural variations you'll see in Puget Sound garter snakes. That sure is a high red example though. wow. And yeah, the facial markings give it away as a puget, along with locality


According to "reptiles of the northwest" there are no valley garters where you are Kat. What you are seeing are red pugets. They look a lot like Valley garters.

[katach]

Thanks Richard.

[Lisa4john]

Cool, thanks Richard. :) I'm glad I found her. Now to get food in her. :D

[ConcinusMan]

That could be a challenge. The snake will probably refuse, getting ready to brumate for the winter.

Heres another red puget from Lewis county:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/nqd1r5.jpg

[Lisa4john]

I'll just have to try, the other one has already eaten. I'll keep praying and trying...

[Lisa4john]

Nice looking snake, thanks for sharing. :) He looks almost like a concinnus, but not quite such bold spots... to my untrained eyes anyway. ;)

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

What a beautiful little baby!!! Hope it gets to eating for you :)

[Lisa4john]

Thanks, this is not one that has tried to eat yet. I got 3 that day actually, all pugets. One has already eaten 2 pieces of worm, one yesterday and one today, the one today was actually taken from the tongs, I was so excited. The other poor lil gal tried to eat a piece of worm tonight, but it was too big and she gagged it up again. :( Then she didn't want anything to do with any other pieces; she would have to take the biggest piece of the pie! Sigh, I hope that doesn't scare her from eating anything now. Only time will tell. As soon as I get my camera phone hooked up to the pc I'll get some pix up to show you my new babies. :)

[katach]

So glad they are settling in for you! They sure are pretty! What names did you guys settle on for the other two. The one with the dark belly was sure a sweet girl.

[Lisa4john]

The dark belly, thin stripe is Black Beauty, Beauty for short. And my son called the other one Samantha, cuz he was afraid we would have to release Sam and Turq. So with that I'm calling Sam, Sage now cuz of his belly color. I almost let them go yesterday but decided to try to brumate Sam (Sage) first to give him the most opportunity and so I know I did everything I could do for him before I give up on him.

[ConcinusMan]

Nice looking snake, thanks for sharing. :) He looks almost like a concinnus, but not quite such bold spots... to my untrained eyes anyway. ;)

Yes, very close. But the two subspecies are nearly identical on a genetic level so its not surprising. Some populations even share specific genes or genetic markers with populations of concinnus' many miles to the south. In short, at some point in the recent past, they were one. Nothing more than geographic morph variations of the same snake, now geographically separated and evolving separately.

[EasternGirl]

I thought concinnus when I first saw the pics too. She is lovely! Very nice find. :)

[Lisa4john]

I thought concinnus when I first saw the pics too. She is lovely! Very nice find. :)

Thanks! :) Yeah, me too, but I knew they were not usual for this area.

[ConcinusMan]

I thought concinnus when I first saw the pics too. She is lovely! Very nice find. :)

To the untrained eye I suppose. This is why I see so many snakes for sale, particularly infernalis, parietalis, concinnus, fitchi, or any other garter with red spots, being misidentified as one or the other when its not. Even worse, this leads to hybrids which are then sold as one of those snakes.

To clarify, red pugets have puget facial markings, darker black, and a different shade of orange. If I showed that snake side by side with a similar snake of a different subspecies, the differences would be quite obvious. Just like a laterally striped concinnus next to a fitchi. Yes, very similar but the colors are different as well as other visual clues.

Time and time again I see people calling red pugets, "valley garters" :cool:

[Lisa4john]

To the untrained eye I suppose. This is why I see so many snakes for sale, particularly infernalis, parietalis, concinnus, fitchi, or any other garter with red spots, being misidentified as one or the other when its not. Even worse, this leads to hybrids which are then sold as one of those snakes.

To clarify, red pugets have puget facial markings, darker black, and a different shade of orange. If I showed that snake side by side with a similar snake of a different subspecies, the differences would be quite obvious. Just like a laterally striped concinnus next to a fitchi. Yes, very similar but the colors are different as well as other visual clues.

Time and time again I see people calling red pugets, "valley garters" :cool:


Yeah, I could see that, I looked up some pictures and can definitely see how they could be confused. I'm just grateful to have her and that she ate already. I'm excited to watch her grow. :) Thanks for the info.

[ConcinusMan]

I know I already answered this but I found a video...


I would say valley garter, but the face marking resemble the pugets I have.

That's because it is a puget. Definitely can't always go by color. If you did, you would swear it was a T. s. fitchi. But the location makes that impossible. It is a puget. Almost all of them look like that around Vancouver, B.C. whereas in WA state we get a variety of different colors and patterns in that subspecies. Sometimes depends on location, while other locations have more variety. Like in Lewis county where I got many of mine this year, there's a wide variety. Red like that one, black with yellow stripes and yellow bars or spots, or without bars or spots. The one thing that remains constant in all of them, is those facial markings. They all have it. Here's another puget from Vancouver B.C. Seems like all of them around there are the red phase but take a look at the facial markings and you know it's a puget. (see 1:10 in the video) Occasionally concinnus' have similar markings but they're out of range to be mistaken for fitchi or pugets.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXJWsHkUJbs

Apparently, there is some confusion here in the video too. Looks like a Chinese (?) dude but he's in Canada, and talks like he's from Australia. Now I'm really confused. The snakes, I know. People are another matter. LOL.

[Lisa4john]

Thank you, Richard. It was kinda fun to listen to him talk too. I wonder how many garters fall under the "common garter snake" title... ;)