In Breeding

[CrazyHedgehog]

Just a question on the thoughts of in-breeding.
I have read several discussions on breeding between species, and realise that this just creates muddy snakes that no-one wants watering down the gene pool. OK, got that, have always agreed with this, they don't have the exciting mixing options like corn or king snakes.

But what about in breeding between the same species?
With so few garter keepers in the UK, many (if not all) the snakes we buy are likely to be from the same original gene pool, what if siblings end up as the same parents? is this as bad?

With mice, in-breeding is encouraged to some degree to strengthen traits and lines??
Big no no with garters, or just not the strongest option?

(do not worry, I am not planning on in-breeding, I have a year or so before I need to split up) but just wondered if it was as big a 'no-no' as mixing species/subspecies? I can carefully split my San franciscos up, try and get different partners for them etc, but in reality they are likely to be first cousins at least? the gene pool for these in the UK must be tiny?

[gregmonsta]

Your san frans are going to be a lot more closely related than that. The only viable option for these is to source them from as far afield as possible. The entire genepool in Europe was started with very few individuals -
San Francisco Garter Snake : Thamnophis.com (http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic3.htm)
Thamnophis.com: Article Site .19. (http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic12.htm)
Thamnophis.com: Article Site .1. (http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic20.htm)

At any rate - I would never sell 1.1 from a SanFran litter. I would sell 1.1 only if I had 2 pairs of adults from as many different sources as possible.

As far as the rest goes it depends on breeders supplying the right information and the buyers making their choice.
Personally I would not wish to take a bloodline beyond F3. I will (and have) advertise if I'm offering F1 and it's up to the buyer to decide if it is good enough for them. If I was selling F2 I would start to encourage the buyer sourcing new blood to compliment. If I was selling F3 I would refuse to sell 1.1 outright.

[guidofatherof5]

Good post Greg. Very well put.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Thanks, that makes sense, just worrying trying to try and get new blood lines for San Frans, in reality then the captive bred ones are on a timeline of thier own,
I bought some in Doncaster, tiny worms though and needing assisted feeding! won't be breeding for a couple of years...and have one from Hamm a few years ago, hoping to get a few more this year to mix them up..

But thankyou for the clear response Greg.

[Stefan-A]

With mice, in-breeding is encouraged to some degree to strengthen traits and lines??
In that case we are talking about selective breeding to maintain and strengthen certain properties that are largely irrelevant to the animal (coloration, fur type, even personality to some extent).

[Steveo]

I don't know how herp breeders do it, but in a past life I bred show fish and always outcrossed every third generation. The San Frans are a special case in that getting fresh, wild blood is impossible. The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

[chris-uk]

I don't know how herp breeders do it, but in a past life I bred show fish and always outcrossed every third generation. The San Frans are a special case in that getting fresh, wild blood is impossible. The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

I'm not convinced that communication is good enough that most breeders could confidently say "my lines are unrelated to Bob's lines for at least x generations". Unfortunately it would seem that even if the breeders provide paperwork with their babies, the paperwork tells you who the parents are but if you want to know more than that you'd need the breeder to go looking up more information in their records.
It is for that reason that my male San Francisco Garter will probably never breed. I got the San Fran because it was the first species both me and the wife said we wanted after we got the checkered girls, so when the opportunity arose I decided to buy one. However, after researching more about the European San Fran lines I'd quickly decided that I'd rather breed infernalis than tetrataenia, so I'm happy just to keep a tetrataenia for the term of its natural life and not even consider breeding it.

[gregmonsta]

The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

You would think so, there's still the element of (especially in Britain) of people going: "Ooooh, pretty!" and buying and breeding regardless of seller advice.

A lot of the problems with tetrataenia - shorter life-spans, failure to thrive, low fertility, low litter sizes, tendency towards small offspring, tumors, etc, come from early breeding at the zoos and with early hobbyists. This started the chain and a lot of these were at F? by the time they reached hobbyists.
I do want to keep and breed them some day. My plan is to source animals from each Britain, Holland, Germany and Switzerland or Austria. I would keep two strict bloodlines as a minimum. The EGSA has taken steps towards keeping studbooks and registers of known breeders. Work on a family tree was also established and published in one of the EGSA's quarterly publication.

Even when it comes to our other snakes - how do we know? Checkereds are the 'bread and butter'/'bulletproof' garter in Britain. We've already seen how breeding albinos can throw up neurological issues, failure to thrive, etc, possibly due to the propensity to offer 1.1 for generation after generation. Many new keepers will simply not be aware of these things and it's on a par with people breeding different species/sub-species together without knowing any better.

Lets face it - not all keepers are enthusiasts, and - even I have asked questions like whether I could cross-breed when I joined the forum, for eg.

As breeders we need to look at bringing fresh bloodlines into our collections as often as possible as well as exchanges of litters to allow the offering of unrelated animals where possible (i.e. we both have F1/2/3 litters, I'll swap my males with yours and we can offer unrelated offspring to our fellow hobbyists). The advice we give to buyers is also important (but it can still be ignored/forgotten).

But, I really think the most important thing is for the 'guys at the top', i.e. the 'bigger' breeders in each market to network. Considering I've been trying to get things moving in Scotland for a while now, you all know my work ethic, so to speak. To newcomers and fellow keepers alike it's part of my responsibility to inform, refer to other source/breeders where possible and promote good practice (hence most shops hating my guts :P ), and that's how it should be across the board.

[chris-uk]

Just another thought...
How many people realise that if a breeder has a pair that they bred last year, and again this year, a female from last year mating with a male from this year is genetically the same as mating siblings together? They don't have to be from the same litter.

Now an example of a different species...
I know that my Cuitzeos are an F1 and F2, and come from a breeder in Europe. I also know that every Cuitzeo in Europe will have come from a single source (albeit one that has multiple wild caught snakes and breeds to produce genetic diversity). If in 20 years time someone decides that they need to get new blood in, and looks to the US to bring in some new blood, there's a good chance that the snakes from the US would originate from the same European breeder because some of his snakes have found there way to the US.
I guess the point of this is, that over time the early records that would definitively show the bloodlines are likely to be lost, and it's in the fourth, fifth, sixth generation that the records would become most important. What we do today can and will impact on the hobby for decades.

Of my 13 snakes -
6 - I know who the breeder is, how to contact them, and where the parents and some of the offspring of those parents are.
2 - I know who the breeder is, how to contact them, but I'm not sure whether the parents are still with the same breeder (but a quick email would sort that out) or who has related offspring.
1 - Is wild caught.
1 - Is shop bought, I know it was imported from the US but nothing else.
1 - I know who bred them (unfortunately he can't be contacted), and where the parents are, but neither myself or the current keeper of the parents know much about the parents.
2 - I have absolutely no idea about their past because the keeper I got them from rescued them from a Gumtree ad.
In an ideal world, every snake we keep would fit into the first three categories above. I'd imagine the majority of keepers have a lot of snakes that fall outside my first three categories.

[ssssnakeluvr]

some inbreeding is required to bring out the various morphs... good idea not to go past f3....

[EasternGirl]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

[Stefan-A]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3?
Generations.

[gregmonsta]

some inbreeding is required to bring out the various morphs... good idea not to go past f3....

Definitely, to prove out a morph it is an important tool when limited sources of the required genetics abound. Had my earlier attempts at my anery concinnus project worked out I would be in F3 territory by now. Luckily I have Richard's experiences to draw on now and I won't have to go beyond F2 to test my ideas.
Again, it's then down to the breeder to advertise and sell responsibly, as required.


Just another thought...
How many people realise that if a breeder has a pair that they bred last year, and again this year, a female from last year mating with a male from this year is genetically the same as mating siblings together? They don't have to be from the same litter.

Now an example of a different species...
I know that my Cuitzeos are an F1 and F2, and come from a breeder in Europe. I also know that every Cuitzeo in Europe will have come from a single source (albeit one that has multiple wild caught snakes and breeds to produce genetic diversity). If in 20 years time someone decides that they need to get new blood in, and looks to the US to bring in some new blood, there's a good chance that the snakes from the US would originate from the same European breeder because some of his snakes have found there way to the US.
I guess the point of this is, that over time the early records that would definitively show the bloodlines are likely to be lost, and it's in the fourth, fifth, sixth generation that the records would become most important. What we do today can and will impact on the hobby for decades.


Some great points there. You would hope that some fresh blood would still be brought in somewhere along the line, in reference to the snakes crossing the pond.
It's also worth considering that in the wild a certain degree of inbreeding will be quite common. We're talking cousins and extensions of such. Nature seems to want to allow some separation of siblings considering that males becoming fertile at a younger age. Somewhere down the line it will happen though, and not just in isolated populations.
Again, it's down to how you build your collection, to follow your model.

My parietalis group is unrelated despite 3 of my animals coming from the same, trusted breeder. The first male can probably be traced to WC and the others can probably also be traced further.
My radix group has the same ratio. Two Dutch breeders and completely different lines (can probably be traced further).
My concinnus are currently a pair of Belgian brothers (can be traced back to WC through 2 generations) and an unrelated German female (F1 of fresh WC). If I find another female, with the males being related, I would still consider all offspring as F1.
My infernalis can be traced back through point of sale to a bloodline in Berlin, I think (will have to read the scribbles again and double check, these may be F1). I can only potentially generate F1/2 here as it stands.
My marcianus are 'unrelated' and were deliberately bought from different sources by the previous owner.
My 'Florida blue' sirtalis group is two sisters and an unrelated male, again according to previous owner. Again, all offspring of these would be F1.
The others I do not plan to breed so I will omit these - Panama may come into it, but it's not planned for and she's WC.

[gregmonsta]

Okay guys...I am so lost. What is F1, F2, and F3? Cee Cee and Seeley bred...and I think there is a good chance that Cee Cee is Seeley's mother. Of course, that wasn't exactly planned. So, are you saying that allowing parent/child or siblings to mate is not acceptable in the breeding community?

Breeding offspring back to a parent is quite common when trying to prove out a specific trait. You would have to consider the offspring as F2 realistically.

What we are saying is that standard practice tolerates inbreeding to the 3rd, F3 generation.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Some brilliant clarification here, thankyou everybody.

Can I just ask though, I thought F1 was offspring from purely unrelated mating
, f2 offspring from siblings mating
f3 next generation mating with no new bloodlines.
:)
Can you just confirm this or is f1 just first mating regardless?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

[paulh]

Some brilliant clarification here, thankyou everybody.

Can I just ask though, I thought F1 was offspring from purely unrelated mating
, f2 offspring from siblings mating
f3 next generation mating with no new bloodlines.
:)
Can you just confirm this or is f1 just first mating regardless?
F1, F2, etc can be very tricky.

In genetics, the F1 generation is produced by mating two pure breeding lines that are different in at least one gene pair. If I got an albino from Harry and a normal garter from Alf and mated them, the heterozygous offspring would be F1s. The two parents could be totally unrelated or cousins. And they are F1s whether they are one generation or 100 generations out of the wild. F2s are produced from brother x sister F1 matings. F3s are produced from brother x sister F2 matings.

A lot of people apply F1, F2, etc to generations out of the wild. Two wild caught snakes are bred to produce F1s. Those wild caught snakes could be totally unrelated or brother/sister. Mating two F1s produces F2s. The F1s could be totally unrelated or brother/sister.

Best to ask the breeder how he uses F1, F2, etc. to minimize incorrect assumptions. I'd love to get a pedigree back to the locality data of the wild caught ancestors, but that is getting into the opium dream realm.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ALL my breeding pairs are unrelated(to the best of my knowledge) AND i can trace their lineage back to original origin:p

[gregmonsta]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

[Thamnophis]

I bought my 2.1 tetrataenia from three different breeders in the Netherlands. Result was that this trio produced around 85 healthy young of which the most are still doing well as far as I know. They were all from the same male.
One daughter I kept and placed her together with the other "old" male. She gave a first litter of 10 that all do well.
In this way I seem to have a good breeding line.
What will happen when I add one or two specimen from another line to the breeding group? In theory this should be an improvement. But since all European tetrataenia are related in one way or another, you will never know if it will be an improvement. No one will know this in front.
I have the idea that there are a number of breeding lines in Europe that do well and a number of other lines that produce poor quality juveniles. Most of the breeders with the last mentioned lines stop breeding tetrataenia.
In this way only the fittest will survive. Next to that, there is no choice. There are no specimen available that are not related and most probably there will never will be.
I now have some young that are the future breeders. I hope to exchange one or two specimen with other breeders and than wait and see if this "new line" produces healthy young or not.

Normally I like to "inbreed" as little as possible, but with tetrataenia this is not a realistic option. The only thing you can try to avoid is that primary related specimen (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister) are used to breed.
But on the other hand... maybe healthy, perfectly functioning animals that are primary related will produce better young than when you add other "related" specimen to your breeding group (nephew, niece, grandniece, etc...).
You will know for sure after a number of years.

Very important is, when you think one of the snakes is, to your opinion, not suited for breeding, you end its life or keep it yourself and do not breed with it.

[chris-uk]

I bought my 2.1 tetrataenia from three different breeders in the Netherlands. Result was that this trio produced around 85 healthy young of which the most are still doing well as far as I know. They were all from the same male.
One daughter I kept and placed her together with the other "old" male. She gave a first litter of 10 that all do well.
In this way I seem to have a good breeding line.
What will happen when I add one or two specimen from another line to the breeding group? In theory this should be an improvement. But since all European tetrataenia are related in one way or another, you will never know if it will be an improvement. No one will know this in front.
I have the idea that there are a number of breeding lines in Europe that do well and a number of other lines that produce poor quality juveniles. Most of the breeders with the last mentioned lines stop breeding tetrataenia.
In this way only the fittest will survive. Next to that, there is no choice. There are no specimen available that are not related and most probably there will never will be.
I now have some young that are the future breeders. I hope to exchange one or two specimen with other breeders and than wait and see if this "new line" produces healthy young or not.

Normally I like to "inbreed" as little as possible, but with tetrataenia this is not a realistic option. The only thing you can try to avoid is that primary related specimen (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister) are used to breed.
But on the other hand... maybe healthy, perfectly functioning animals that are primary related will produce better young than when you add other "related" specimen to your breeding group (nephew, niece, grandniece, etc...).
You will know for sure after a number of years.

Very important is, when you think one of the snakes is, to your opinion, not suited for breeding, you end its life or keep it yourself and do not breed with it.

Now there's an example of responsible breeding of tetrataenia. For me, buying a tetrataenia was a case of knowing where it came from (I wouldn't have bought one from a random ad on RFUK for example). I think there must be lines out there where the breeding pair consistently produce poor offspring, but unlike you the breeder keeps churning them out because they're fairly easy to sell for a high price (high for garters anyway).
Interesting point about having a good line which may be weakened by introducing a tetrataenia from another line. I can see how that would apply with tetrataenia whereas other species shouldn't be the same.

[Invisible Snake]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

I think that would be a great idea. I've seen this done with corn snakes, I've included a link as an example ACR - CCC'S WINDJAMMER (http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=47)

[Thamnophis]

Breeders that sell offspring which is of poor quality, that is indeed a problem.
Breeding and than selling the young snakes requires discipline and honor.
But this is not present in all breeders when they can earn some money. Such a shame!

[chris-uk]

Breeders that sell offspring which is of poor quality, that is indeed a problem.
Breeding and than selling the young snakes requires discipline and honor.
But this is not present in all breeders when they can earn some money. Such a shame!

Absolutely.

By the way, the male you sent over to me is doing nicely. He eats like a pig and I regularly see him exploring his viv. :)

[snake man]

Quick question if you have 1.1 of the same litter and then breed them you would end up with F1 offspring if the parents are unrelated?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

I can't pretend to be as technically minded as you ;) but I'd be willing to do my bit. I would of thought there would be enough of us to make it work with all uk species. I have the paperwork for mine and do not mind been transparent with my collection .:)

[Thamnophis]

Quick question if you have 1.1 of the same litter and then breed them you would end up with F1 offspring if the parents are unrelated?

It doesn't matter if the parents are related or not to become F1. And like you put it, the 1.1 are F1 (born in captivity, I presume) and their young are F2.

[chris-uk]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

What does a studbook need? I've not seen one in action, but making some guesses...

- Every snake has a unique ID, which remains constant regardless as to the current owner.
- Basic details for each snake which won't change (DOB, sex, parents, breeder).
- Current details for each snake (current owner, weight/length on a particular date)
- A record of each mating or attempted mating to identify the other snake in the pair.
- A record of each litter (total born, total live births).

- Each keeper has a unique ID.
- Basic details about each keeper.
- Contact details for each keeper.

- A form to register a snake.
- A form to transfer ownership of a snake.
- A form to update the current details of the snake.
- A form to record the death of a snake.
- Search interface to enable anyone to find useful information in the studbook.

Systematically, it's not a huge task to build something that would do the above and allow the studbook to be searched. For example, using my company's software I could have a studbook up and running in a couple of days (whether I'd be allowed to use company resources is another matter entirely and with a system that cost real money to build and host you open a can of worms as to who is responsible and pays for it).
However, the value of the system would be limited by the number of keepers and breeders who didn't use it. Like Greg, I have the interest but not the time, but I think the majority of people keeping snakes (even garters) wouldn't care enough to use a studbook and keep it up-to-date.

If the EGSA have a studbook couldn't UK garters be part of that? I've not joined the EGSA because I don't speak any German and the majority of the association's business is carried out in German (not everything is translated, and almost all forum posts are German).

[CrazyHedgehog]

would this not be something that the IHS should look into? maybe to help strengthen the reputation of herping etc?
do other reptiles have this in the UK? does it depend on how protected they are? if I had tortoises and bred them, would I not need to prove they were captive bred?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

would this not be something that the IHS should look into? maybe to help strengthen the reputation of herping etc?
do other reptiles have this in the UK? does it depend on how protected they are? if I had tortoises and bred them, would I not need to prove they were captive bred?

It's a great idea. I've been a member of the west midlands branch for a couple of years now but they do not have the interest in garters like we do. I guess it would not hurt to ask and quite rightly it would be something positive for the hobby. Saying that I do think the only way would be us thamnophis people to pull together . I'm thinking it does not have to be that complicated . For example if there was only 6 keepers interested , they swap details of there animals and if 1 keeper had a snake from one breeder he could loan it to another with a different background . (I think that makes sense??long day!). People keep records of breedings ect and swap young with the appropriate keepers. This is only an idea in my head so not full proof just a suggestion.

[Spankenstyne]

Are there still people finding infernalis influence in some of the European lines?

I don't ask in any sort of accusatory way but out of personal curiousity. A few years back there was more talk of it but I haven't seen it brought up recently.


I do want to add that it's great to see the effort being put in by the Euro breeders trying to keep the limited gene pool as pure but diverse as possible. With so few Canadians still working with them Europe seems to be the best hope we have for captive breeding.

[gregmonsta]

Are there still people finding infernalis influence in some of the European lines?

I don't ask in any sort of accusatory way but out of personal curiousity. A few years back there was more talk of it but I haven't seen it brought up recently.


Can of worms time :rolleyes: for the sake of debate, of course.

Well ... there's a point of debate even prior to the introduction of infernalis into the captive tetrataenia genepool.

Do we see them as a distinct sub-species or a locality specific morph in isolation from the infernalis genepool? After all, they have been de-classified and re-classified and debated about as they stand in the wild.

I'm happy to treat them as a separate species as they are currently classified but you can see where some of the cross-breeding in Europe is a moot point. Considering even Rossman's offering came at a time when tetrataenia were assimilated into infernalis.

In captivity:
First of all - some lines are trace-able, some are not. Some breeders that have done this can be named, and again some can not. The fact is that this could even have happend in one of the zoos at some point. I do know for a fact that that this was dabbled with in the British genepool and I have even come across people on British forums whose prime intention, as I found out, was to do more of the same (discovered in response to me trying to give advice on how best to proceed with their tetrataenia project) inspired simply by the fact that it had been done before.
Another issue is that we have also seen 'pure' infernalis produce offspring with the tetrataenia phenotype. So are both lines polluted? or is this proof of a morph?

But, like yourself, I haven't heard anything new on the subject for a while ... and I'll re-state that I'm in favour of tetrataenia remaining a separate entity as it stands ;)

[Spankenstyne]

I'm of the same mindset about it all but was just curious if there had been any further more recent insight I wasn't aware of. There certainly isn't a clear line when it comes to the two, but personally I'm also in favour of tetrataenia remaining a separate entity as well. This even though I do think they are likely a somewhat isolated aberrant population of infernalis.

Now to open a completely different can of worms :o .. I also tend to believe that the gene pool might be a little deeper than is thought, with the amount of smuggling that has happened over the years within the hobby it would be naive to think that there haven't been at least a few trickle into Europe & Canada over the years that aren't from the original zoo stock.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

I assume with all the zoo regulations in the uk that the ones at Chester zoo are a clean bloodline or even wild caught??

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/johnc79/8EEC5D45-46C8-42FC-B313-C62A764B469E-5840-00000538A42E22AB.jpg

[Thamnophis]

Take a look at European Studbook Foundation (http://www.studbooks.eu/)

[CrazyHedgehog]

I assume with all the zoo regulations in the uk that the ones at Chester zoo are a clean bloodline or even wild caught??


Sorry, pretty sure they are captive bred, (
I think I have even sold to some of the zoos, I was told off for selling really cheap... but it seemed a worthy cause at the time!!)

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Sorry, pretty sure they are captive bred, (
I think I have even sold to some of the zoos, I was told off for selling really cheap... but it seemed a worthy cause at the time!!)

I would of thought a big zoo like Chester would be stricted on where they get there animals from . I know they have to apply to some Europen zoo group there in for the animals they want to obtain but I'm not sure how it works .:-s

[Greg'sGarters]

I've never heard of serious problems arising from inbreeding

[guidofatherof5]

With respect I would say the act itself is a serious problem.

[Greg'sGarters]

With respect I would say the act itself is a serious problem.

It's definitely something that you should try to avoid. But I'm just saying I've never heard of anyone having serious problems with it. Then again, I haven't heard of many people having that problem.

[guidofatherof5]

With respect I would say the act itself is a serious problem.

I owe you an apology. I thought this was the hybrid thread. I need to up my meds.
:D What I said was not meant for this thread or topic. Sorry.;)

[Greg'sGarters]

I owe you an apology. I thought this was the hybrid thread. I need to up my meds.
:D What I said was not meant for this thread or topic. Sorry.;)

No worries, stuff like that happens to me all the time. Don't sweat it. "To err is human"

[Stefan-A]

I've never heard of serious problems arising from inbreeding
Why not? It's as old as sexual reproduction.

[RedSidedSPR]

So it's a bad idea to breed 2 siblings of the same litter, say to bring out a morph? What's the biggest concern, health problems or what?

Always knew it was a problem with other animals, but never gave it any thought with snakes, for some reason.

[twgrosmick]

So it's a bad idea to breed 2 siblings of the same litter, say to bring out a morph? What's the biggest concern, health problems or what?

Always knew it was a problem with other animals, but never gave it any thought with snakes, for some reason.


From my experience one or two generations doesn't cause an issue. Breeding a f1 to f1 sibling together to reproduce a morph won't adversely affect the snake. Even breeding the siblings to those back together won't cause any major health problems. It is when you have people breeding three, four, or even five generations that you see health issues, defects, etc. This is just my experience. If it is a new morph then there is no other option to produce it then to breed sibling to sibling. If there are unrelated lines available then I would def. try to get those before breeding siblings together. Just my opinion. The key thing is to make sure whoever you sell the snake/snakes too know the bloodlines of the animals so they know the shouldn't keep breeding them together.

[Greg'sGarters]

If you want to bring out a morph sure but MANY​ generations of inbreeding may cause problems.

[RedSidedSPR]

I see.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...so I have a couple of questions...just to make sure I am understanding everything clearly. If I were to breed two of the eastern babies that Cee Cee and Seeley produced...even if Cee Cee and Seeley are related, the offspring of the babies would still be F1, or they would be F2? And there is no problems with breeding those sibling babies? Now, if I breed one of the eastern babies with a wild caught eastern baby...what would they be? And would the offspring produced be considered CB even though the female was WC?

Now...this is kind of unrelated but...my eastern babies are in with my concinnus baby, who I believe to be female and my albino parietalis, who I know to be male. I think the eastern babies are both male...I need to get pics up to confirm. The eastern babies are 7 mos old. The concinnus female is probably around the same age. Yesterday, I saw one of the easterns trying to court the concinnus. Should I be separating the males and females at this age? Will they attempt to mate?

[twgrosmick]

Now...this is kind of unrelated but...my eastern babies are in with my concinnus baby, who I believe to be female and my albino parietalis, who I know to be male. I think the eastern babies are both male...I need to get pics up to confirm. The eastern babies are 7 mos old. The concinnus female is probably around the same age. Yesterday, I saw one of the easterns trying to court the concinnus. Should I be separating the males and females at this age? Will they attempt to mate?

It is not unheard of for garter snakes to breed at a year old so I would separate them by sexes if possible... I only keep mixed species/sexes together for the first few months. Even then, most of the time they get split up

[chris-uk]

Okay...so I have a couple of questions...just to make sure I am understanding everything clearly. If I were to breed two of the eastern babies that Cee Cee and Seeley produced...even if Cee Cee and Seeley are related, the offspring of the babies would still be F1, or they would be F2?

The F-number is the number of generations from the wild (and assumed unrelated parents)... although I believe there are some variations to that interpretation (usng the F-number to denote the number of generations from known unrelated parents). So Cee Cee and Seeley's babies would be F1. If you bred two of those together you'd have F2.


And there is no problems with breeding those sibling babies?

Breeding F1 siblings shouldn't be a huge cause for concern, but if you have the option for breeding unrelated pairs then I'd go for that before breeding siblings.


Now, if I breed one of the eastern babies with a wild caught eastern baby...what would they be?

They would be F1, because one of the parents was wild.


And would the offspring produced be considered CB even though the female was WC?

I'd say that they are CB -the snakes would have mated and the babies are born in captivity. A more interesting scenario is whether the off-spring of a WC female are WC or CB if the babies are born in captivity.

[twgrosmick]

I'd say that they are CB -the snakes would have mated and the babies are born in captivity. A more interesting scenario is whether the off-spring of a WC female are WC or CB if the babies are born in captivity.

Breeders can differentiate between captive born (CB) and captive bred and born (CBB). The difference is obviously that the adults were bred in captivity. The fact that they were off-spring of a WC or CB adult really doesn't matter. Hope this clears things up

[SilasBannook]

Can of worms time :rolleyes: for the sake of debate, of course.

Well ... there's a point of debate even prior to the introduction of infernalis into the captive tetrataenia genepool.

Do we see them as a distinct sub-species or a locality specific morph in isolation from the infernalis genepool? After all, they have been de-classified and re-classified and debated about as they stand in the wild.

Another issue is that we have also seen 'pure' infernalis produce offspring with the tetrataenia phenotype. So are both lines polluted? or is this proof of a morph?


Gregmonsta,
I found your comment about having seen 'pure' infernalis produce tetrataenia-like offspring surprising. As I have two infernalis garters I plan to breed I was interested and concerned in knowing if that could happen to my snakes (being in the US having an endangered species at home wouldn't be ideal). Anyway, I looked for other reports backing that statement and only found that in the 2005 Endangered Species report for the San Francisco Garter Snake it was believed that integration of infernalis and tetrataenia wasn't very likely as the integrade zones studied had remained healthy and distinct for numerous years (http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San Francisco Garter Snake 5 Year Review.FINAL.pdf).
Could you help me find a report or two of infernalis producing tetrataenia babies?

I did find one report of an infernalis having a tetraenia baby but the mother was mated with a tetraenia in captivity (Alan's Garter Snakes - My Collection (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/mycollection.htm)). Would be interested in seeing reporting of tetraenia babies from a mating of two infernalis snakes.

Thanks.

[chris-uk]

Greg said that he'd heard of infernalis pairs producing offspring with a tetrataenia phenotype. That doesn't mean that the offspring were tetrataenia, it means that they displayed some physical traits that would be more typical of tetrataenia. I
suspect that the reports he referred to are not published but are either forum discussions amongst European breeders or simply conversations between breeders.
I'd be surprised if it didn't swing both ways with infernalis/tetrataenia, for example my male tetrataenia has red spots on his tail rather than the stripe continuing all the way to the tip, if you just looked at the tail you may think he was an infernalis.

If you're concerned that you may produce infernalis that look like tetrataenia, my advice would be to document the breeding and birth with notes and photos.

[gregmonsta]

Here's one of our members reporting an infernalis born with the tetrataenia phenotype - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/6985-t-s-tetrataenia-t-s-infernalis.html

But we can see this level of variation in other species too. For example: concinnus have shown the capability to resemble infernalis, pickeringi and fitchi phenotypes in parts of their range.

[SilasBannook]

Thanks. That is very interesting. As for being concerned, I am not really worried but was more dubious. I will definitely document my snakes breeding and the produced litter. Since it comes from Scott Felzer's line and no one seems to have reported something along that line I doubt that would happen to any of my snakes. Gotta love the great documentation on this forum relative to Reptileparadise having a litter of infernalis where one did appear to be a Tetrataenia. I hadn't come across that thread. Thanks for pointing it out.