Escapee, recaught with baggage

[Tim C.]

Around Halloween of last year my very tame cb albino checkered got away from my cousins daughter and decided she was going to explore the world. While mowing the back field in early June I saw a yellow wiggly tail go up under a log. I lifted the log and to my surprise it was my long lost friend. I gave her a couple minutes to relax as we stared at each other and when I put my hand out I was even more surprised when she came right to my hand. She reminded me of an excited dog and after a few minutes of vigorous rubbing, she likes it rough for some reason, she settled right into her overlapped figure eight holding position around my fingers and went to sleep, It was as if she had never been gone.
If you think that part of the story is sweet, I was even more surprised on August 3rd when I looked over into her viv and saw her giving birth. She is now the proud mother of ten babies. No deaths, no beans!
Being born in Kentucky Im assuming they are checkered/eastern mixed. They mostly look like normal checkered except with brighter yellow, slightly different cheek/lip-scale pattern and they have those bluish green reflective stretch mark stripes between the checkers that are common on easterns. They are already as tame as their mother, love attention and are very curious about my movements around the room. They are eating well and about half have had their second shed.
Now comes the questions. I don't really want that many so what do I do with them? If I keep them and breed them should I breed them with checkered or eastern? Albino or regular? Will their offspring be normal or albino? If I sell them how much should I expect for them from a local pet shop?
I would appreciate any advice or answers from anyone with experience and constructive intentions. Thanks

[joeyjoe9876]

well if you are positive that it's the same snake and that it's had eastern/checkered hybrid babies than you probably shouldn't breed or sell them. There is a good amount of people in the community who don't exactly find it tasteful to dirty up gene pools from different subspecies than sell them, seeing as someone could buy them hoping to breed them and sell the babies.

[Invisible Snake]

Daaamn she must've had an awesome adventure. Could you please post pictures of the mother and of the babies?

[mikem]

Do you have photos of the babies? I would be very interested in seeing them :)

No more breeding. These will either need to stay with you for the entirety of their lives or go to a home where you are 1000% sure they will be kept only as a pet. Do not release them.

I'm sure there will be a few members here that would gladly give them loving homes.

[Tim C.]

694269436944 Sorry for the poor quality. I do not house them together but they interact fine

[Tim C.]

well if you are positive that it's the same snake and that it's had eastern/checkered hybrid babies than you probably shouldn't breed or sell them. There is a good amount of people in the community who don't exactly find it tasteful to dirty up gene pools from different subspecies than sell them, seeing as someone could buy them hoping to breed them and sell the babies.

Im positive Its the same because of her incomplete scale on the top of her head. Not to mention checkereds are from the west, not Kentucky

[Invisible Snake]

Hey when you first acquired her as a pet, around how old was she?

My reason for asking is because she might have retained sperm from a mating while under the previous owners care.

[Tim C.]

694569466947They were 1 day old in the pics dated Aug 4

[Tim C.]

Hey when you first acquired her as a pet, around how old was she?

My reason for asking is because she might have retained sperm from a mating while under the previous owners care.
She was 10 inches long, bought online and mailed to me. Im guessing she was about 7 months old and 25 inches when she wandered.

[Invisible Snake]

Then I think it is highly unlikely that it was retained sperm. Please do not release them into the wild or breed them as that would contaminate the bloodlines of both sirtalis and marcianus garters.

If you decide to sell or give them away, only do so to experienced garter snake keepers with an edict that they must never be bred or released into the wild. Good Luck! :)

[Tim C.]

Sounds silly but im too attached to them to think of them fending for themselves, so releasing them is not even a consideration. I dont think I can give them all enough attention, not to mention the responsibility of feeding and cleaning up after them so they probably will end up at a pet shop. Most likely people who buy from petstores will not breed them, unless accidentaly with vivmates. If thats the case, then chalk it up to fate.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds silly but im too attached to them to think of them fending for themselves, so releasing them is not even a consideration. I dont think I can give them all enough attention, not to mention the responsibility of feeding and cleaning up after them so they probably will end up at a pet shop. Most likely people who buy from petstores will not breed them, unless accidentaly with vivmates. If thats the case, then chalk it up to fate.

Fate would not be the word I would be thinking of.:rolleyes:

[joeyjoe9876]

a pet shop would probably not be the best place for these guys. once they leave your care you have no idea who they are going to, or how they will be cared for and treated.

[Tim C.]

Fate would not be the word I would be thinking of.:rolleyes:
I appreciate you reading my post but I see nothing constructive in your comment.

[Tim C.]

a pet shop would probably not be the best place for these guys. once they leave your care you have no idea who they are going to, or how they will be cared for and treated. Thanks for your input, If you know anyone interested in having an unusual normal and will do what is best for them I would be willing to sell them for a fair price to cover shipping and a little extra for my time involved thus far. If not my only option is the local pet store that can legally sell domestic reptiles. After all I cant release them. I plan on keeping one female and would consider trading the rest. I am interested in a radix and blue. (CB baby females only please, not interested in any more surprises)

[ProXimuS]

Selling them to a pet shop wouldn't be a good idea. You can try and post an ad on the For Sale/Trade/Adoption (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/sale-trade-adoption/) section of the forum. Just be sure to re-explain the situation, so any potential buyers will know what they're geting into.

[Stefan-A]

Euthanize them, or keep them. "Fate" is no excuse for letting them spread.

[guidofatherof5]

Fate would not be the word I would be thinking of.:rolleyes:


I appreciate you reading my post but I see nothing constructive in your comment.

I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my post. That wasn't the intent.
Please accept my apology.

[gregmonsta]

... so they probably will end up at a pet shop. Most likely people who buy from petstores will not breed them, unless accidentaly with vivmates. If thats the case, then chalk it up to fate.

The petshop is the worst place for them to go - No matter how good the pet shop - the sale is the most important thing and follow up on whether these hybrids are being bred is going to be nil.
Chalking eventual outcomes to 'fate' is null and void here - this is your responsibility - future breedings are therefore not down to fate but simply down to your actions.

Your options, as already stated:


Keep them yourself
Find responsible homes for them. With people that won't breed further or risk polluting the captive genepool
Euthanise them
Find someone that has ophiophagus snakes and needs feeders

At any rate, the pet shop route will only encourage others to think that hybrids must be a viable option and start a chain of fallacy.

We've had others here produce unwanted hybrids before. Forum members here are your most likely option for finding responsible homes so start advertising them.

The last thing you may want to bear in mind that for the next litter or so there is a chance that some of the future offspring may also be 'polluted', so to speak.

[EasternGirl]

I agree with what the other members are saying. The babies do look like easterns from the pics...although it is hard to tell for sure. If they are hybrids, I would keep them...if you cannot care for all of them, I certainly understand...it is a huge responsibility. Advertise here on the forum to look for good homes for them. In my experience, most pet stores do not even know how to care for garters properly. Also, you could not guarantee the babies are going to good homes. Half the time people buy snakes for their children who know nothing about caring for snakes and the snakes sit in a dirty tank, unfed and dehydrated until they die. It's just not a good idea. Also...many garters don't make it out of the pet store because the pet store doesn't know how to care for them properly and they under or overheat them or try to feed them crickets. I'm sure you could find a forum member who would be willing to take them.

[twgrosmick]

It is a shame that when people aren't responsible enough to keep their own animals contained in the enclosure. Then when something like this happens they aren't responsible enough to prevent any further damage from being done. I may get criticized for this but I think euthanizing them is the best option is this scenario....

[Tim C.]

It is a shame that when people aren't responsible enough to keep their own animals contained in the enclosure. Then when something like this happens they aren't responsible enough to prevent any further damage from being done. I may get criticized for this but I think euthanizing them is the best option is this scenario.... I suppose you have never had an escapee, do you suggest I just keep it in a prison and never interact with it. I think its a shame when someone who doesnt know me beats around the bush to call me irresponsible. I appreciate everyone who has given their constructive two cents worth. Euthanizing has already been suggested, in the future please read all the posts before adding your wooden nickles worth.

[Tim C.]

The petshop is the worst place for them to go - No matter how good the pet shop - the sale is the most important thing and follow up on whether these hybrids are being bred is going to be nil.
Chalking eventual outcomes to 'fate' is null and void here - this is your responsibility - future breedings are therefore not down to fate but simply down to your actions.

Your options, as already stated:


Keep them yourself
Find responsible homes for them. With people that won't breed further or risk polluting the captive genepool
Euthanise them
Find someone that has ophiophagus snakes and needs feeders

At any rate, the pet shop route will only encourage others to think that hybrids must be a viable option and start a chain of fallacy.

We've had others here produce unwanted hybrids before. Forum members here are your most likely option for finding responsible homes so start advertising them.

The last thing you may want to bear in mind that for the next litter or so there is a chance that some of the future offspring may also be 'polluted', so to speak.
Thanks for your input but as I stated keeping them is not really an option.
I believe a pet store would have a better chance of finding a good home than I would
I don't see where killing them is in their best interest, I would definitely release them where I found the mother before that happens. I had already bought a replacement snake and had I known she was gravid I may have just left her be, after all if she survived the winter than she adapted to the wild well.
It was their fate that brought them into the world and if it was against the laws of nature for the breeds to mix then it wouldn't have happened. Im sure its happened many times by wild snakes crawling up into vehicles in one part of the country then crawling out in another. How did morphs come to be if not by cross breeding. Ive seen breeders advertise mixbreeds. Why is it fine for them to produce them in their snakemills but not if happens completely naturally? As far as using them as feeders I'll withhold my comment except to say I dont think posting them in the classifieds on this site would be a good idea due that possibility. I do appreciate your time taken to reply to my post though. Have a nice day.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for your input but As I stated keeping them is not really an option.
I believe a pet store would have a better chance of finding a good home than I would
I don't see where killing them is in their best interest, I would definitely release them where I found the mother before that happens. I had already bought a replacement snake and had I known she was gravid I may have just left her be, after all if she survived the winter than she adapted to the wild well.
It was their fate that brought them into the world and if it was against the laws of nature for the breeds to mix then it wouldn't have happened. Im sure its happened many times by wild snakes crawling up into vehicles in one part of the country then crawling out in another. How did morphs come to be if not by cross breeding. Ive seen breeders advertise mixbreeds. Why is it fine for them to produce them in their snakemills but not if happens completely naturally? As far as using them as feeders I'll withhold my comment except to say I dont think posting them in the classifieds on this site would be a good idea due that possibility. I do appreciate your time taken to reply to my post though. Have a nice day.

I think you are wrong by thinking this forum is the wrong place to look for a good home. This is the perfect place to find responsible people who will give them a home. I don't think anyone here would take them from you and euthanize them. I just don't see it. I for one would give them a home and never allow them to breed. I feel the same way about life being precious. Hybrids created in nature are one thing and hybrids created in a captive situation is completely different.
Morphs are not a product of inter-breeding it is breeding within a specific species.
If I can help in this situation feel free to contact me.

[twgrosmick]

I suppose you have never had an escapee, do you suggest I just keep it in a prison and never interact with it. I think its a shame when someone who doesnt know me beats around the bush to call me irresponsible. I appreciate everyone who has given their constructive two cents worth. Euthanizing has already been suggested, in the future please read all the posts before adding your wooden nickles worth.

As a matter of fact I do interact with all my snakes on a daily basis. That being said I have over 40 snakes currently and have had hundreds of others in the past only having one escape at which time I made sure and searched all over until I found it that same day. Regardless of whether it was mentioned before I can still give my opinion. Releasing is the absolute worst option. Everyone that has given their opinion and yet you still feel the need to disagree with everyone. There is no point in asking a question when you knew exactly what you were going to do with them from the beginning.....

[ProXimuS]

It was their fate that brought them into the world

It wasn't the snakes fate. It's "fate" depends on the owner once it's in captivity.



if it was against the laws of nature for the breeds to mix then it wouldn't have happened.
"Naturally" it shouldn't have happened because they (generally) shouldn't be ranging in the same area in "nature."



How did morphs come to be if not by cross breeding.

Morphs have nothing to do with cross breeding species.


Ive seen breeders advertise mixbreeds. Why is it fine for them to produce them in their snakemills but not if happens completely naturally?

And that is highly frowned upon. Doesn't make it right just because they do it.

I still think your best bet is to post an ad on the classified section. You asked what to do, and we gave you our best shots.

[ProXimuS]

There is no point in asking a question when you knew exactly what you were going to do with them from the beginning.....

Agreed

[gregmonsta]

Thanks for your input but as I stated keeping them is not really an option.


So find them suitable homes.



I believe a pet store would have a better chance of finding a good home than I would.


You're wrong, you are more able to explain the parentage/check the suitability of a new owner than 99% of pet shops out there.



I don't see where killing them is in their best interest

It's not in their best interest .... it is in the best interest of the hobby and keeping captive bloodlines pure.


I would definitely release them where I found the mother before that happens.

And that would be the most irresponsible thing you could do - potentially ruining your local snake population and affecting the ecosystem in the area. Not to mention it most probably being a criminal offence.


I had already bought a replacement snake and had I known she was gravid I may have just left her be, after all if she survived the winter than she adapted to the wild well.


Again .... see above point.


Im sure its happened many times by wild snakes crawling up into vehicles in one part of the country then crawling out in another.

It's possible .... but that doesn't mean you can justify what your saying considering you have been told what the viable options are.


How did morphs come to be if not by cross breeding.

Morphs are natural mutation and not a result of hybridisation.


Ive seen breeders advertise mixbreeds. Why is it fine for them to produce them in their snakemills but not if happens completely naturally?

Because they are catering to a specific market which, unfortunately for you, does not exist in the garter hobby.


As far as using them as feeders I'll withhold my comment except to say I dont think posting them in the classifieds on this site would be a good idea due that possibility.

You really haven't paid attention have you? We recommend advertising them here because they WILL find good homes here! We urge you to advertise them here to STOP any of the other options from happening. NONE of us would euthanise or feed these to anything else - these are YOUR options.

[Stefan-A]

I don't see where killing them is in their best interest,
There are other, greater interests to consider. When animal welfare and nature conservation are in conflict, nature conservation must be recognized as more important. Yes, this is an issue of nature conservation.


I would definitely release them where I found the mother before that happens.
Don't do it. That's the absolutely worst thing you could do.


It was their fate that brought them into the world and
Forget about fate, there's no fate but what we make for ourselves.


if it was against the laws of nature for the breeds to mix then it wouldn't have happened.
The laws of nature do not say how things should be. Also, we're not talking about breeds, we are talking about species.


Im sure its happened many times by wild snakes crawling up into vehicles
That is absolutely no excuse for doing it deliberately.


How did morphs come to be if not by cross breeding.
By random genetic mutations becoming visible through inbreeding, not cross breeding.


Ive seen breeders advertise mixbreeds.
And they set a piss-poor example, and they generally do not release the offspring.


Why is it fine for them to produce them in their snakemills but not if happens completely naturally?
1. It's not fine for them to produce hybrids and 2. it hasn't happened completely naturally.


As far as using them as feeders I'll withhold my comment except to say I dont think posting them in the classifieds on this site would be a good idea due that possibility.
And how do you figure that? Apart from me, nobody here would be prepared to use them as feeders. And note: I'm half a world away.


I do appreciate your time taken to reply to my post though. Have a nice day.
Listen to sound advice. You might not like what you hear, but don't do anything as stupid as releasing those offspring.

[Tim C.]

As a matter of fact I do interact with all my snakes on a daily basis. That being said I have over 40 snakes currently and have had hundreds of others in the past only having one escape at which time I made sure and searched all over until I found it that same day. Regardless of whether it was mentioned before I can still give my opinion. Releasing is the absolute worst option. Everyone that has given their opinion and yet you still feel the need to disagree with everyone. There is no point in asking a question when you knew exactly what you were going to do with them from the beginning.....
I am just looking for insight on why one decision is better than the other as many have posted. I don't disagree with everyone, many have posted good suggestions.
Where do you keep your 40 snakes in little plastic prisons, stacked on shelves like they are a comic book collection so you can brag about how many you have. You cant possibly give 40 snakes the attention it takes to call them pets, they are merely livestock. Why do you care about my snakes if you treat yours like numbers? You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to disagree with it. If you feel like I asked a pointless question then refrain from posting pointless answers. Have a good day giving your snakes the attention they deserve for a maximum of .6 hours each if you stay up for 24 hrs.

[Tim C.]

There are other, greater interests to consider. When animal welfare and nature conservation are in conflict, nature conservation must be recognized as more important. Yes, this is an issue of nature conservation.


Don't do it. That's the absolutely worst thing you could do.


The laws of nature do not say how things should be. Also, we're not talking about breeds, we are talking about species.


That is absolutely no excuse for doing it deliberately.


By random genetic mutations becoming visible through inbreeding, not cross breeding.


And they set a piss-poor example, and they generally do not release the offspring.


1. It's not fine for them to produce hybrids and 2. it hasn't happened completely naturally.


And how do you figure that? Apart from me, nobody here would be prepared to use them as feeders. And note: I'm half a world away.


Listen to sound advice. You might not like what you hear, but don't do anything as stupid as releasing those offspring.

I agree with most the things you posted but with some of the answers you gave I think you may have misinterpreted what the situation is. From your comments I get the feeling you think my statements are different than they were. You need to read all the posts and not just the last few. I do appreciate your input, thanks

[Stefan-A]

I am just looking for insight on why one decision is better than the other as many have posted. I don't disagree with everyone, many have posted good suggestions.
Where do you keep your 40 snakes in little plastic prisons, stacked on shelves like they are a comic book collection so you can brag about how many you have. You cant possibly give 40 snakes the attention it takes to call them pets, they are merely livestock. Why do you care about my snakes if you treat yours like numbers? You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to disagree with it. If you feel like I asked a pointless question then refrain from posting pointless answers. Have a good day giving your snakes the attention they deserve for a maximum of .6 hours each if you stay up for 24 hrs.
What sort of attention do you think they need? They're not social animals, they don't get enjoyment from petting or being dragged out of their familiar surroundings and exposed and they're definitely not toys. Those who treat their animals "as numbers" are usually doing it right. Ideally, you'd treat them as houseplants or fish; See to their needs and keep your hands off.


I agree with most the things you posted but with some of the answers you gave I think you may have misinterpreted what the situation is. From your comments I get the feeling you think my statements are different than they were. You need to read all the posts and not just the last few. I do appreciate your input, thanks
Be specific. I was.

[Tim C.]

What sort of attention do you think they need? They're not social animals, they don't get enjoyment from petting or being dragged out of their familiar surroundings and exposed and they're definitely not toys. Those who treat their animals "as numbers" are usually doing it right. Ideally, you'd treat them as houseplants or fish; See to their needs and keep your hands off.


Be specific. I was. My snake loves to held, whats more she likes to be rubbed fast and firm never striking but continuously coming back for more. When I open the door to her viv she comes to me like a dog. If you look closely at the pics you will see my snakes are holding me, with no attempt of escaping or showing signs of fear or discontent. Why have a snake if not to enjoy it and it you?

[Light of Dae]

I think it is awesome that you found her after such a long time. I think if anything was fate here is that you found her before she gave birth to the hybrids outside which would have really muddied the wild gene pool n been bad. It is awesome that she remembered you and stayed close to the house, Nevermind the fact she is an albino and survived in the wild that long.

I find it interesting thinking about her breeding with an eastern, like did she follow other Easterns to a nearby hibernation spot? How did she find it? The pictures of the babies are a hybrid for sure, showing traits of both species.

Anyways, more to the point of what to do now.
I agree 100% that they should not go to a pet store.
Please don't let them go! It wouldn't be 'natural' as Checkered Garters are not native to the area and this hybrid would never had occurred if people had not brought them into the area to be CAPTIVE.
I could see maybe selling a couple to a Kingsnake owner for 'treats' as a better solution then releasing them.
Killing them ... I couldn't do it unless they were suffering. The fact they are healthy... Personally I would let some forum members (Like Steve or Guidofather5 Or someone in your area(halfway across the world right?) like Greg or Chris in the UK) Let them pay for shipping and give them a good home.
You are responsible to ensure that these 'mutts' never get to breed.

Where do you live? This forum has members all across the world from the UK to USA to Canada. I'm sure that someone near you would love to help you out and take some of these little guys off your hands n give them good homes.


I don't want to sit here and accuse you of letting your snake escape. I had a snake (native to my area though) escape on me, as well many people have had it happen and well Sht happens. To put it bluntly. Now it has to be dealt with properly.

Please take care that none of them can escape again.

Garters are escape Artists in case you didn't notice lol.

[Stefan-A]

Why have a snake if not to enjoy it and it you?
It doesn't enjoy you.

[Tim C.]

Thanks to all who have given constructive advise and helped me make my decision. My cousin warned me that if I posted anything on this site I would get two good answers and the rest would be from self riotous know it alls. I feel I recieved more than two good answers, thanks to those who were constructive, Have a nice day.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks to all who have given constructive advise and helped me make my decision. My cousin warned me that if I posted anything on this site I would get two good answers and the rest would be from self riotous know it alls. I feel I recieved more than two good answers, thanks to those who were constructive, Have a nice day.

Bad form.

You are mistaking passion for self righteousness. Insulting comments will not gather you help.

[Light of Dae]

My snake loves to held, whats more she likes to be rubbed fast and firm never striking but continuously coming back for more. When I open the door to her viv she comes to me like a dog. If you look closely at the pics you will see my snakes are holding me, with no attempt of escaping or showing signs of fear or discontent. Why have a snake if not to enjoy it and it you?

I see both sides you and Stefan are talking about. Some people have them to breed them They are not pets and aren't used to interaction. They would feel like they are being drug out of their safe little homes right. And they would enjoy attention because they wouldn't have a clue as to what was going on if they ain't used to it.
Then there are people(like me and like Tim and many others) who have them as pets, and they do, yes enjoy being help n getting attention. Some are more apt to be social then others. Depending on any number of things like how they were raised and the personality of the snake itself. Some enjoy it, others put up with it.

I have some that love attention, and others that are happier being left alone(they are very young yet though and I will continue to pester them as I want them to get used to it and understand I am not trying to eat them lol)

[Tim C.]

Bad form.

You are mistaking passion for self righteous. Insulting comments will not gather you help. Just repeating the warning that my cousin gave me. if you read my comment you will see I dont totally agree. Furthermore I have already been told by one of your members that is the norm here so apparently my cousin is not the only one who feels that way. Probably many more that agree I suspect. Made my decision, Thanks, Good day

[guidofatherof5]

Just repeating the warning that my cousin gave me. if you read my comment you will see I dont totally agree. Furthermore I have already been told by one of your members that is the norm here so apparently my cousin is not the only one who feels that way. Probably many more that agree I suspect. Made my decision, Thanks, Good day

Probably even more that don't. Good bye.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks to all who have given constructive advise and helped me make my decision. My cousin warned me that if I posted anything on this site I would get two good answers and the rest would be from self riotous know it alls. I feel I recieved more than two good answers, thanks to those who were constructive, Have a nice day.
"Know it alls"... This is a public forum. There are people here from just about every field. Mine happens to be environmental protection. Am I not supposed to tell about the problems from that perspective?

[Invisible Snake]

Hey Tim do you plan on keeping any of the babies? (just curious)

[gregmonsta]

Thanks to all who have given constructive advise and helped me make my decision.

And the decision is?


My cousin warned me that if I posted anything on this site I would get two good answers and the rest would be from self riotous know it alls.

There's nothing self-righteous about our comments or criticism .... maybe if you were less defensive and open to reasonable statement and critique there would be less of a need to spell out the facts for you. You're being self-righteous (that's how you spell it, by the way) when you decide to state that you would do something because of your personal feelings inspite of the facts offered.
Contrary to your cousin's warnings this is actually a forum where you're less likely to experience a full on 'flaming', which you don't deserve for the questions asked, but may be entitled to for your attitude.

[Tim C.]

Hey Tim do you plan on keeping any of the babies? (just curious) I already stated I plan on keeping one female. I also stated i am willing to trade/sell them for a minimal price to cover shipping and a little for my time involved. No offense to you invisible snake but this is part of my frustration over this site today. People are responding to quotes and replies from one or two posts back without reading the conversation completely so it looks like i said im going to do something im not. Its like starting a book in the middle and forming an opinion about a character without taking the time to read the whole story. Seems some of the members are in such a rush to give their two cents and prove how smart they are that they don't realize how off topic they are, repeating previous advise and simply stating the obvious.

[Tim C.]

Are garter snakes native to Europe?

[guidofatherof5]

No.

[Stefan-A]

People are responding to quotes and replies from one or two posts back without reading the conversation completely so it looks like i said im going to do something im not.
So set them straight. You can't just go around dismissing entire posts consisting of multiple specific responses to multiple specific claims made by you, by claiming that the poster got something vague and undefined wrong. I asked you to be specific about what I had gotten wrong and you didn't so much as reply to that request.

For your information, I am prepared to do a complete chronological review of your posts and their relevance to the replies you've gotten from me. If necessary.

[Tim C.]

No. Then I will not be sending any to Europe. Thanks for the prompt reply

[Tim C.]

So set them straight. You can't just go around dismissing entire posts consisting of multiple specific responses to multiple specific claims made by you, by claiming that the poster got something vague and undefined wrong. I asked you to be specific about what I had gotten wrong and you didn't so much as reply to that request.

For your information, I am prepared to do a complete chronological review of your posts and their relevance to the replies you've gotten from me. If necessary.
Please do, then reread your post and you will find the comments or questions that im referring to.

[Stefan-A]

Please do, then reread your post and you will find the comments or questions that im referring to.
The comments you are referring to do not exist.

[Tim C.]

The comments you are referring to do not exist. What right do you have criticizing me for anything about a snake native to my country, In my opinion its you that is unethical for for keeping a snake that, if escaped, could impact your environment. Now explain to me how im wrong on that point.

[joeyjoe9876]

Ball pythons are not native to america, and neither are a lot of the herps that have been brought to this country. You're pretty much calling most reptile owners wrong by saying someone in europe shouldn't have garters because they aren't native.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

What right do you have criticizing me for anything about a snake native to my country, In my opinion its you that is unethical for for keeping a snake that, if escaped, could impact your environment. Now explain to me how im wrong on that point.marcianus aren't native to you'r area either.

[Stefan-A]

What right do you have criticizing me
It's an innate right, guaranteed by the constitutions of both our countries.


for anything about a snake native to my country
Several snakes, hybrids, not native to your area.


, In my opinion its you that is unethical for for keeping a snake that, if escaped, could impact your environment.
You're entitled to your opinion and as a matter of fact, I have no problem with you having it, assuming you actually have it. It's a valid concern and I do my utmost to prevent escapes from happening, primarily for that reason, and so far, I've been 100% successful.

You are talking about deliberately making it happen in your own case. See the difference?


Now explain to me how im wrong on that point.
Re-read your post and you will find the comments or questions that I am referring to.

[twgrosmick]

After following this thread today I feel as though we are wasting our time. Obviously this "kid" I would assume, only because any adult would actually see the repercussions of their future actions, has full intentions of releasing these in to the wild. Regardless of your thoughts of snakes in Europe I am sure that you have no idea what it takes to even ship to the UK. Have a good day and you and your cousin have a good time destroying the gene pool.

[Tim C.]

marcianus aren't native to you'r area either. Good point. It was bred in ohio, but that still doesnt make it ethical. Shame on all of us then. I guess when I raise the one female I can go between here and arizona without guilt.

[Stefan-A]

Good point. It was bred in ohio, but that still doesnt make it ethical. Shame on all of us then. I guess when I raise the one female I can go between here and arizona without guilt.
Still missing the point, I see.

[Tim C.]

After following this thread today I feel as though we are wasting our time. Obviously this "kid" I would assume, only because any adult would actually see the repercussions of their future actions, has full intentions of releasing these in to the wild. Regardless of your thoughts of snakes in Europe I am sure that you have no idea what it takes to even ship to the UK. Have a good day and you and your cousin have a good time destroying the gene pool. Where did I ever say I was GOING TO RELEASE THEM INTO THE WILD? I said I would before I killed them, I was speaking hypothetically, had you read the whole story you would have known that, back to my point about reading the entire post before making another uninformed comment. And where does it state that my cousin has anything to do with these snakes?

[Stefan-A]

Where did I ever say I was GOING TO RELEASE THEM INTO THE WILD? I said I would before I killed them, I was speaking hypothetically, had you read the whole story you would have known that, back to my point about reading the entire post before making another uninformed comment.
The point is, you don't have your priorities straight.

[Tim C.]

The point is, you don't have your priorities straight. Again another non constructive comment far removed from the topic. In my opinion you are an ineffective moderator only fueling hostility and I will be referring this post to the management and suggest they look into your previous posts. Im confident they will see a pattern.

[Stefan-A]

Again another non constructive comment far removed from topic. In my opinion you are an ineffective moderator only fueling hostility and I will be referring this post to the management and suggest they look into your previous posts. Im confident they will see a pattern.
How am I fuelling hostility? I've been trying to help you.

[Tim C.]

Making non constructive comments about my priorities when you don't even know me. Commenting on my priorities has nothing to do with snakes. You obviously have not followed the entire conversation but make uninformed comments based on others comments regarding quotes taken out of context.

[Tim C.]

Can anyone refer me to a good post on this site regarding proper shipping of a live snake?

[Stefan-A]

Making non constructive comments about my priorities when you don't even know me.
You've listed your priorities in regards to these snakes. In this thread.


Commenting on my priorities has nothing to do with snakes.
It has everything to do with these snakes, because of their nature.


You obviously have not followed the entire conversation
I've read it through 4-5 times, I find that accusation mildly amusing.


but make uninformed comments based on others comments
I'm quoting your exact words here in this thread. How do you figure you can get away with calling my comments "uninformed"?


regarding quotes taken out of context.
I've quoted your comments for reference. Your full comments are still where you left them. It is impossible to take any of it out of context, when the context can be found in black on white a couple of posts higher up.

[guidofatherof5]

YouTube has a lot of videos on shipping snakes.

[Invisible Snake]

Can anyone refer me to a good post on this site regarding proper shipping of a live snake?

Idk if there are any posts like that on here, but on youtube there are plenty of vids showing how to properly ship a live snake.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

hope it helps http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/11353-us-shipping-methods.html

[Tim C.]

You've listed your priorities in regards to these snakes. In this thread.


It has everything to do with these snakes, because of their nature.


I've read it through 4-5 times, I find that accusation mildly amusing.


I'm quoting your exact words here in this thread. How do you figure you can get away with calling my comments "uninformed"?


I've quoted your comments for reference. Your full comments are still where you left them. It is impossible to take any of it out of context, when the context can be found in black on white a couple of posts higher up.

Ok, your right, I'm wrong, you get the last word, management will either agree or disagree with my query. Its up to them to decide how effective your moderating skills are. Please don't reply to my post again unless you have some suggestions that have not been addressed regarding how to distribute these baby garters. Good day

[Tim C.]

hope it helps http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/11353-us-shipping-methods.html Thanks I found that one and admit i didnt read thru the entire post but im looking for a post that gives proper advise on packaging, when to/not to ship. etc. Would you happen to know who gives the best advice?

[Tim C.]

YouTube has a lot of videos on shipping snakes. thanks

[Tim C.]

Idk if there are any posts like that on here, but on youtube there are plenty of vids showing how to properly ship a live snake. thanks

[Stefan-A]

Ok, your right, I'm wrong, you get the last word, management will either agree or disagree with my query. Its up to them to decide how effective your moderating skills are.
Keep your threats to yourself.

[infernalis]

Again another non constructive comment far removed from the topic. In my opinion you are an ineffective moderator only fueling hostility and I will be referring this post to the management and suggest they look into your previous posts. Im confident they will see a pattern.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I strongly feel that you stand alone with it.