Making New Friends

[katach]

Today Bill and I had so much fun snake hunting with Lisa (lisa4john). We went to my favorite place for NW and found several slithering around. We caught 3 of them. One of them was a new born. Lisa bright home 2 males. I'll let her post the pics of her new kiddos.

[guidofatherof5]

That's great.

[setfree]

That's awsome! I wish I could find more around here!:D

[snake man]

good catching skills.

[Mommy2many]

Congratulations! Great herping fun.

[ProXimuS]

That sounds awesome:D

[Lisa4john]

Hi y'all! Thank you so much to Bill and Kat for helping get my beautiful new friends! I'm glad we met guys and hope we can get together again. :D The orange stripe is Sam, he is my son's. The other one is Turquoise (Turq) and he is mine, we love them already. They are so calm and sweet, I could never have had them without you guys and I'm so grateful to you for them. They amaze me. We couldn't get them salmon tonight, but offered them tilapia and they were not interested in it. We will try again soon. Anyway, here is a picture of them. More when and if I can. I was having a hard time uploading tonight. I was thinking about getting a baby, but after a lot of reading and thinking about it, I was scared off. I don't want to lose one because of my inexperience.


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[Lisa4john]

Here's a few more. :)

[Lisa4john]

When we were out this was one baby we found, and left him behind. He is the one that convinced me I'm not ready for a baby in my life, just too tiny and fragile, but such a cute lil worm. ;)

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[snake man]

Wow nice finds and you will have a great time with these little critters.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Wow! Those look real nice. I hope too add a few ordinoides to my collection in the future.

here's a few more. :)

[setfree]

Wow! Beautiful snakes! I like the pic of turq wrapped around the other one. Very cool.:D

[EasternGirl]

Great to make new friends for herping! Lovely snakies!

[Lisa4john]

Thanks all! :D I'm so pleased with them. They are so sweet. I really like them already... not like... love! They are settling in well. They love that tree Kat, they are always in it basting in the "sun", thanks. Haven't eaten yet, but hoping they will soon. Got them salmon today. I'm going to try it tomorrow.

Marnie, how's Cee Cee doing, does she forgive you yet? ;)

[katach]

I'm so glad they are settling in for you. I knew you would love them.

[Lisa4john]

Well, tried to offer the boys salmon this morning. The irresistible has been resisted. They had the food with them for over an hour, but no go. Sigh... Any ideas what to try next? Thanks.

[katach]

Buy a tub of night crawlers from walmart and just put the while tub in there. It could take a little while for then to eat. How are your temps?

[Lisa4john]

Honestly, I'm not sure, I do not have a good thermostat in it yet. I am going out soon to get that and a timer for the light and the worms.

[katach]

Sometimes they won't eat if the temps aren't just so. It's only been a few days though, so don't worry. Blade and Maria took a while to eat, we got then going with live guppies.

[lauwersp]

WOW... so great!

[lauwersp]

Is Salmon irresistible to garters? or just NW garters?

[Lisa4john]

I've read a lot of threads say that it is really liked by garters in general, but not for main diet because it is more fatty. It is a smelly fish thus enticing them more. These guys are new to me and have no interest in eating yet. I'm not worried yet, but would really like them to eat sooner than later. They are so sweet, and calm, I enjoy them very much already. Thanks, and hope it helps.

[guidofatherof5]

Is Salmon irresistible to garters? or just NW garters?

When I did feed it my garters loved it. Tilapia only now.

[snake man]

I have also fed yellowtail and got good results.

[Lisa4john]

Sometimes they won't eat if the temps aren't just so. It's only been a few days though, so don't worry. Blade and Maria took a while to eat, we got then going with live guppies.

Was it hard to convert them to fish filet and worms again after that? Guppies could get really expensive and more risky diet long term. We got the nightcrawlers last night, offered it to Sam, but he shrunk way, but yesterday was very tough on them though. Plan on letting them settle in to there new home today and tomorrow before I try food again.

[Lisa4john]

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before
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after

We were downstairs yesterday when we heard a slide, smash. :eek: We knew instantly what it was and raced upstairs to find the cage on the floor smashed and the cat no where to be found. He had gotten on top of the tank and leaped off pushing the tank off the shelf in the process. We were freaked and ticked at the cat, and so surprised because we never thought that could happen. The snakes were fine, and scared stiff still in their tree. I had to go get them a new tank which I didn't want to do until they came on sale, but whatcha gonna do. They really needed more room anyway, but NOT the way I wanted them to get it. Now they have the 20 long with the slide top. Sigh, the excitement begins... and hopefully ends here.

[Lisa4john]

Also, this tank seems to be too cool, but I'm not sure how to get it warmer for them. We keep our house pretty cool, as low as 62 degrees at night, but usually about 65. What kind of heat have you found steady and reliable without having to worry about them getting cooked? They have a heating pad under the tank in one corner and the lamp on a timer set for 7a-8p over that same corner. (just got the timer last night) I think I should put it on cardboard or something so it is not losing the heat so fast thru the bottom of the cage too. As you can see the new place they are set is an open shelf system. Would a small ceramic heater be a good idea? Thanks :)

[katach]

You could put a towel under the tank where the heat mat is. Definitely no on the ceramic heater, it gets way too hot and they are not safe. Night time ambient temps are fine, just during the day you want that temp gradient.

That is why I don't like cats, they are evil!

[Stefan-A]

You could put a towel under the tank where the heat mat is.
That sounds like a fire waiting to happen. Same thing with the cardboard.

[Invisible Snake]

You could put something like a flat piece of cardboard or a decent amount of newspaper inside the tank under the substrate and that will provide some insulation, just make sure that you cut the edges the exact same size of the tank floor so that the garters won't be able to get under it.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

If you are worried about them overheating get a thermostat their a life saver...literally:)

[Lisa4john]

My husband said to wrap the card board with aluminum foil, so we are going to try that. I don't know what else to do. The lamp is not enough, the pad is not enough, a ceramic heater may be too much heat, so I can only do so much. I want them to be safe and warm. We will find a way. Thanks

[guidofatherof5]

If you are worried about them overheating get a thermostat their a life saver...literally:)

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MTPRTC Digital Thermostat For Heat Mats: Patio, Lawn & Garden (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NZZG3S/ref=asc_df_B000NZZG3S2185801?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=dealt529069-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B000NZZG3S)

[Lisa4john]

Thanks Steve. I'll look into getting one of those. Then I can get a bigger pad, any brand pad better than another? The zoo med is what I have. They do not have very good reviews on Amazon...

[guidofatherof5]

When I used them I had good luck with zoo med.
I make my own with flex-watt heat tape.

[Lisa4john]

Anyone ever used the Fluker's pad? This pad says it will increase the heat 15-20 degrees. It is made to put out a steady 100 degrees. I would use the thermostat too, that seems too hot if they burrow over it. The small zoo med I'm using is only adding about 3 degrees difference to the warm side at night, and I have a day lamp over that side too, but there is only 6 degrees difference with the lamp on in the cool and warm side, is that normal to be such a small range? I'm surprised at how little it is helping, although I expected it to go down at night, I wasn't expecting it to be that close to the same with and without the lamp on. I now have our radiant heater in the room to warm the whole room to 75. At least that will help until I can get the other things I need for them. When we woke up it was 70 on the warm side and 67 on the cool. I have a 20L tank, 30x12x12. Which pad size would be ideal for that tank, the Fluker's comes in 11x6 and 11x11 for the smaller tanks? One says for 10 to 20 gal, the other for 20 to 30 gal. Sorry to keep coming back to this, it is just hard to figure out for this newbie on a budget. Thanks again. :)

[Lisa4john]

Yay! Turq ate a couple pieces of worm today, I didn't see it, but he had a LITTLE lump, and Sam didn't so... Anyway, we cut the worms into quarters and put them in a little water to keep them moist last night cuz they seemed afraid of the whole worm. They had 6 pieces last night, and some time this morning there were only 4 left in the dish. (My son drop half a worm down the drain... oops.) :D

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You can barely see that Turq is a bit bigger around... but not much. ;)

[ProXimuS]

They're very pretty:) The orange and blue looks good together(they're complimentary colors).


You can definitely tell who did and didn't eat;)

[jitami]

What a fun herping trip! I Love Turq, but they both look great! I wouldn't worry too much about heating at this point. 67 overnight is fine. When you can afford it, the thermostat that Steve recommended is awesome. It just takes all of the guess work and tinkering out of the equation. The small heat mat is likely fine for the 20L as well. I don't use extra heat for my garters and they seem to thrive. That said they absolutely love a basking lamp, so you're off to a good start there :) Just remember, especially as adults, these guys really are pretty hardy. Too cool is better than too warm, within reason of course :)

[Lisa4john]

What a fun herping trip! I Love Turq, but they both look great! I wouldn't worry too much about heating at this point. 67 overnight is fine. When you can afford it, the thermostat that Steve recommended is awesome. It just takes all of the guess work and tinkering out of the equation. The small heat mat is likely fine for the 20L as well. I don't use extra heat for my garters and they seem to thrive. That said they absolutely love a basking lamp, so you're off to a good start there :) Just remember, especially as adults, these guys really are pretty hardy. Too cool is better than too warm, within reason of course :)

Thank you, that helps. We are ordering a couple things for them to stay more comfortable, more easily. I finally put the radiant heater in the room and warmed it all up. Now it is 75 and 83, just turned off the heater for the night... tomorrow I will not turn it up quite so high. I'm aiming for 72 and 82-85ish. They seemed much happier today. They got up and explored for the first time. The rest of the time they have been just laying on the top of the tree, under the lamp trying to stay warm. We are getting there, I just wanna get there right now :rolleyes:... it's a patience thing, I'm working on it. ;)

[Lisa4john]

They're very pretty:) The orange and blue looks good together(they're complimentary colors).


You can definitely tell who did and didn't eat;)

Thank you, my dear! I really love them already. They are so sweet. I think they are brothers. If they are not, they are best friends, cuz Turq is very protective of Sam. When we try to get one out, the other just comes too if at all possible. If TJ is holding Sam and I am holding Turq and he brings Sam over they will wind all up together, it is so cool to watch. I'm so glad I have them together, they really seem to need each other. :)

[Lisa4john]

If you are worried about them overheating get a thermostat their a life saver...literally:)

Ya know, I saw that you said to get a thermostat, but I was not thinking of one hooked to the heating pad only, until the link from Steve (thanks, sometimes I'm a lil slow :rolleyes:). I was thinking, I have one in there, that's how I know it's cooler than they like... :o

[Lisa4john]

Well, Turq ate a whole nightcrawler today in front of me. I'm not sure if he or Sam ate the guppy and a half of a worm that was left in there for later, but they are gone too. I'm hoping Sam eats in front of me soon so I know he has eaten.

[katach]

Thanks for the update Lisa. I'm so glad you are enjoying them!

[Lisa4john]

I am, but I'm still concerned that Sam has not seemed to eat. I'm pretty sure Turq ate it all so far. Sam is still as skinny as ever. Sigh... He seems afraid of the food, alive or dead. I'm not sure what else to do for him. He might be wanting to shed, he is dull now, but his eyes are still clear. How long does it usually take them to shed?

[guidofatherof5]

From beginning to end it can take a few days to a couple weeks.

[Lisa4john]

YAY!!!! Sam finally ate a nightcrawler! I'm so relieved and happy. He is a great little guy. I was a little worried. Now, if I can't get them to eat anything else but the worms, will they be healthy? How can I convert them to tilapia or even a pinkie now and then too (I can't cut up pinkies... *shutters*)? I tried to scent it with the crawelers, and I cut the tilapia in long skinny strips kinda wormy-ish, but they were not impressed. But at least they are eating. Whoohoo!! :D

[guidofatherof5]

Will you cut up worms?

[snake man]

Always a good feeling when they eat.

[kueluck]

Happy to hear all are eating. And if you cut the pinkie up while frozen it's not bad at all, I just think about the welfare of my girls when doing so.

[Lisa4john]

Yes, I cut up worms. They eat them whole though, well, Turq does. I can't believe this, but when I went to change their water this morning I found the worm buried in the substrate under the water dish. :( I was so disappointed. He didn't eat after all. I don't know what else to do...

[Light of Dae]

Try putting him alone in a clear container with the worm(s) and a little water, close it up n leave him alone. No need for air holes he will not suffocate. He will either try and escape n wonder why he is in this little jail till he realizes he cannot get out n oh there is food in here... Im kinda hungry... NOM NOM. Or he'll sit in the corner(sulking) lol then realize he is alone with food and has no competition and it is all his... nom nom. OR He'll steadfast avoid the food.

Chance is though, he'll eat.

Oh and if the worm isn't moving enough to get his attention after awhile you can swish the worm from side to side in the container(This is why I use clear) I do this all the time for a few of my babies who WILL NOT eat if their food isn't moving. He isn't going to get motion sickness either, none of mine have. It works like a charm.

Figured I'd though in a picture so you know exactly what kinda container I mean....

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[Lisa4john]

Thank you, I appreciate your help. :)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I do this same method when feeding some of my picky wildcaughts, but sometimes i have to leave them in the continer for an hour or two and put them in a dark place so i make sure it is escape proof but i put air holes in mine in case i have to leave them in for awhile. I know it would take hours for a snake to suffocate but it makes me feel better to know the air holes are there.:)

[Lisa4john]

I have left him with food in their cage for a couple days, and all day with Turq in another container a couple times. He acts like he is afraid of the food still. I'm hoping this method works better. Thanks again. :)

[Lisa4john]

Sigh...Have you ever had a snake that cuddle with their worm? Well, I can't think of a better word for it. The worm was wound in and around the snake, and the snake did not show any signs of interest in eating him. At first they were at opposite corners and the worm actually came over to Sam and started crawling all over him. Sam looked at him a bit and then he wrapped around him and just laid there with the worm... So bizzare. He was in there for over 2 hours. I'm thinking he is not a worm eater, where to go from here? I don't know. Thinking about offering him a pinkie next.

[katach]

Try scenting with frog. If you need to borrow one let me know.

[Light of Dae]

live Guppies or Platys would be an option too.

[EasternGirl]

Lisa...just catching up with this thread. Good grief! That is really scary what happened with the tank. I am always worried that something will happen with one of the tubs I have quaratined snakes in. The tanks are safe from any cat thankfully. I'm so glad your snakes are okay. And no...Cee Cee is still being weird. She still wants to try to bite me all the time. Sadie, who used to want to bite me all the time is now over it and doesn't try to bite me anymore. Maybe they are taking turns. :D

[Lisa4john]

Kat, we might have to try that, thanks.

Light of Dae, we tried guppies, one got eaten (probably by Turq), the rest were left alone, and they were in there for 2 days. We may not have had enough in there though. We only had 3 at one time. Idk, it is a lil frustrating.

Marnie, yeah, it was scary. They are now on a wire shelf that the cat can not get on... Hopefully Cee Cee will mellow out again soon, was she always full of attitude or is this a new thing for her? Sadie will be a good example now and you will not have her turn on you again, I can feel it in my bones. :D

Thanks for trying to help y'all. He is just not interested in food yet, at least not tilapia, salmon, worms or guppies, hopefully I'll figure out what he likes to eat soon though, this is driving me nuts!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Have you tried putting him in the empty container withe slugs?

[Light of Dae]

Tried Pinkie mouse chunks yet? Tried hemostat/tong feeding?

[Lisa4john]

Good morning all. I tried yesterday to offer him a slug, and he seemed very interested, but the dang thing was just too big, they are huge around here. So I took a pinkie and scented it with the slug and left him with it for like 8 hours in an empty container, no go. I put the pinkie in the cage food dish hoping one of them would eat it last night and no go there either, it's still there. SIGH...

Yes, I have tried the tongs a few times, he is always backing up from it and acting afraid of it. I don't know how long to keep trying... :( I really don't want to lose him, we are quite attached to him, but I want what's best for him in the end. :'-(

[Lisa4john]

I was thinking, if I separated them and brumated Sam for awhile, but not Turq, do you think it would get Sam to eat? And would they be able to get back together and be best buds again? They are so close now, I'd rather he just eat without separating them, just another idea. If so, how long, how cold, I really want to help this lil guy succeed. Thanks

[Light of Dae]

Probably two or three weeks at 10-13'C should be about right...

Did you try just pinkie mouse chopped up? Some times the smell of the blood really works for them.

[Lisa4john]

I have not tried cutting a pinkie up yet, it really turns my stomach and I'd hate to have to always have to do that to get him to eat. My family would absolutely not help with that either. We have had pet rats, hamster and gerbils so to cut these things up really makes me heart sick too. I will have to try it with all the family gone if I can, and I don't know if he would even eat it then. We offered him one scented with slug and one scented with frog yesterday with no luck. Then I caught couple frogs where we caught them yesterday and offered them but that was rejected too, by both Sam and Turq. Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. He is just so stubborn. :confused: I put in some worms for Turq again today, but he was not interested again. I think I'll just leave him alone for a few days and try again after that.

[Lisa4john]

Ok, so I finally got the stomach to cut up a pinkie to offer to Sage/Sam, I didn't want to leave anything out I didn't try (all the family were gone to school/work). He was with it for over 2 hours, and I tried for probably 30 minutes with the tongs to encourage him to eat. He was not having it. I was hoping, and praying he would go for it, but not even that was enticing to him. At least it didn't go totally to waste... Sammi ate a few pieces of it today so I was happy for that. I have no place in the house that would be 45-55 degrees F to try to brumate him, has anyone used a small fridge dedicated to this set higher than normal use, of course? Any other ideas? Thanks again. :)

[Invisible Snake]

I believe Jeff has, this is a picture from his website, Garter Snake Morph (http://www.gartersnakemorph.com)

http://www.gartersnakemorph.com/images/refrig.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Hmm....Now where did I put the leftovers....?:p

[Lisa4john]

Thanks, I have done so much soul searching and pondering and praying about this. What it boils down to is this... Am I doing it for me or them? The answer I came up with is me. That is not the reason I should be doing it. I have grown to love these guys, they are beautiful and have taught me so much, but they are not mine. I wanted them to be, but the reality for me is, Sam won't eat, it's been over a month now, and who knows how long before that he ate last, and it is not best from HIM for me to keep trying. Turq is eating, but I don't want to separate them. They mean too much to me, and I feel it is best they stay together. I love them more than I want them. This is my last chance, I feel it is now that they need to go home, find their den and hunker down for the winter. I know that not all W/C will settle into domestic life well, and although they have never musked, bit, struck or shown any signs of aggression I think it is more cuz they are a sweet natured species than cuz they are settling into a happy life here with us. I am grateful for the time we have had with them and all that they have given me. Thanks again for all your advise and help and encouragement. I will be getting more someday soon. I love you Sam and Turq, God be with you and keep you safe. :'-(


I believe Jeff has, this is a picture from his website, Garter Snake Morph (http://www.gartersnakemorph.com)

http://www.gartersnakemorph.com/images/refrig.jpg

[chris-uk]

A wholly respectable decision Lisa. If you feel that they are not settling to captive life, and the weather and conditions are still good enough for you to release them where they were caught, then that's a completely unselfish thing to do. It's a sad decision to make, but much respect to you for making it.

Just to check - the weather should stay warm enough after you release them back for them to acclimatise, get their bearing and find their way to a den before it turns too cold? I got the sense from what you wrote that it is a case of release them now or it will be too close to winter.

[katach]

Your window is very short here Lisa. In the next few days or you'll have to brumate them yourself and release in the spring. I have a visitor that I'm in the same boat with only he is a yearling. It's a tough decision, but you are doing what is best for him.

[Lisa4john]

Hi again, yes they are gone. It was such a tough decision to make, especially Turq. I really connected with him more. I knew the window was closing very soon, Kat, I've been watching the weather too and saw that it was now or never. I know that the Lord will watch out for them, I truly feel it was the best thing to do for them. Sam couldn't get away fast enough, he was so ready to go, which actually made it easier. Turq wrapped up around my fingers to say goodbye and then when my son set him down he disappeared into the grass. However he was not as frantic to get away as Sam was. I will miss them greatly, but at least I have some pictures to remember them by. :'-)

Kat, we'll have to go out again some time, or get together for the kids to play. :)

[katach]

You did the best thing you could. You certainly gave it your all to make them happy and comfy. We will definitely have to get together soon. Brian was asking the other day if you guys could come over so he could play. My schedule is about to get crazy with the holidays coming I'll be going to 46hrs a week and black out for time off. We'll figure something out though.

[Lisa4john]

Thanks Kat. Boy does my heart ache. I so wish they would have been able to settle in... I'm sure they are doing a lot better than I am at this point. Sigh... Doing the best for them definitely wasn't the best for me, but I guess that's what we do for love sometimes.

Thanks y'all, for enabling me to have a place to mourn the loss of my snakes to me. I'm grateful. People around here just don't get it. Why are you so upset... It's just a snake, is the looks I get, ya know, that just doesn't help, they were dear to me. :( I'm hoping to get a new friend(s) asap to help fill the hole they left in me. Some lil beauty who will coil up around my fingers and look me in the eye, and feel safe and comfortable enough to EAT, that can fill the void Turq left behind; Sam was my son's so I didn't get the same attachment to him, and he started detaching awhile ago knowing we would probably need set him free, fortunate for him. Ok gone on long enough, sorry for rambling on like this. Thanks, and have a wonderful day.