HELP - Squib canibbalism

[lauwersp]

One of my squibs ate another. Aside from giving them more food (which will obviously be happening), what do I need to know about a situation like this... perhaps it was an accident...

I've also separated the offending snake.

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[EasternGirl]

Good Lord! He looks fat! I have no idea how he is going to digest that...that is scary. I have had my babies bite each other and steal food from one another's mouths...but they have never attempted to eat each other. I would start separating them during feeding. Do you have a vet you can call about the snake that has the other snake inside of him?

[guidofatherof5]

Are you absolutely positive this happened?
From what I've heard this is a dangerous situation for the offender.

[lauwersp]

I'm absolutely positive. I was looking at the tank and I saw he was HUGE. There is nothing else he could have eaten and unfortunately math tells me there is one fewer scrub. I DO separate them during feeding... and this event didn't occur during or right after feeding either. How much should 5 week old scrubs be eating...

I AM worried about the offender. While he/she is alive at the moment and pretty active, I'll be monitoring carefully during the day.

[Invisible Snake]

If the offender is an eastern, then most likely he will die. From what I understand, their stomachs are not designed for digesting other snakes.

You should start separating them or at least house them in smaller groups of 2 or 3 according to size. Also every time you feed them make sure you wash them down before putting them back in their enclosures.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news...but I don't know how the scrub can survive that. That is why I suggested calling a vet...not sure he or she could do anything though. I'm so sorry this happened. I fed my babies every day when they were first born...just a few bites of worms each. Small, frequent meals. After about a month, I started feeding them every other day...a little bit more food...but still, just a few bites...enough until I saw a little bulge in their tummies. After a few months...I moved feedings to every 3-4 days and I feed them a bit more now. I'd say they each eat maybe 10 little bites of worm....or the equivalent in fish or pinky. I agree that at this point, I would separate them. I'm not sure what is going on there. My eastern babies eat together and get food all over them...but they never try to eat each other. Very odd. Again...I'm so sorry this happened.

[lauwersp]

yea... small bits of silverside and worm. And they've seemed content. I just fed them not and they are ALL much more aggressive then they've ever been so far. It's like a switch got flipped. I haven't been feeding them daily though throughout the first month... more like every other day with one four day period (recently) without being home. I contemplated taking them with me over labor day, but I opted not to for two reasons... One, I didn't want to create a lot of stress. Two, it didn't seem like 4 days would be a big deal as sometimes they go weeks without eating (or was my understanding from things people have posted). Maybe that 4 day stretch flipped an aggressive eating switch.

I called a vet and they basically told me there was nothing I or them could do. They didn't profess much of interest in garters, so I may call another, but that snake is totally in there... I'm not sure how anyone could remove it.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

If this just happened within a day you can hold the snake upside down and gently massage starting with the bottom pushing the baby up towards the throat and make it regurge the other baby. If you don't get if out it will die. If you manage to get it out soak the live snake in a little water for a little while and give him a day or so before you offer any food to let his stomach settle after all this stress. As long as you get the other baby out he should be fine, but if you leave it in he will become lethargic and die. I hope this helps with the little fella. This is why i always rinse the scent off of my babies before i put them back in the cage with the others. Good luck and please keep us posted.

[lauwersp]

I guess I should clarify how I feed them. I have a big green tupperware container that they get fed in. I have never since day one fed them in the tank they "live" in. At the same time, I don't feed them individually but in groups of 4-5 and then try to individually feed anyone who didn't eat with their class. That's how I've kept the poor eaters isolated and how I have my one scrub isolated that won't eat at all right now. Good eaters have gone right back "home."

I just fed them all in the last hour... bigger worm and fish chunks most of them have eaten much more ravenously than before... they are all looking pretty stuffed except for 4 that ate but not a ton. I've separated them from the group. EVERYONE got a thorough dunking in water before going anywhere.

Here's the current tank breakdown (and the tank sizes).

Mama: in own tank (20 gal)

The scrub that's not eating: in own tank (10 gal)

The scrub that ate another: in a tupperware container by him/herself (4 gal?)

The 6 that ate a lot: in main tank that the scrubs have been living in (20 gal)

The 4 that ate but not a lot: in new tank (10 gal)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What you are doing seems fine. Are you going to try and make the snake regurge the other? If so you need to do it now.

[lauwersp]

Blue...

If you ever come to Detroit you have a beer or beverage of your choice waiting for you.

Regurgitation complete! As soon as I read your comment I wasted no time in starting. The little victim was, of course, dead, but I have high hopes for the offender who is still in solitary confinement. I will feed him/her tomorrow and work on a parole program for reintroduction into snake society.

I can't express enough thanks for helping me save at least one of the little guys.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That is great news!!! Keep in mind though that he's still not in the clear yet. I would put him in a container with very shallow water and let him soak for about 30 minutes to an hour.

[guidofatherof5]

That is great news!!! Keep in mind though that he's still not in the clear yet. I would put him in a container with very shallow water and let him soak for about 30 minutes to an hour.

Good advice Doc. Nice save Peter.

[chris-uk]

I'm shocked that this happened with Eastern siblings, but really pleased to read that you managed to stimulate the regurgitation. Was the poor victim much smaller? I can only imagine that it smelled of food which proved to be too much for the offender to resist.
I can't see anything that you've done wrong with the housing or feeding, I don't think anyone would have questioned keeping the scrubs together at this stage.

Fingers crossed for the surviving scrub, I hope that the regurgitation has saved it, but I wouldn't stop worrying about it until it has eaten again and pooed. Fingers crossed.

[lauwersp]

Let me know if you think this looks sufficient.

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[lauwersp]

Yes... I really am the offender here. I've been putting them back in the tank after eating not washing them at all... basically covered with worm and fish scent. I'm sorry little scrub...

It was a smaller scrub... probably the smallest... but the offender doesn't look like the LARGEST scrub... but probably on the larger side.

I'm going to think it's at least a positive sign that my little offender is VERY active in the prison bathhouse. I will not try to feed him/her until tomorrow. I'm willing to bet it happened this morning and not last night.

[lauwersp]

On the subject of washing...

Does washing mean dunking a couple times and releasing into the tank? or does it mean rubbing them underwater and/or wiping them with a paper towel afterward?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It might be just a little too deep either drain just a little or keep a close eye on it to make sure it can't drown. That is a great sign that he appears to very active and moving around. Don't beat your self up on this because i bet about 80% of garter snake keepers don't think to rinse the smell off after feeding and most of the time it would not be a problem but it does occur sometimes. It was an accident so just let it be a reminder to you to let the babies go for a little swim to clean themselves before putting them back in the cage.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have a small container with shallow water in it and once they get the food moved down to there stomach i just put them in and let them swim for a second and then i put them in the cage. It might not get all the scent off but it washes a lot of it off.
On the subject of washing...

Does washing mean dunking a couple times and releasing into the tank? or does it mean rubbing them underwater and/or wiping them with a paper towel afterward?

[lauwersp]

Is washing a practice for all garters that don't live alone after eating?

Little scrub is safe in that water... very active... head above water... constantly in view... nearing the end of bathtime.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The thing is when you feed these babies they are crawling around in worms, pinkies, and fish juice and they get it all over them so they smell like food. As far as adults goes it has happened before i think someone on here had it happen. If it smells like food if can happen it's just not as common unless one is way smaller.

[lauwersp]

Makes sense... it'll be a standard practice over here moving forward.

[lauwersp]

Thanks everyone for your help today

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Hey peter how is the little scrub acting now?

[lauwersp]

Very agitated actually... doesn't want me to pick him/her up which they usually don't mind at all... but very energetic.

All the other squibs that pigged out are FAT FAT FAT!!!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Just make sure not to over feed the little guys or it can be deadly too.

[lauwersp]

Well that's what I've been trying NOT to do... today I cut the worm and fish pieces a little bigger... up to half an inch... and I let them eat up to three pieces each... I was kinda panicked that I wasn't feeding them enough.

[Steveo]

The thing is when you feed these babies they are crawling around in worms, pinkies, and fish juice and they get it all over them so they smell like food. As far as adults goes it has happened before i think someone on here had it happen. If it smells like food if can happen it's just not as common unless one is way smaller.

I have seen mine get up close, face to face, and just stay there, tongues flicking, for 10-20 seconds before they realize they're not looking at food and one moves away. Since I feed them separately, I try to give each of them a dunk in the water dish when I put them back in the tank.

[lauwersp]

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[katach]

Washing is an excellent practice with all snakes that live communally, adult snakes too.

[thamneil]

This is sure weird. I like to give my adult snakes a quick mist with the spray bottle after feeding together. I find that this does a good job of breaking the feeding response.

I feed my babies together without any serious precautions. Definitely has its risks but that's always how I've done it.

[Stefan-A]

This is sure weird. I like to give my adult snakes a quick mist with the spray bottle after feeding together. I find that this does a good job of breaking the feeding response.
I occasionally do the same thing when I need to work with an enclosure where there's an especially hungry vagrans.

[Light of Dae]

So glad the little offender(has got to be his name now) is doing ok. AND that you are on this forum n was able to respond n get advice as soon as you did!
What would you have done without Thamnophis.com?

Oh and the picture with the full belly you just posted... looks about how fat mine are after feeding.
As for washing I normally just place them in their water dish n let them get out on their own. Works for me n all my 11 baby garters that live in two groups male n female (young enough I don't have to worry about breeding but they were sexed before shipping, this just makes it easier later n no oops'es)

[thamneil]

A little bit of water backs them right up!

[ProXimuS]

:eek:Oh my!:eek: I can't believe I'm reading this! (Especially with and Eastern, and a baby at that) I'm really glad to hear you were able to get hime to regurge, and seems to be doing fine. Keep us posted!

[Invisible Snake]

I will feed him/her tomorrow and work on a parole program for reintroduction into snake society.

Maybe wait at least 48 hours before feeding him since he just regurgitated.

[lauwersp]

Hey everyone.

I really AM glad I'm a member of this forum. You have all been really great and I love these little guys. I'll wait another day to try to feed although he really seems ok except for being all hyper when my hand get near him... maybe hanging him upside down and making him puke his guts out has scarred him.

I think "Little Offender" is going to be his name... it's all I'm calling him now anyway... I just still have a hard time telling them all apart from each other. As long as he's jailed it's obviously no problem... but I think the goal would be reintroduction to the group no?

Thanks again everyone!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Glad to hear that the little offender seems to be doing ok.

[MCwyo]

Glad things worked out OK for Little Offender. I just had this happen yesterday night. I've been doing group feeding up until now, but I'm going to switch to individual feeding from now on. The two scrubs decided to do battle over a piece of fish, and the looser was halfway down the winner's throat before I could reach in and separate them. Everyone involved is OK thank goodness. They are becomming more and more aggressive at mealtime it seems, maybe due to the time of year.

[Steveo]

MC, that happened to me as well. Stepped away for 3 minutes and had to pull one Eastern out of the other. I've found that separating for feeding doesn't take much longer because I just set them up where the cat can't get them, then return 30-60 minutes later and put them back in the tank. Beats standing there and watching for 20 or 30 minutes, waiting to see if everyone eats.

[EasternGirl]

I've been reading through this thread...and as I mentioned before...my babies all eat together and get food all over them and have never tried eating each other...so don't be so hard on yourself about not washing the babies off. It seems like one of those weird occurences to me. I understand that you want to be safe from now on though and take every precaution.

[lauwersp]

I don't leave them alone during feeding. I've had to unlatch heads a number of times already. It is weird... their aggressiveness seemed to have jumped overnight.

Thanks Marnie... I'm not beating myself up... it just shows why all of you guys are such good breeders... you know this stuff and your snakes are nicely safe from it. I'm certainly becoming a better snake papa and hopefully no other scrubs suffer as I learn what I need to along the way. I love these guys and I'm looking forward to getting a small variety of different garters.

[guidofatherof5]

Keeping garters will always be filled with happiness and the sadness that comes along.
There is so much we don't know about them. It's the unexplained deaths that are the hardest to take.
Working with a snake on one day and the very next day it's gone. No rhyme or reason for it.
I hate the unexplained deaths.

[Light of Dae]

Very poetic Steve.

[lauwersp]

Yea Steve... I will say I feel really lucky to have a group like this that I can count on for good information... While I feel like I was kinda the cause of the death of that little scrub... I also feel like I'm providing safety, food, and shelter to all the other lil guys who would be always fighting for their life in the wild.

[lauwersp]

Well Little Offender had NO problem eating a hunk of silverside this morning. Yum.

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[guidofatherof5]

I think you have a little character there Peter.
The adventures have just begun I fear. It's a good think though.:D

[lauwersp]

Steve... they ALL seem like little characters. I'm looking forward to raising them. I still am keeping Little Offender isolated although I suspect he would be just fine with the others. They are all getting good dunkings before going back in the tank with full bellies.

[Spankenstyne]

Also keep "offender" on a lighter feeding schedule for the next week or so. It might seem to go against your instinct to keep him full to avoid him eating another sibling but after a regurge they need time to rebuild the stomach acids.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Any recent news on the little offender?