New babies, with still borns

[taharial]

Hi All!

I'm new to garter snakes. I found one that had an injury and was going to release it in a few days after I fed it. It shed twice since I found it, and looked heathy. Apparently it is a she, since she just had babies 15 minutes ago... WOW that was cool! I looked in the tank, and I thought she was pooping an orange sac... then came four babies.

Looking for a little help, one of the four started slithering around, the other three have not moved. I reached in the tank, and they are still warm. One is still in what looks like a thick caul/amniotic sac, and the other two are just laying there... One had it's mandible bent backwards, so I moved it and tried to put in a more natural position. What should I do to help them?

Sorry, did a quick google search and found this page, and wanted to get the question out before it is too late to help the little ones, they are so dang cute. I'll look around the page for info too.
Thanks!

[katach]

How are they right now?

[taharial]

One was moving a little, but did not make it. I tried helping the one in the amniotic sac, but while it was developing it's mouth was open, and was completely clamped around it's mid abdomen and what looks like the yolk sack... =( Sigh...

New question, I though mom was done giving birth, and got the mouse out of the tank... Now she is moving around, and it looks like she might have one more in her. Is this hazordous for her, or the unborn?

[katach]

Could be. 4 would be a pretty small clutch. Pictures would be helpful. Where are you located? If you are in the NW it could be an ordinoides that used old sperm that wasn't as viable as it used to be, thus the poor litter quality. More info would definitely be helpful though.Location state and county, tank size and contents, and pics. Welcome to the best forum on the web.

[Steveo]

She may not be done. I had a snake give birth to 1... and then 48 hours later, 14 more.

Are you talking about a live mouse? I wouldn't put a live one in. A dead one would be ok but if she won't eat it there's no point in leaving it there.

Stillborn babies are not uncommon. I don't think anyone knows why it happens so often, but some are just not fully developed. The ones that need help getting out of the sac usually don't survive anyway; it's their first test of strength.

Realistically, there's not much that can be done to help the weak ones. Move the healthy babies somewhere safe that they can't escape from and give a little water (not enough that they could fall into and drown; it happens). Start them on cut up pieces of fish or nightcrawler but monitor for food fights. It may take a week or two to get them all eating and that's pretty normal.

There's a care sheet around here somewhere that gives a good overview.

[taharial]

She is kinda small, but maybe it just seems that way since her tail is blunted. We are in San Mateo County, CA so I thought she was a SF or Coast Garter... She's just been in a 10 gallon tank since I was planning to release her once her wound healed. The only thing she will eat is live mice. She wouldn't touch the slug, spider, or fish I put in.

Looks like I have her and the baby a while until the baby is big enough to release. Should I separate them? I have some guppy fry I'll try feeding the little one.

Thanks for the help and info. =)

[katach]

Good news for you it's not San Fran. Those are federally protected and illegal to even touch let alone have in your home. I'm going to take a guess and say she is a beautiful example of a Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi. Keep the baby warm, but not hot and on some most paper towels. Did the baby get their entire birth shed off? Be patient about them eating. Adult snakes take time to settle in and babies take time for their feeding switch to turn on. Their belly is full of yolk right now. For the baby offer foods like chopped night crawler or bits of talapia every other day until it eats, then offer small meals just enough to see a buldge in the belly every 1-2 days. They won't eat the spider so you can ditch that. Insects are not on their diet, as they can't digest the exoskeleton.I would suggest a vitamin/calcium powder to sprinkle on the food once a week until you have them on a well rounded diet with good variety.If you have any questions at all please ask, that is why we are here. Good luck and congrats!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Looks like a very nice red coast garter!

[guidofatherof5]

She is kinda small, but maybe it just seems that way since her tail is blunted. We are in San Mateo County, CA so I thought she was a SF or Coast Garter... She's just been in a 10 gallon tank since I was planning to release her once her wound healed. The only thing she will eat is live mice. She wouldn't touch the slug, spider, or fish I put in.

Looks like I have her and the baby a while until the baby is big enough to release. Should I separate them? I have some guppy fry I'll try feeding the little one.

Thanks for the help and info. =)

Please explain "live mice"
The care sheet is always a good read.
Garters eat no bugs.
Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

[Invisible Snake]

Congrats on the baby! You should separate the baby from the mom.

[EasternGirl]

If you just found her...and if she has just given birth...she may not want to eat for a while...she may need to adjust to captivity and many snakes don't eat during delivery or right after. Sorry about the stillborns...it sucks, I know, but it does happen often. I wouldn't use live mice...give her time and she will start eating. Offer nightcrawlers, fish fillet (from the safe fish list on the caresheet) or frozen/thawed pinkies.

[Light of Dae]

Looks like a red Radix. Not Fitchi, no way. I haven't seen enough coast garters... But looks like one of Steves beautiful red plains garters!

Radix have the best attitude n are just awesome snakes!

More pictures!!!!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

HERE IS A PIC OF A RED PHASE COAST GARTER.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuWX3_YblkKgSG1sUuKZbp2LAOlJaPZ dpaafGSfRHD1b5NlMKzUA&t=1

[Stefan-A]

Thamnophis elegans terrestris. No question about it. It's not a T. sirtalis fitchi and definitely not a T. radix.

[jitami]

Gorgeous girl! You're probably ok releasing her and the baby back where you found her. Since you do plan on releasing her I'm personally ok with her eating live mice, but nothing bigger than a pinky or fuzzy... they're pretty harmless and she should take one eagerly. I'm also in Northern California, though, and for whatever reason none of my adult garters have eaten this week or last, so I wouldn't worry if she doesn't eat for you. You can go ahead and let her go and she'll be fine. If you do want to try frozen/thawed mice, after it's thawed poke a hole near it's brain and let a little of the goo ooze out.... I know, gross. That should get her attention, though. She may prefer fish, but I would be hesitant to offer her commercial feeder fish before releasing her. They're not bred/shipped/stored in the most sanitary conditions. If you've raised the guppy fry I'm sure the baby will love them... if they're commercially raised as feeders I'd again be reluctant to give them to the baby. Though I completely understand you wanting to be kind and making sure it has a full belly before release, it's really not necessary. Mom would have had it where she was caught and it would be off finding it's own food...

[jitami]

Had another thought overnight... depending on where you caught her she may very well have been mainly feeding on amphibians. Amphibians are known to carry high parasite loads, though, so I wouldn't try to replicate her natural diet. I'm still thinking releasing her is the best bet unless you really want a new pet... and then I'd still suggest releasing her and keeping the baby :)

[taharial]

Thanks for all the help and advice, I really appreciate it!

Live mice... He shows up at the 9 min mark... Birth of Garter Snakes - YouTube (http://youtu.be/CGcgR70-QJg) He was a fuzzy when I got him, grew quite a bit over 2 weeks! I dumped oats in for him to eat, and he munched on the plant, and dug it up eating the roots. =/

Baby is doing well, I'm going to feed him a guppy or nightcrawler bits tomorrow. I'm guessing Mom came out of the ivy we have at the condos, they cut it in April, so I'm guessing her food source (mice) disappeared when they did that. We don't have any frogs or amphibious creatures around here... I have never seen earthworms come up with the rain either, but maybe we don't get enough rain for that. I bought a pinky just for size comparison to the baby (wow) and the mom ate it within a minute.

So my new concern is, being fed in captivity, do you think the baby would know how to hunt and find food in the wild if I release it? I'm kinda torn, he is so dang gorgeous!

[ProXimuS]

So my new concern is, being fed in captivity, do you think the baby would know how to hunt and find food in the wild if I release it?

I don't think thats anything to worry about. It's hardwired into them to know what to do,

As far as the mouse goes, if the snake doesn't eat the mouse, it's best not to leave it in with the snake. From what I understand mice/rats will sometimes start chewing on the snake. I would leave it out of the cage and try it after a few days or so. Or maybe stick to the the pinkies, if she seems to like them.

[guidofatherof5]

Never leave mice unattended with a snake. The prey can very easily become the hunter.
Never leave mice alone with a snake.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...that is the biggest concern with feeding live prey to garters. The prey often becomes the predator. Because many garters are smaller and do not have fangs, venom, or the ability to constrict and control prey like some of the larger snakes...the mouse will often fight back and hurt the garter.

[Invisible Snake]

Lol, why would you put the live mouse in while the garter snake was giving birth?

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...that is a bit odd.

[jitami]

Hmmm, now that we've got the live mice thing out of the way (yeah, you definitely need to move it to it's own container and/or find someone with a bigger snake or someone who wants it as a pet). You found mom near your condo? I may have to retract my previous statement about releasing her. Is there a 'wild' area nearby? Greenbelt? Creek? Anything resembling nature? lol It would have to be in fairly close proximity, though. I worry about what kinds of pesticides they're using around the condos, in addition to threat by humans (mowers, weed wackers, dogs, etc.). Hmmm... and you've had her since May? What are your thoughts on keeping her vs. releasing her at this point? I can't be more than a couple of hours away, please let me know if you need help with anything.

[taharial]

Honestly, I didn't know she would be giving birth! She had them two days before I was going to return her to the outdoors... and being that I was going to release her I wasn't going to spring for a mouse set up... I just dumped a bunch of oats in the tank near the hole the mouse dug out and stayed in. There are no mice in there now. (Thanks.) She is a wild snake, and I wanted to keep her conditions as close to natural as possible before releasing her again, including food. I worry about the pesticides too, they just sprayed here, and the creek (puddle) behind the condos is constantly sprayed with rat poison. We have a lake nearby that is less than a ten minute drive. Her only human threats will be trail bikes and hikers. They don't even clear the poison oak out of the area. If she is still gravid, I'll keep her until she has the rest, if not she will be out there next weekend.

[jitami]

Sounds like a plan. I know you're trying to do the right thing for her and the baby and I appreciate that.

[snake man]

What exactaly do you have planned for the babies?

[taharial]

I'm going to keep the baby, It's just too cute. LOL, scrub's name is Spica.

And it looks like Mom is staying for a while also, she has a few more in her. I'll start a new thread.

[Invisible Snake]

How is the baby and mom doing?

[Light of Dae]

So happy your keeping the baby!

[taharial]

They are doing well. =)
LOL, I think I need a bigger house for all these tanks... Or a better set up.