Strange Dark Patch of Skin

[guidofatherof5]

The other day I noticed this unusual looking dark patch on one of my female T.radixes.
It isn't swollen and doesn't have any discharge. It is tender to the touch as she pulls away from contact with that area.
The scales even look different in that area.
It isn't a burn or a pressure wound. If you look closely on the dorsal you can see it appears to involve the skin more then anything.
I treated the area with a small amount of Silver Sulfadiazine but am not sure if that's the way to go.
Her attitude is normal along with her habits.
Any thoughts would be great.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch2.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch1.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Wow...my first guess would be a burn...or some sort of friction burn. Could she have rubbed it up against something rough? Maybe the area was itchy and she was rubbing it repeatedly against something? Either that or something is going on under the scales. I might try some antibiotic ointment.

[chris-uk]

What are the edges of the scales like? At first glance it looks similar to Adora's skin when she reacted to the anto-inflammatory injections. The edges of her scales crinkled and then the scales dropped off and a big scab formed over the top.
If there's no chance of an injury I'd suggest a fungal infection?
I'm assuming you already isolated her in case it's something contagious.

[guidofatherof5]

What are the edges of the scales like? At first glance it looks similar to Adora's skin when she reacted to the anto-inflammatory injections. The edges of her scales crinkled and then the scales dropped off and a big scab formed over the top.
If there's no chance of an injury I'd suggest a fungal infection?
I'm assuming you already isolated her in case it's something contagious.

Yes. She's not happy to be alone and in a tub.

I'll have to bust out the macro lens and get a few more photos.

[EasternGirl]

Fungal infection...I did not think of that. Perhaps a call to the vet would be an idea? I know you have a good relationship with your vet. Maybe you could just bounce some ideas off of him.

[guidofatherof5]

Fungal infection...I did not think of that. Perhaps a call to the vet would be an idea? I know you have a good relationship with your vet. Maybe you could just bounce some ideas off of him.

I know he would probably like to see this and money is tight right now. It's worth a call anyway. Thanks Marnie.

[katach]

If there is no injury, my thought was a possible fungal infection as well. Does she soak a lot?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

You can buy anti fungal ointment for reptiles.

[jitami]

Good luck with her, Steve. It is curious.

[ProXimuS]

I don't have any experience with reptiles injuries or anything, but my first thought(if it's not a burn or scrape)was possible fungal infection:confused: Good luck, and keep us posted!

[chris-uk]

If it is fungal, the question is what is the underlying cause? They should be fighting off that sort of infection themselves, so has something weakened her immune system or is there another problem which allowed the fungi to get a hold?
Obviously if it's not a fungal infection the question is still, what is it?

I lost a rainbow fish yesterday to a fungal infection, all the others look fine, so I'm assuming she had some condition which allowed the fungi to take hold on her quickly. Sounds bad, but all I thought with her was "I'm glad it's not one of the snakes".

I hope you track down the cause soon. If you do decide to treat the area with an antifungal a lot of them are antibacterial too, I'm wondering if you could use some of the aquatic treatments on a snake's skin (off the top of my head, gentian violet has antifungal and antibacterial properties).

[guidofatherof5]

Here are those macro photos I promised.
I am treating with betadine at this time but will stop that. I'm going to back off and allow her to shed to see what happens.
In these macros you can see that something has happened to the scales almost like a heat or chemical burn.
I rule these out as she can't contact the heat source and has no contact with any chemicals.
I've checked my lights and rule them out(not hot) Also the location of this patch rules out a heat injury since I use belly heat. She would have had to turn on her side to create this injury.
This makes me lean towards a granular cell tumor. I will not have a biopsy done as I don't want to make things worse.
I had a biopsy done on Nova and those area have become much worse(in size) even thought they are benign. If it is a cancer there is no treatment. If it is a tumor I hope it is benign.
Once again, I welcome all questions and input.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro2.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro7.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro6.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro5.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro3.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

Was this snake wild caught? And have you had her for a long time?

I ask this because maybe it happened in the wild before she was in your care and the symptoms just started appearing?

[guidofatherof5]

Was this snake wild caught? And have you had her for a long time?

I ask this because maybe it happened in the wild before she was in your care and the symptoms just started appearing?

Good question but she(W/C) has been with me for over 2 years. This is something new.

[snake man]

I hope she is ok.

[katach]

This is very interesting. Is there a way to test her shed skin for any type of infection or to take it to your vet for a look under the microscope?

[ProXimuS]

Random thought: Can/do snakes have allergies? Food related or environmental?

[guidofatherof5]

This is very interesting. Is there a way to test her shed skin for any type of infection or to take it to your vet for a look under the microscope?

Good thought Kat. Steve Schmidt suggested having a scraping done for a look under the microscope.

[ProXimuS]

Reptile Skin Basics (http://www.anapsid.org/basicdermatology.html)
Came across this link. You can scroll down a little to where it says "Infections." Seems like the only thing that fits is bacterial/fungal infection where it says "Discoloration."(Not that this site has the only possible options.) Also if you scroll down a little more there are some links to other health conditions and one says "Black Spots" and "Blackening Skin/Blackening Skin Syndrome/Vesicular Dermatitis." It seems like those two are the same thing(?) and possibly only affect Iguanas. At least they were only mentioning Iguanas.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting.

[jitami]

I'm leaning toward skin/scale scrape as well. Thanks for the macro pics. It really is bizarre looking..

[EasternGirl]

Good link Emily. It's amazing how much it does look like a burn of some sort. I looked in my snake ailments book to try to find something under skin disorders...nothing useful there. The only pics I could find that looked anything like what your snake is presenting were burns. I think at this point, the skin scraping would be the best way to try to figure out what is going on. Keep us posted.

[guidofatherof5]

Things have not gotten any worse for this girl. Still waiting for her to go opaque. Hoping this area will disappear with the old shed.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm still waiting on this female to shed(not in sight). This strange patch has dried out and feels like a scab now. It's even constricted the skin at that location. You can see that the lateral stripe has been pulled toward the dorsal stripe. This makes me think this is a physical injury/burn of some kind.
I have no idea where this injury could have occurred and it continues to be a mystery. The next shed will hopefully show that it is healing and repairing itself.
The snakes attitude is good and she is active and eating well.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch3.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Hope it's not too serious

[guidofatherof5]

Took a few more macros of this strange patch injury.
Still waiting for this girl to shed. Been feeding her a little more then normal. Hoping a shed will be forthcoming.
This thing is such a mystery.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro9.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro10.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro11.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro12.jpg

[chris-uk]

Still looks like a burn or a chemical burn to me.

Nice macro shots.

[guidofatherof5]

Still looks like a burn or a chemical burn to me.

Nice macro shots.

Thanks for the compliment Chris. They better be at the price I paid for that Canon EF lens.
I agree but can't find anything to prove it out. Nothing to get burned on and no chemicals used on or around the snakes. She has never escaped or been out of the enclosure since she came to the Ranch as a wild caught girl (from my back yard).

[guidofatherof5]

She is finally heading into opaque(shedding) phase. I hope to see some improvements in this area.

[RedSidedSPR]

If its a burn, where would it have happened?? Heat lamp?

[guidofatherof5]

There is no way for it to happen. That's the mystery.

[guidofatherof5]

Not sure what shedding did for identifying this problem. Most of the crusty, scab like material is off now.
What remains is still a dark area. It will be interesting to see if it develops outwardly again.
I have a call into a local college with a biology dept. I'm hoping they can slice me some nice samples to view under my microscope.
Here is a macro from the area after the shed.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/medium/strange_patch_macro14.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Strange still...I hope everything keeps going ok with her!

[d_virginiana]

Yikes! Hope she keeps doing fine. That is so weird looking...

[thamneil]

Very strange indeed. Is it just me or have the scales become more deformed after the shedding?

[guidofatherof5]

Very strange indeed. Is it just me or have the scales become more deformed after the shedding?

I would say they are the same as this problem was detected.

[guidofatherof5]

This radix is opaque again. I will try to get some pre and post photos up on the forum.
I tried treating the area with some F10 ointment(Thanks Chris-UK) but it had no effect.
Once she sheds I will try the F10 on the fresh strange dark patch again.
I still have no answer to what this is.

F10 Biocare - Product Information (http://www.meadowsanimalhealthcare.co.uk/new%20f10/new%20f10/ointment.html)

[Selkielass]

Interesting ointment.
I feel better about this sort of substance in an ointment than I did as a vaporized inhalant.
I hope she shows improvement, and im looking forward to your updates.

[guidofatherof5]

Things are not looking good for this girl. Since her last shed she has dropped a noticeable amount of weight and has developed a swollen area below her heart.
If I had to guess I would say she has cancer and is not long for this world. I will keep everyone posted but I don't see her lasting 2 weeks. I will probably have to euthanize her at some point.
I hate this part of keeping these fine snakes.:mad:

[Lowfur]

Poor girl! I was going to say maybe a tumor, like melanoma in humans?

[d_virginiana]

Sorry to hear that :( Does the swollen area feel like a tumor or fluid in the chest?

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear that :( Does the swollen area feel like a tumor or fluid in the chest?

Haven't felt it yet. Looks like other tumors I've seen.

[chris-uk]

I hate this part of keeping these fine snakes.:mad:

When you keep as many as you do its an unfortunate reality. :(
The signs aren't looking good for this one. Weight loss and abnormal swelling, could be cancer. Not much you can do to treat it if it*is.

[guidofatherof5]

It's time to close this thread out. Her weight loss was terrible at the end. She passed comfortably in the bottom of my snake room fridge. 24 hours of cold was all it took.
Wish I could have helped her more.

[Foxrun402]

:( I'm sorry to hear this... Hope you're doing ok

[gregmonsta]

Sorry for the loss Steve.

[mikem]

Sorry to here this. She had the best care anyone could provide.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks Mike.