Elderly Snakes, Care and Unique Health Issues

[katach]

I was talking with Steve on the phone today and he suggested I start this thread for aging snakes. Please feel free to share your own stories and photos. It would be appreciated if this thread could stay focused on aging/elderly snakes and the special care they require, please and thank you.


My beautiful red striped NW (T. ordinoides), Blade seems to be older than I had thought. She has developed what we think is arthritis. She has a lump on her spine and this kink in her tail. We have started massaging her tail and giving her warm baths to help. She is still a BIG pig when it comes to food, and otherwise just as active.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg525/scaled.php?server=525&filename=dsc03624w.jpg&res=landing
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg846/scaled.php?server=846&filename=dsc03626a.jpg&res=landing

[guidofatherof5]

T.L.C. for the aged ones. A warm bath probably feels pretty good to the old girl.
The kink in the tail wasn't what I pictured. Could just be an old injury site.

[katach]

She has never been injured with us, but she could have been in the wild. Good thought. I know my arthritis acts up in old injury spots first.

[chris-uk]

Do old snakes slow down (like old cats and dogs)? So would housing them with younger, more active snakes be a good or bad thing?
None of mine are getting old yet (we don't know how old Adora Belle is, I think she could be around 4-5 years old), but it's a thread that will be useful in years to come, and thinking ahead... should I plan a geriatric viv at some point?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Do old snakes need special care with food or can they be fed the same things as youngsters?

[guidofatherof5]

Do old snakes need special care with food or can they be fed the same things as youngsters?

I've never changed any food items because a snake was aged.
They usually get more one-on-one interaction and an extra treat though.;)

[Invisible Snake]

Do old snakes slow down (like old cats and dogs)? So would housing them with younger, more active snakes be a good or bad thing?

Old snakes tend to be less active and housing them with young snakes would cause them stress.

[chris-uk]

I've never changed any food items because a snake was aged.
They usually get more one-on-one interaction and an extra treat though.;)

It's good to know I won't have to start blending pinkies when Adora's teeth fall out. That's a flippant way of asking whether old snakes have dental problems. :)

[EasternGirl]

I honestly have no idea how old Cee Cee is. I am guessing because she gave birth in April and is still pretty active that she is no older than 4-5 years. But I have no idea. It is going to be tough to determine with some of my WC snakes. At what age would a garter be considered elderly?

[guidofatherof5]

It's good to know I won't have to start blending pinkies when Adora's teeth fall out. That's a flippant way of asking whether old snakes have dental problems. :)

Or giving it a good pre-chew before feeding:eek::D http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/vomit.gif

[taharial]

Hey Kat, just wondering how your girl is doing. Our girl developed a similar kink after giving birth to her last two still borns, right at her cloaca...

[jaleely]

These are good questions. I hope they all get answered!

And Kat i think it's good advice to soak the old ones. aww, i know i'm fairly young but i have all kinds of issues and warmth helps.

No pre-chewed food for snakes, please LOL

I only have experience with older snakes with a ball python, and he is slow and sleeps a lot, and may be older than i thought originally.

How old is "old" for a garter, good question!

[ConcinusMan]

No pre-chewed food for snakes, please LOL

What's the problem? It's not hard. You just take a night crawler and... http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/eating-with-chopstick-smiley-emoticon.gif

[d_virginiana]

My oldest snake is 12 years old, and has some of the same issues. He has a couple arthritis lumps on his spine, but they don't seem to bother him. He's actually more active than my younger snakes. I guess he's calmed down a LITTLE though. He used to be so energetic it was hard to hold onto him.

How common are vision problems in older snakes? Houdini went blind over the span of about a year between 10-11 years old. At this point can't even detect light/dark. He eats normal food again now, but when I was teaching him how to eat blind, he did get geriatric garter mush :D He could smell mashed pinkies much better, and I would lay his head in the dish and let him go nuts. No we have a system where I can tap any whole food item on his side and he just opens his mouth and lets me put it in there.

One major thing I've noticed is that it's difficult to keep his weight up. To keep him at a good weight I have to feed him two or three full meals a week. If I wait a week between big feedings for him, he starts to lose weight and his skin gets extremely dry and loose very quickly.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like some pretty typical aged snake or just aged issues.
The weight issue is a huge concern. I've seen it happen many times on elderly snakes. At some point no amount of food could keep the weight up. I certainly hope it's different for you. In any event all you can do is keep shoveling the food into the old furnace, so to speak.
Love to see some photos of the old codger.

[d_virginiana]

This is his most recent glamour shot :) Actually a good one for showing his cataracts too; this is the reason I'm so paranoid about retained eyecaps on him. The red on the edge of his eye isn't actually there, that's the flash interacting with my frog's red-light.
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So far I'm not too worried about his weight. Right now, it's more like he's extra sensitive to not being fed than not being able to keep his weight up.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good. Any chance you can post an under tail shot, I'm curious.

[d_virginiana]

I'm curious.
About what?

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[guidofatherof5]

Looking at the photo in post #16 I thought I saw some female characteristics in the head.
Any chance to get a couple photos more focused with the tail hanging down? Please.

[d_virginiana]

My camera died while uploading those last ones, but I can get them up by tomorrow.
I think it may be that he has some loose skin in his neck area that was getting flattened out pressing against my hand. His overall behavior and size point to male though; he's right at 23 inches, and constantly moving. Plus he goes nuts every spring (or whenever he gets to have a play date with Harley). Last time he ended up trying to court his own tail after she crawled away. :D

This is one I uploaded with the others earlier with his head held more naturally.
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Of course, I'm pretty horrible at sexing reptiles. Houdini wouldn't be the first one I've gotten confused :rolleyes:

[d_virginiana]

Okay, not sure why that other picture is attached down there...

[gregmonsta]

Things I have encountered with ageing snakes are shedding problems and tumors. Spazz became a terrible 'shedder' in the last year or two of his life - requiring assistance 99% of the time.
With 'Lumpy' the checkered (heading for 14 years old) I have a tumor on his neck which I'm actually just going to leave alone. Age is a factor but inbreeding could also be a contributor (he has very 'buggy' eyes).

[ConcinusMan]

Older snakes (like people) become more vulnerable to respiratory infections /pneumonia, particularly females that are allowed to become gravid.

[d_virginiana]

What does the tumor feel like? Solid, fluid? Just curious.

[guidofatherof5]

Yes and yes.

[Invisible Snake]

At what age should females be retired from breeding?

[ConcinusMan]

When they start throwing a lot of slugs, still borns, deformities, etc. is what I suggest. Also consider how fast they recover and fill back out after giving birth. If recovery of body mass starts taking a long time, I would stop breeding them. They'll usually be fully grown by then, like, maximum size for their species, and will only shed 2-3 times a year. That's when you know your snake is getting old.

When to stop breeding is really your call. You'll just know when it's time.

On a side note, some people say 10 is old, some say 13 or so is maximum age but I had a male concinnus that lived to be 18, and a female that lived to be 21.

[gregmonsta]

What does the tumor feel like? Solid, fluid? Just curious. Solid and seemingly fixed.

[d_virginiana]

On a side note, some people say 10 is old, some say 13 or so is maximum age

I read somewhere where the average in captivity was about 8. That just seemed really young to me.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not really young and that's just an average. Sounds about right. But really you should get over 10 years I would think. That doesn't mean we will though, and that's the reason for the low average.

[d_virginiana]

I imagine it's probably lower for breeding females than for males too...

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about that, but over breeding probably reduces life span. I only bred that pair 3 times. The female still lived longer than the male. (male 18, female 21)

[katach]

Quick update on Blade. She seems be shedding quite often. She gets very active around 7pm every night. Maybe a little sun downers syndrome. Still eating and pooping. She gets very into get water these days too.
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[Selkielass]

Lovely color on that Blade.
My only old snake is Cranky, and I have no idea how old he actually is- he turned up full sized(huge for a male butler at 20 inches), battle scarred and with several injuries and infections. Since recovering from those injuries he's shown no other signs of age aside from a stubborn crotchetiness ess that will probably never go away- he doesn't like people. He isn't afraid of them, and tolerates the servants presence, but as soon as they begin to take 'liberties' or attempt unacceptable familiarities, he 'stomps' off in a huff with a sharp whip of his tail.
He's a cast iron codger.

[katach]

Blade is sweety. She lives to be held. She like kisses and will be more than happy to just curl up on my glasses for hours.

[ConcinusMan]

Quick update on Blade. She seems be shedding quite often. She gets very active around 7pm every night. Maybe a little sun downers syndrome.

Maybe too warm also. Snakes that get a significant drop in temperature at night as they should, tend to be out and basking/active a few hours after the lights come on. When things are very warm, or don't cool down at night, they tend to be active in evening or right after lights out.

[katach]

Good thought Richard, thanks!

[d_virginiana]

Houdini is almost always out at 3 or 4 am. I think it's probably more because he can't tell when it's dark than because he's old though. When I do my before-bed temp check, he always feels me walking around and starts begging for food.

[jitami]

Thank you, Greg, for mentioning shedding issues. Our old girl seems to be taking longer to shed than usual and looking odd in her dusky, dull, old skin. She's otherwise active and seems fine. She has soaked some, but nothing out of the ordinary. I just changed her water and she's soaking now. I'm really hoping she starts the process on her own. No clue how old she is... she was a big girl already when we brought her in, in 2007, and we had seen her around for a couple of years before that... I'm probably a bit paranoid after loosing Sly earlier this year at 14ish - he acted normal until the last day or so before he passed :/

[jitami]

Ok, a week later & still no shed for our old girl... I've got her in a warm soak now, but not sure what else to do for her. Muscle tone seems good, activity level seems normal, especially considering she should be going into shed. She's definitely not limp, lethargic, etc. just hanging out in her old skin. You can see the scale separation at her head, etc. You could see that a well over a week ago, fwiw. Thoughts?

[d_virginiana]

Hm... I wouldn't worry about it for now so long as she's got somewhere she can soak if she wants and she's not acting differently. My old guy (15 years old) will look really dingy and get kind of a dry feel to his scales for a pretty long period before he sheds. Look for lateral folds where she bends; like, folds kind of going from the belly straight up toward the spine; those are a pretty clear marker of a retained shed.

There's always a lot of guesswork involved with my old one shedding because he has cataracts in both his eyes (completely blind) and it's pretty much impossible to use the eyes to tell when he's going blue. He has never had any problems shedding, but the timing of it and the state the skin gets to before a shed have changed quite a bit as he's gotten older.

[jitami]

Thank you. No folds... how long would you say is a 'pretty long period'? I've never seen any of mine get to this point or take this long to lose it.

[d_virginiana]

I've never really timed it, but it can be a couple weeks. Whenever I've actually had to deal with a retained shed there was no guesswork or anything; there was just a very different feel to it that's hard to put into words, but it was obvious the minute I picked up the snake that it had gone from 'about to shed' to 'retained shed'. In those instances I got the shed off with no problems, so it wasn't like it was too late or anything.

[jitami]

Thank you again. I'm pretty happy to say that in 13 years of having garters I've never had a retained shed, but I suppose there's a first for everything... I'll keep you posted.

[jitami]

And she shed today! Yay! Complete normal shed, just took a lot longer than normal for whatever reason.

[d_virginiana]

And she shed today! Yay! Complete normal shed, just took a lot longer than normal for whatever reason.

:)