A Facebook discussion with, amongst others, Mark O Shea about tetrataenia

[Thamnophis]

You can find it here

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=513325162016137&set=p.513325162016137&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_reply (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=513325162016137&set=p.513325162016137&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_reply)

[guidofatherof5]

Says the content is unavailable.

[Thamnophis]

You have to be a FaceBook member, I guess...

[Thamnophis]

Estella Schiller (https://www.facebook.com/estella.schiller) at Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna)

It is also among California's rarest snakes. It has been official designated as "Endangered" on State lists since 1966, and was on the first Federal Endangered Species List established in 1973. Once common in stock ponds and small marshes in San Mateo County on the San Francisco Peninsula-Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia
Hi Mark, I hope you dont mind me posting, Im wondering or I was told by one of my UK friends that this species is owned or keeped by some in the UK?

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) I remember the late Luke Yeomans has specimens way back in the 80s or 90s. The San Francisco garter snake Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia was considered endangered and confined to the water courses on SF airport. However it turns out that the type specimen of Thamnophis s. infernalis is actually a specimen from of the taxon formerly known as T.s.tetrataenia and since infernalis is the older name it has priority. This also extends the range of this snake outside the airport boundaries to encompass the entire SF Peninsula. It should therefore be known as T.s.infernalis and not T.s.tetrataenia. See Rossman, Ford & Seigal 1996 The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology. The latest editions (6th) of Standard COmmon and Current Scientific Names for North American Amphibians, Turtles, Reptiles and Crocodilians (Collins & Taggart 2009) also omits tetrataenia in favour of infernal is. As for the rarest US snake, I thought that might be the San Joaquin coachwhip, Masticophis flagellum ruddocki, or the Brazos watersnake, Nerodia harteri.

Adam Radovanovic (https://www.facebook.com/adam.radovanovic) I keep 2.3 of these at the zoo and they are absolutely stunning snakes. Very small gene pool exists within UK private and zoological institutions which means we are seeing many health issues and ailments.

Meg Francoeur (https://www.facebook.com/meg.francoeur) Stunning animal. Too bad they are so endangered.

Fons Sleijpen (https://www.facebook.com/sleijpen) Where can I find this, Marc?

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) Except T.s.tetrataenia is a synonym of T.s.infernalis, the name tetrataenia is no longer the valid name.

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) Well for a start I reference two publications above in my first post which use infernalis over tetrataenia. The type specimen of infernalis was found to be a specimen of what was at the time known as tetrataenia and since infernalis was the older name it had priority. The Collins & Taggart checklist is the official list for N.America that all publications use for standardising scientific and common names.

Fons Sleijpen (https://www.facebook.com/sleijpen) Ok, thank you.

Fons Sleijpen (https://www.facebook.com/sleijpen) As I understand correctly is infernalis and tetrataenia now the same subspecies. And will it be possible for Americans to keep it in a terrarium. At least in the states where they are allowed to keep infernalis? There will be a lot of happy people overthere...

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) No Greg, previously tetrataenia was a rare ssp. confined to the airport environs and infernalis was a somewhat more widely distributed ssp. on the peninsula. Now the latter contains both forms, there is no such thing as tetrataenia anymore. The type of infernalis was what later became known as tetrataenia, they are one and the same. Fons is correct in his understanding, they are the same.Estella

Schiller (https://www.facebook.com/estella.schiller) Thank you Mark for reply !

Greg Watkins-Colwell (https://www.facebook.com/greg.watkinscolwell) Did I delete my own comments? Oy. Getting used to new iPad. Any way, needs a neotype. But in the mean time I betcha that USFWS will continue to protect it. Or at least state of California will, even outside the air port. They can even list populations as protected regardless of ICZN rules.

Greg Watkins-Colwell (https://www.facebook.com/greg.watkinscolwell) CA may already protect infernalis regardless. I haven't looked.

Jackson Shedd (https://www.facebook.com/jackson.shedd) Aside from tetrataenia/infernalis taxonomy, Giant garters (T. gigas) are far more restricted by available extant suitable habitat and are more specialized than M. f. ruddocki. If you consider the Alameda whipsnake (M. l. euryxanthus) a valid taxon, it too is more restricted in both habitat and distribution than M. f. ruddocki.

Thats it up to now...

[Dan72]

We are on facebook and it wouldn't let me view it as well.

[Thamnophis]

Maybe it is only visible when you are friend with Mark O Shea... But I copied the text in the post here above...

[guidofatherof5]

T.s.tetrataenia is still a valid name.
CNAH (http://www.cnah.org/detail.asp?id=1218)

[BUSHSNAKE]

if tetratenia changed to infernalis then most of the range of what we call infernalis would have become concinnus

[Invisible Snake]

Wait if tetrataenia have been changed to infernalis does that mean we Americans (excluding Californians) can keep them as pets? :D:p

[Stefan-A]

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) I remember the late Luke Yeomans has specimens way back in the 80s or 90s. The San Francisco garter snake Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia was considered endangered and confined to the water courses on SF airport. However it turns out that the type specimen of Thamnophis s. infernalis is actually a specimen from of the taxon formerly known as T.s.tetrataenia and since infernalis is the older name it has priority. This also extends the range of this snake outside the airport boundaries to encompass the entire SF Peninsula. It should therefore be known as T.s.infernalis and not T.s.tetrataenia. See Rossman, Ford & Seigal 1996 The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology. The latest editions (6th) of Standard COmmon and Current Scientific Names for North American Amphibians, Turtles, Reptiles and Crocodilians (Collins & Taggart 2009) also omits tetrataenia in favour of infernal is. As for the rarest US snake, I thought that might be the San Joaquin coachwhip, Masticophis flagellum ruddocki, or the Brazos watersnake, Nerodia harteri.
Flimsy references. Rossman & somebody else(IIRC, Boundy) were overruled in 2000 or 2001 by the ICZN and Collins & Taggart don't cite sources. If they base it on Rossman & some guy's recommendation, which they probably do, the list is invalid.

[guidofatherof5]

Here is a link to the ICZN (International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature) where they stepped in to stop a proposed name change to T.s.tetrataenia (San Francisco Garter Snake) in order to keep its "Endangered" status intact.

Conservation | International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (http://iczn.org/content/conservation)

Here is another link to a study that shows T.s.tetrataenia has a much larger range then O'Shea suggests.
Thank you Steve Schmidt for the link to this study.
http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/five_year_review/doc774.pdf

[Thamnophis]

That's why I placed the discussion here... Because as far as I knew there still is a subspecies names tetrataenia.
I placed a link etc. to this topic in the discussion on facebook for Mark O' Shea.

[chris-uk]

That's why I placed the discussion here... Because as far as I knew there still is a subspecies names tetrataenia.
I placed a link etc. to this topic in the discussion on facebook for Mark O' Shea.

It's a shame most of us can't see the FB discussion, it must be restricted to Mark's friends. I hope that you can update the discussion with the information here that corrects the assertion that infernalis and tetrataenia are the same subspecies.

[scorpion0151]

you probably do have to be on Mark o Shea's friends list as it was posted on his wall, I'm on there so I can see it :p

[Thamnophis]

The follow up...

Fons Sleijpen (https://www.facebook.com/sleijpen) Mark, I placed this discussion on the large forum www.thamnophis.com (http://www.thamnophis.com/).

The topic is here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11138-facebook-discussion-amongst-others-mark-o-shea-about-tetrataenia.html

Taxonomic Comments: CNAH

The International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2000 Opinion 1961, Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature 57(3): 191-192) has voted to retain the historical taxonomic arrangement of subspecies within this evolutionary lineage, rejecting the arrangement proposed by Boundy and Rossman (1995 Copeia 1995(1): 236-240). Accordingly, the subspecies tetrataenia is reinstated and the races concinnus and infernalis retain their historical definition.https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDlANkLH9cxrB8y&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thamnophis.com%2Fimages%2Ftha mnophis%2Fgreen%2Fmisc%2Flogo.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thamnophis.com%2F&h=gAQFQUVBpAQGM7MYTxYxVhoYugQdL8TEFhL2k03OIMAQhdQ&s=1)Garter Snake Forum (http://www.thamnophis.com/)
www.thamnophis.com (http://www.thamnophis.com/)Thamnophis is a community dedicated to the raising and husbandry of garter snakes.

Mark O'Shea (https://www.facebook.com/herpetofauna) Fons, Having now looked into this I agree the ICZN did decide to retain tetrataenia so as to maintain stability. I have read the argument but forward by Barry & Jennings in this respect. I therefore stand corrected, nobody is right all the time eh! Looks like I will have to relabel my photos of this attractive gartersnake again but I appreciate the heads up.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad we could be part of resolving any misinformation.