wild garters cross breeding in the wild.

[setfree]

Hey guy's! I was wondering if any of you know if a garter of one species would naturally cross breed with another species in the wild.:confused: Like say a red-sided garter would mate with a radix? I don't think they would but I just wanted some other opinions.

Thanks!:D

[guidofatherof5]

I can't say I've heard of a T.s. parietalis X T.radix hybrid/intergrade but with overlapping ranges it possible.
Then again I know that Thamnophis has a wide range of hemipenis design(shapes and sizes) so I wondering if this eliminates the chance of hybrids in many overlapping ranges.

Good question to bring up for discussion.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/medium/hemipenis_page_32.jpg

[thamneil]

I remember Kantar mentioning something about a cemetery here in Manitoba that has radix/parietalis hybrids. Never been there but I'm quite curious. I'll have to check in with him about that.

[Eight]

I would be rather surprised if it wasn't possible, even with different hemipenis design. When you think of the crazy hybrids that some people have decided to create, like bloodballs, you can imagine it would be rather straight forward with garters. But then again garters else a completely different species and boids are classed as primitive snakes so I don't know if they abide by different rules when it comes to hybrids.

Something to think about for the day though. Have many garter hybrids been found naturally in tin wild?

[kibakiba]

Bloodballs sounds pretty painful... I'm happy I'm not a guy! :D

[Eight]

Thanks. I now have many painfull images in my head involving various amounts of blood, balls and Pythons...

[kibakiba]

Well the solution is simple, don't stick a python there.

[EasternGirl]

Ha ha ha...you guys never fail to crack me up. I would think that there must be occurances of garters crossbreeding in the wild. I wonder if any of the garter species or subspecies could be a product of crossbreeding at some point in the evolutionary chain...

And Steve...thank you for the info on the different hemipenises. I had no idea that different species had anatomical differences in regard to genitalia.

[chris-uk]

And Steve...thank you for the info on the different hemipenises. I had no idea that different species had anatomical differences in regard to genitalia.
It's a picture from the garter bible, you haven't been reading your chapters well enough have you Marnie?

Most occurrences of cross-breeding I remember reading about have been between sub-species and therefore intergrades, @s opposed to crosses between species to make hybrids. I'm sure some interbreeding does eventually lead to a new species forming, but it's not going to stem from a single hybrid litter, more a case of overlapping ranges leading to frequent hybridisation. This also relies on the hybrid having some sort of advantage.

[Invisible Snake]

I've read in "The General Care and Maintenance of Garter Snakes & Water Snakes" by David Perlowin,

"The differences of opinion as to the number of subspecies center around whether T. cyrtopsis has integrated with the Mexican garter snake, T. eques, or whether they evolved separately."

^ Direct quote from the book

[Stefan-A]

Most occurrences of cross-breeding I remember reading about have been between sub-species and therefore intergrades, @s opposed to crosses between species to make hybrids.
Crosses on the subspecies level aren't intergrades, they're hybrids. Intergrades are individuals that demonstrate intergradation, which is a phenomenon within population ecology in which subspecies are connected by populations that share characteristics with both.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes2012/intergerds.jpg

[chris-uk]

Where do the intergrades come from?

[Stefan-A]

Where do the intergrades come from?
From zones of intergradation, where this whole wondrous phenomenon takes place.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I've heard that that infernalis and tetrataenia interbreed often.

[setfree]

Wow! there is a lot of information that I have never known about in this topic. Thanks for all the ideas and comments. :D

[kibakiba]

You have learned a very valuable lesson. Snakes + balls = blood. :D

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

The 3 snakes I just acquired all came from the same front yard. Two are Fitchi (females) and one is Vagrans (male). I actually thought to myself when I picked them up from the man who caught them in his yard, "I wonder if these could breed in the wild". I would not breed them and they are in separate tanks. But having just thought of this a few days ago, this thread is very interesting to me.

[paulh]

Besides hemipenis shape and ornamentation, there are pheromone and ecological differences. If the ladies do not smell right, the guys don't go for them. And if the guys and ladies don't hang out in the same place, they won't make contact. T. s. parietalis likes bushes and trees. T. radix likes grassy areas.

[Steveo]

Lots of unnatural behaviors come out in captivity and it probably wouldn't be too hard to do some crosses. If you can mix python species, kings and corns, etc., I don't think garters are special and uncrossable. Perhaps a few specific combinations wouldn't work but I'd be very surprised if it didn't work at all. Subspecies of the same species are very likely to be compatible.

Before getting into snakes I did a lot of work with Betta splendens. In the last 10-15 years the asian farmers have crossed a lot of different species from the Betta genus in with B. splendens. B. imbellis was one of the first, which yielded the copper color and the metallic layer. It's hard to buy B.splendens today and be confident that it is genetically pure. I really like the copper color but I refuse to buy obviously crossbred fish.

I hope garters don't end up the same way, but to think it can't happen would be a bit naive.

[Eight]

Agreed. It would be a shame to see garters in the same situation of some of the more "crossed" animals we keep as pets. As a general rule I don't go for hybrids, with the exception of dogs. The only hybrid snake I would agree with would be crossed with a bat, but that's impossible. What I would give for a dragon.

[Steveo]

Dogs are a special case because they are all the same species, IMO. They're so far removed from wolves that they're a genetic playground at this point.

[ProXimuS]

Besides hemipenis shape and ornamentation, there are pheromone and ecological differences. If the ladies do not smell right, the guys don't go for them. And if the guys and ladies don't hang out in the same place, they won't make contact. T. s. parietalis likes bushes and trees. T. radix likes grassy areas.

I didn't know that about the pheremones. I kind of wondered though...Thanks for the info:)

Steveo, dogs have been domesticated for a looooooong time, but on a genetic level they share approximately 99% of the same DNA as wolves. Between each different dog breed, there is only a fraction of a percent of difference.

[Steveo]

Steveo, dogs have been domesticated for a looooooong time, but on a genetic level they share approximately 99% of the same DNA as wolves. Between each different dog breed, there is only a fraction of a percent of difference.

That's true of all related species. We're 99% chimpanzee. The point is that there isn't any natural genetic purity to preserve in a Beagle or a Poodle or a Collie - the wolves themselves contain the natural genetics. Dogs are all the same subspecies so breeding a German Shepherd to a Bloodhound is the same as breeding a Flame Eastern to a Snow Eastern; the only difference is that garter breeding is still in its infancy and not that many genetic mutations have turned up.

[Stefan-A]

Steveo, dogs have been domesticated for a looooooong time, but on a genetic level they share approximately 99% of the same DNA as wolves. Between each different dog breed, there is only a fraction of a percent of difference.
Dogs are 100% wolf.


That's true of all related species. We're 99% chimpanzee.
We're 0% chimp, 100% ape. Incidentally for the same reason why dogs are 100% wolf.

[setfree]

Dogs are 100% wolf.


We're 0% chimp, 100% ape. Incidentally for the same reason why dogs are 100% wolf.

It is scientifically proven that if you have the right dog species combination you can get all dog species/wolf species from the same 2 dogs. So, if you had 2 adults with the correct DNA combination, you could, as scientifically proven with the dogs, produce ALL people groups from that one set of adults...it might take a few generations, but it is the way that genetics work.

And btw you can think you came from an ape if you want to but last I checked I was 100% HUMAN.

[Stefan-A]

It is scientifically proven that if you have the right dog species combination you can get all dog species/wolf species from the same 2 dogs. So, if you had 2 adults with the correct DNA combination, you could, as scientifically proven with the dogs, produce ALL people groups from that one set of adults...it might take a few generations, but it is the way that genetics work.
That's nonsense.


last I checked I was 100% HUMAN.
That may be, but humans are apes. All of them. You too.

[d_virginiana]

It is scientifically proven that if you have the right dog species combination you can get all dog species/wolf species from the same 2 dogs. So, if you had 2 adults with the correct DNA combination, you could, as scientifically proven with the dogs, produce ALL people groups from that one set of adults...it might take a few generations, but it is the way that genetics work.

And btw you can think you came from an ape if you want to but last I checked I was 100% HUMAN.

It's actually the opposite... Let all the existing dog breeds mix with each other, and in a few generations most of the mutations and patterns humans have bred in disappear and you end up with one 'breed' of dog very similar to a dingo or New Guinea singing dog.
In studies done on feral dog populations in large cities, populations of dogs emerge based on a few fairly 'unmodified' species. They've found that shepherd breeds, chows, and husky/malamutes make up nearly 90% of the genetics of studied feral populations regardless of what breeds are present in human households in the area. There is no scientific basis for saying that two dogs could produce all dog breeds.

If you aren't an ape then I want credit for discovering a new form of intelligent life.
Two people can produce more people with a combination of the genes they already have. Two blue-eyed parents cannot produce a child without blue eyes.

[KephrenJorgensen]

This may be somewhat off topic, since the original question has to do with T parietalis, but where I live, I've found melanisitc ordinoides x elegans vagrans. I even observed what I think was a sirtalis pickerringii x ordinoides eating tadpoles in a pond. It had the pale upper lip of the ordinoides, the red stripe and belly splotches, but the side stripes were the yellowish-blue, a nd the orange dots between the stripes were vaguley present.

[kibakiba]

Northwesterns are polymorphic, I doubt it was a hybrid.

[KephrenJorgensen]

I've never seen one with a solid black colour, unless it was melanistic, with faint grey or no stripes.

[the_edsta]

I'm actually surprised I haven't seen more about this on this site, but what about infernalis and parietalis? Specimens from each group can look quite similar, and their ranges are close... they seem like they'd be a natural pairing. Does anyone have experience with it, in the wild or in captivity?

[kibakiba]

Yeah, we have a melanistic (possibly male or young female) here... It lives in the field. Seen it twice, but both times I couldn't catch it. Always pops up in the blackberry bushes. My little Derpy is dull black with a fading stripe. He's an oddity in his own right. Mostly mentally ;)

Also, Snakey (rest his little soul) was black, light lipped with tan side stripes. The spotting could be that it was an ery. I believe Ashley's baby, Cuddles, has orangey spots on him. My favourite garter from when I was a kid was a fitchii... I was 4 almost 5 and a worker brought me a black garter, had very little red spotting with a yellow upper lip area with a little tiny bit of orange at the tip of its nose... Around here, unless you catch the elusive blue northwestern... It's the most colourful snake you'll ever see.

[the_edsta]

Still curious... anyone with interspecific experience with infernalis and parietalis? I know the OP asked about parietalis and radix, but this pairing seems more likely to me (and I've wondered about it in the past).

[tspuckler]

It is scientifically proven ...

Science, as a rule, never proves anything. Gravity, evolution, etc. are all theories. A theory may have a lot of evidence to support it, but it can never be "proven." This is a basic "rule" of science.

Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.

http://www.thirdeyeherp.com/spuck/california/2011/aquatic2.JPG

[kibakiba]

Do you have proof that it's a three way cross? How would you truly know unless you got all of its genetics and such tested?

[ConcinusMan]

Besides hemipenis shape and ornamentation, there are pheromone and ecological differences. If the ladies do not smell right, the guys don't go for them.


I can't say I've heard of a T.s. parietalis X T.radix hybrid/intergrade but with overlapping ranges it possible.
Then again I know that Thamnophis has a wide range of hemipenis design(shapes and sizes) so I wondering if this eliminates the chance of hybrids in many overlapping ranges.

Good question to bring up for discussion.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/medium/hemipenis_page_32.jpg

What they said ^^^

Where two different species of garters occur, you just don't see any hybrids between the two, for reasons mentioned above. Neither species would be around for long if hybridizing occurred in the wild. The two species are separate for a reason. Because it just doesn't happen.



This may be somewhat off topic, since the original question has to do with T parietalis, but where I live, I've found melanisitc ordinoides x elegans vagrans. I even observed what I think was a sirtalis pickerringii x ordinoides eating tadpoles in a pond.

I think you're mistaken. T. ordinoides are so completely different physically, from T.s. pickeringii or T. e. vagrans, as to make it all but impossible for them to mate with another species. None of the snakes you mentioned can breed with one another. It's physically impossible.

All three are highly variable naturally.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.

http://www.thirdeyeherp.com/spuck/california/2011/aquatic2.JPG

And where is the DNA test results that brought you to that conclusion? And besides, those are all the same species. Without the DNA testing to prove it, you simply have an intergrade. It doesn't mean you have a hybrid.

[Stefan-A]

And where is the DNA test results that brought you to that conclusion? And besides, those are all the same species. Without the DNA testing to prove it, you simply have an intergrade. It doesn't mean you have a hybrid.
It may be an intergrade, it may be an intraspecific hybrid. If it's a cross involving different subspecies, it's the latter. It may even be both.

[ConcinusMan]

Not to mention that whole "atratus" complex has been a source of confusion all along. I question the validity of any of the atratus subspecies. Thamnophis atratus intergrades (http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/t.a.aquaticus.html)

[Stefan-A]

I question the validity of any of the atratus subspecies.
On the grounds of what, morphology?

[tspuckler]

Without the DNA testing to prove it, you simply have an intergrade. It doesn't mean you have a hybrid.

I never said it was a hybrid. I called it a three-way cross. You can read more about wild atratus crosses in the wild at:
Thamnophis atratus intergrades (http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/t.a.aquaticus.html)


Do you have proof that it's a three way cross? How would you truly know unless you got all of its genetics and such tested?
Did you have genetic testing done on your 2.2.3 Thamnophis ordinoides? If not, how can you truly know that's what they are?

[Stefan-A]

Crosses are hybrids and hybrids are crosses. We're not talking about dog breeds here.

[kibakiba]

I know for a fact they aren't intergrades. That's for sure. I'm not claiming that they're hybrids or intergrades like you are. The only snakes in my area are ordinoides. I found one wandering, once in the past 17 years I've lived here.

[tspuckler]

Crosses are hybrids and hybrids are crosses. We're not talking about dog breeds here.

Never mentioned dogs. Where I come from someone could cross a Miami locality corn snake with a Kentucky locality corn snake. It would be called a cross. Someone could cross a kingsnake with a corn snake and that would be called a cross. It's common "lingo" in the USA. I would call the king X corn a hybrid. But it still would also be called a cross.

Around here when two different species interbreed it's called a hybrid. When two subspecies interbreed in nature it's called an intergrade. They are collectively referred to as "crosses."


I know for a fact they aren't intergrades.
No you don't. There are many "pure" looking snakes that are in fact hybrids. You do not truly know what your snakes are.


I'm not claiming that they're hybrids or intergrades like you are
I never claimed that your snakes are intergrades or hybrids.


I found one wandering, once in the past 17 years I've lived here.
That dosen't mean anything. If a cross occurred 60 years ago and the offspring bred into "pure" forms, then every generation thereafter would be a cross. You don't know what you have without DNA testing.

[kibakiba]

Niether do you, so why are you arguing that that snake is a 'cross'?

[tspuckler]

Niether do you, so why are you arguing that that snake is a 'cross'?

That snake was tested at the California Academy of Science - so that's why. It's not an arguement - it's a simple statement of fact.

[kibakiba]

Show us the proof then. That's the only way anyone will believe you. Why didn't you just add the 'test's done with the picture. You need proof before you go flapping your gums like some sort of snake genius.

[tspuckler]

Show us the proof then. That's the only way anyone will believe you. Why didn't you just add the 'test's done with the picture. You need proof before you go flapping your gums like some sort of snake genius.

You're the one "flapping your gums." So people "do science." You obviously don't. Even if I showed you "proof" you'd still argue about it endlessly and make false accusations about me like you did in your previous posts. You obviously lack the intelligence to have a meaningful conversation about this and admit that you're wrong. Good luck with that!

You don't need to be a "snake genius" to determine a naturally occurring intergrade. There's plenty of snakes like the "Greenish Rat Snake" (a cross between a yellow rat and a black rat) that are easy to look at and see that they have the characteristics of two different subspecies.

Oh, and there's plenty of people who believe me. I couldn't care less if you do.

Take a chill pill and relax.

[kibakiba]

Lol, cool story bro.

[guidofatherof5]

Do not let this get out of hand. PM your dispute between each other if necessary. Please.

[kibakiba]

That post was going to be my last. But this one, now, is my last. I like talking to people with brains.

[chris-uk]

Science, as a rule, never proves anything. Gravity, evolution, etc. are all theories. A theory may have a lot of evidence to support it, but it can never be "proven." This is a basic "rule" of science.

There's a great many facts that have been proven by science. For example, science has proven that my unborn child is male, this has been done using ultrasound tests and a full chromosomal mapping. I wouldn't call the ultrasound proof because there is a risk of human error, however correct scientific method precludes the possibility of an error in the chromosomal mapping. There's a difference between science proving a fact and proving out a theorem.


Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.


Nice snake.


That snake was tested at the California Academy of Science - so that's why. It's not an arguement - it's a simple statement of fact.

Given your earlier statement that science never proves anything (as a rule), I'd be interested to know what tests were done at the California Academy of Science that makes the atratus specimen an exception to your rule. I do science (at least I claim to, I do have a medical genetics degree which tells me I used to do science) which makes me curious about the sort of tests that are done by professional herpetologists in institutions around the world.

[Stefan-A]

Never mentioned dogs.
I never said you did. It was just an example, like the one you gave.


Around here when two different species interbreed it's called a hybrid.
Yes.


When two subspecies interbreed in nature it's called an intergrade.
No. We're talking about two entirely different levels here. Subspecies x subspecies crosses (hybrids) happen on an individual level, intergradation happens on a population level.



Show us the proof then. That's the only way anyone will believe you. Why didn't you just add the 'test's done with the picture. You need proof before you go flapping your gums like some sort of snake genius.
That's a bit unnecessary, Chantel.


There's a great many facts that have been proven by science. For example, science has proven that my unborn child is male, this has been done using ultrasound tests and a full chromosomal mapping. I wouldn't call the ultrasound proof because there is a risk of human error, however correct scientific method precludes the possibility of an error in the chromosomal mapping. There's a difference between science proving a fact and proving out a theorem.
I think I agree with tspuckler on this one point. That's using the word "proof" a bit too loosely.

[chris-uk]

I think I agree with tspuckler on this one point. That's using the word "proof" a bit too loosely.

Really? I think my use of the word "proof" is fine


Definition of proof

noun (mass noun) : evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement


In this case the tests conducted on my unborn child provide proof that he is, in fact, a "he".
Being pedantic, there is always doubt in any proof, but the level of proof required before we consider something proven should be proportional to the nature of the claim. I think in the case of sexing a baby a full chromosomal mapping is sufficient proof (only really trumped by doing the same test several times in different labs to further reduce the likelihood of a procedural error producing false results.

[Stefan-A]

Really? I think my use of the word "proof" is fine



In this case the tests conducted on my unborn child provide proof that he is, in fact, a "he".
Being pedantic, there is always doubt in any proof, but the level of proof required before we consider something proven should be proportional to the nature of the claim. I think in the case of sexing a baby a full chromosomal mapping is sufficient proof (only really trumped by doing the same test several times in different labs to further reduce the likelihood of a procedural error producing false results.

Scientific evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence)
Problem of induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction)

[chris-uk]

Scientific evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence)
Problem of induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction)

I always wonder whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you just post links to other sources. Either way, some time in the next few weeks I will have a son, I know I will have a son because practical science has proven that this is the case. I'm not talking about philosophical thought experiments here, I'm talking about evidence that has a high enough probability of being correct that I will accept it as fact. Therefore science has proven something that I accept as fact and our doctors and genetic councillors accept. That is the crux of my original response, to question whether science can prove something.

Of course, if after 24 hours of labour Joseph turns up and is in fact a Josephine, I'll come home eat my keyboard and paint the blue walls of his nursery pink.

[Stefan-A]

I always wonder whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you just post links to other sources.
Could be either one. Sometimes both. Sometimes neither. Sometimes, not spelling it out is a point in itself.

[SilasBannook]

Early posts spoke of the ranges of the different snake sub-species. I recently found this awesome site that mapped out the natural ranges of the snakes. Click on "search" then enter the species, i.e. Thamnophis Radix then click go then check the blank squares under none then click "map selected layers" and you will get a wonderful mapping of recorded areas on the world where the snakes have been documented. Check it out. It will help answer the question of overlapping ranges.

Map of Life (http://www.mappinglife.org/)

[guidofatherof5]

It is an awesome website.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/11176-very-cool-website-map-life-org.html

[ConcinusMan]

Did you have genetic testing done on your 2.2.3 Thamnophis ordinoides? If not, how can you truly know that's what they are?

it's quite simple. It's physically impossible for T. ordinoides to cross with any other species in their range. The reproductive parts are incompatible. Any more questions?

[ConcinusMan]

It is an awesome website.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/11176-very-cool-website-map-life-org.html

Maybe it is but I can't make heads or tails out of how to use it. Furthermore, it appears that it doesn't distinquish between different subspecies of T. sirtalis. A problem I run into all too often.

[ProXimuS]

Maybe it is but I can't make heads or tails out of how to use it. Furthermore, it appears that it doesn't distinquish between different subspecies of T. sirtalis. A problem I run into all too often.

And for tha problem, there is this site:
snakefinder (http://gartersnake.de/snakefinder/snakefinder.html)

I found that site somewhere on this forum also. Just click Snakefinder to enter, and then after that it's basically self explanitory:)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I've seen that. it's not very accurate. Accurate enough to just get a general idea of where the various subspecies occur, but not accurate enough to determine where subspecies ranges may overlap.

For example, take a look at the range for T. s. concinnus. Not even close. They don't range all the way north to the puget sound, and they certainly don't range into California. Likewise, pickeringii do not range to the Oregon/WA state line. They only range as far south as the Chehalis river in Lewis county.

Snake finder needs a lot of work before it can be at all useful.

[guidofatherof5]

Maybe it is but I can't make heads or tails out of how to use it. Furthermore, it appears that it doesn't distinquish between different subspecies of T. sirtalis. A problem I run into all too often.

There's a short video that gives instructions on how to use it. I was lost until I watched it.

[ProXimuS]

I guess maybe it's designed more for a beginner like me:p I don't even hardly know any general ranges. So it can give ma a general idea. I figured it wasn't 100% accurate, but it gives a vague idea of the range, I guess.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, very vague, to downright wrong.