Surprise, Surprise

[Mexicofan]

Hello Thamnophisfriends,

some weeks ago our new litter of marcianus is born. 28 alive, 1 stillborn, no jellys. When we pick them out of the closure the Surprice has been perfekt.
At first I thought the little is very dirty but we could not wash the dirt of.
It has been the pieball you can see on the last Foto.
It is the second litter with a very interesting coloration from these parents. Some are tending more into yellow, others more into grey-white. Some have a more opend pattern, some more closed, some smaller pattern and some a bigger one. No one is like the other. Also the albinos are different. Two of them are orange insted of the normal rosy red. In the first litter of these parents, last year, we also have had a pieball but it has been a stillborn.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/152631_800x6001.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11018&title=colors&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0011_800x600.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11019&title=yellow&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0333_800x533.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11020&title=colors-and-pattern&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/pieball_rechtes_Auge.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11021&title=pieball-marcianus&cat=500)

Have you ever seen or heared about these on marcianus?

[twgrosmick]

Awesome!

[guidofatherof5]

They are awesome. Can't say I've ever heard of a piebald T.marcianus.
Are they eating yet?

[Dan72]

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

[Invisible Snake]

Wow that is amazing and I believe a world's first, Congratulations!!

[Mexicofan]

Hello,

@ guidofatherof5: Yes, he is eating very well and allready has been sheded two times.

He has been the last from the litter who begun to eat, but now he is a very greedy eater. On the foto you could not see, but he has one normal dark eye on the right side. The left one is red as normal albino eye.

They are born in Walpurgis Night.

Regards

Konrad

[Sonya610]

Very beautiful. Congratulations!

[guidofatherof5]

So were they born April 30th or May 1st?

[Mexicofan]

Correct. They are born in the night from the April 30th to May 1st.

[Scott F]

Believe the black spots may be indicative of paradoxism, cool looking snakes, congrats on a nice brood !

Scott

[guidofatherof5]

Scott,
Would please explain paradoxism. I can't seem to find anything that relates to breeding. Thanks.

[Chondro788]

Most of the time in reptiles the paradox morph is a "pop up" morph that does not prove to be genetic. We have seen them pop up in many species of boas and pythons. The other cool part about paradox animals is that they can be so variable. One species where it did prove to be an inheritable trait is sand boas. This is a very cool litter, and I hope that it does prove to be genetic.

[Mexicofan]

Hi,

I dont think that it´s here just a popup. Why? Because in the other two former litters of these parents we also have had these from. But only as stillborns. So it much be a geneticaly fixed form.

The Genetic Experts say, that paradoxism is also a Pieball form witch only is not geneticaly stabil, like you sayed just a "pop up".

Greetings
Konrad

[mikem]

Amazing looking garter :eek:

[Chondro788]

Well with 3 breedings resulting in paradox offspring it certainly sounds genetic. Hopefully one of those beauties will live in your next clutch. They are really cool looking!!

[thamneil]

Congrats on the litter! Looks like you got quite a surprise out of that group. Good luck raising the little guys.

[chris-uk]

Based on the last photo I would have suggested that there's mosaicism going on. A mosaic is where the cells from two fertilised eggs get combined shortly after fertilisation, it happens in humans and other animals so why not a snake? However, if this is the third litter with one of these snakes in it lighting would be more likely to strike you three times, so it makes the mosaic less likely unless mosaics are more common in snakes.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Awesome!!! I love how the head and eyes look normal and the rest of the snake looks like a paradox albino. Not sure whats going on here but i hope to see more in the future.

[Invisible Snake]

Hey Mexicofan will you be breeding the piebald siblings together or with the mother to prove out the trait?

[EasternGirl]

Just gorgeous! I love the piebald one! Amazing. Congrats on all of the litter and thanks for the pics. :)

[Steveo]

Based on the last photo I would have suggested that there's mosaicism going on. A mosaic is where the cells from two fertilised eggs get combined shortly after fertilisation, it happens in humans and other animals so why not a snake? However, if this is the third litter with one of these snakes in it lighting would be more likely to strike you three times, so it makes the mosaic less likely unless mosaics are more common in snakes.

Aso known in the States as a chimaera. :) Chimaeras usually show some form of bilateral asymmetry, which this little guy lacks.

[gazzamann]

very nice congrats !!!

[joeyjoe9876]

I love that paradox looking albino! Great little guys you got here!

[ProXimuS]

Cool! Nice litter! I really love that last guy!;) If you can could you show us a pic of the two different eyes on him?

[katach]

Amazing! Congrats!

[Steveo]

Aso known in the States as a chimaera. :) Chimaeras usually show some form of bilateral asymmetry, which this little guy lacks.

Need to correct myself - can't tell bilateral a/symmetry from the picture provided.

[ConcinusMan]

That albino snake must be a chimera or mosaic, not a "piebald" Mosaic (genetics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(genetics))

Fascinating! Very rare, and of great interest to science, not just to "snake people"

[snakeman]

Not rare, pops up in almost every albino strain eventually.

[Mandi0284]

Congrats on all the babies. They are gorgeous. It seems like a lot of the members breed their snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Not rare, pops up in almost every albino strain eventually.

News to me. But I suppose if it weren't for the albino part, one probably wouldn't even notice if it was a chimera.

[chris-uk]

Chimaeras in animals that have large litters are probably more common than acknowledged, as Richard points out, you would not notice if it wasn't an albino/normal mosaic.
There's not much anyone can say about this one without more photos from more angles. If it was my snake I'd be doing a full photographic survey (not easy when they are wriggling). Ultimately they only certain way to identify a mosaic is a DNA analysis of the different tissues.

[ConcinusMan]

It would have to be a mosaic or chimera. How else could it be only partially albino? Obviously some of the snake's cells are not homozygous for the albino trait. There's only one way that could happen. Two different DNA profiles in the same snake. One with an allele lacking the matching mutated albino gene, one not.

[chris-uk]

It would have to be a mosaic or chimera. How else could it be only partially albino? Obviously some of the snake's cells are not homozygous for the albino trait. There's only one way that could happen. Two different DNA profiles in the same snake. One with an allele lacking the matching mutated albino gene, one not.

I tend to agree. I think the most likely explanation is a mosaic, and whilst there may be some other explanation (I don't know, maybe a disorder that prevents the production of melanine in some skin cells) I'd go with mosaic.

[Mexicofan]

Hello,

at last all are interesting point of view. At the weekend I will make new photos to show here.
Since then thanks to all for the comments.

Like I wrote at the begin, the litter contains all kinds of pattern and colors. Hopfully the camera will display it well on the photos.

Regards

Konrad

[Mexicofan]

Hola,

so here are some new fotos of these interesting garter.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0516_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11035&title=thmarcianus&cat=500)
Here good to see the red eye on the left side


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0511_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11034&title=thmarcianus&cat=500)
and here the black eye on the right side


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0522_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11036&title=thmarcianus&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0525_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11037&title=thmarcianus&cat=500)


and now, together with an
orange sister:
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0492_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11038&title=img-0492-1200x800&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0502_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11039&title=img-0502-1200x800&cat=500)

[Mexicofan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0505_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11040&title=img-0505-1200x800&cat=500)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0487_1200x800.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11041&title=img-0487-1200x800&cat=500)
And here an other normal pattern but more yellow sister only not so good to se on the foto

[ProXimuS]

That's such a cool little guy!! He's like the terminator:cool:

What are your plans with this kid?(just very curious!)

[Invisible Snake]

He looks fantastic! You should name him Enigma :P

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking group.

[ConcinusMan]

Very interesting snake.