ID Confusion

[katach]

Hi all. I was taking some pics of Mocha and noticed that she has 8 upper lip scales on both sides. Now NW typically have 7. I was hoping her ID could be nailed down before quarantine is over. Here are a couple pics. If more are needed let me know.

598659875988

[Steveo]

Looks like a northwestern to me. Keep in mind that labial counts are more of a "usually" than an "always".

Quote from a guide: 7 labial scales (occasionally 8, rarely 6) 8-9 lower labials (rarely 7 or 10)

[Stefan-A]

I still don't want to call it a vagrans, but there's definitely something in that face that reminds me of them.

[Steveo]

I still don't want to call it a vagrans, but there's definitely something in that face that reminds me of them.

Probably the 8 upper labials ;)

[Stefan-A]

Probably the 8 upper labials ;)
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/vagrans02052008-8.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/5987d1342556497-id-confusion-imag1211.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/vagrans02052008-2.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome photos Stefan and awesome snakes. (Not meant to derail this thread)

[guidofatherof5]

Not sure if this will help being "Usually"

T.ordinoides- Dorsal scales usually in a maximum of 17 rows.
T.elegans- Dorsal scales usually in a maximum of 19 or 21 rows.

Or here's an idea Kat maxillary teeth count.:D
T.ordinoides- 16 to 20
T.elegans- 14 to 24

[ssssnakeluvr]

definitely ordinoides... pattern also says ordinoides.... row of spots along vertebral stripe, row along the side stripe... gap between so its not a real checker pattern

[katach]

Thanks Don! I was hoping she is. She is just unique. :)

[ssssnakeluvr]

she is a beauty!