Accidental Breeding -- Help!

[Sonya610]

Okay so this morning my little Flame is laying on top of the 16 mo old Red Spotted Garter....

At first I thought "That is so cute" then realized...."Wait! What are they doing?" (I thought they were both males).

So what happens now? She is only 16 months old, will the breeding take? Or is she too young? How long is the gestation? If she is pregnant will the litter be small due to her small size and young age?

Obviously I am separating them. If she is pregnant this creates an ugly situation that I am not looking forward to dealing with.

[kibakiba]

Have you seen a lock up? The female normally drags the male arounds. There could have been a lockup even if you didn't see it. Gestation is 3 months. She is really young, but some people claim that they can breed at an age around that.
If she is pregnant and has a litter... Make sure that they can not breed, not together, not with any other snake. Some might put the babies down immediately, but I'm against it. There are people here who would be willing to adopt the babies just to give them a life where they can be happy, but have no chance of breeding.

[Sonya610]

Yeah they were definitely locked up. If she is pregnant I know about the concern over cross breeds, I would likely decide to keep a couple and euthanize the others immediately because I know if I start raising them "hoping" to find them homes I could end up with 20 snakes.

These are my only two garters, only reptiles for that matter, I am not a big time herp collector with a snake room and such (and I don't want to be, I have 6 dogs, mostly rescues that demand a lot of attention).

[kimbosaur]

I disagree with euthenizing the babies as well. It wasn't their fault that they were brought into this situation. Yes, it was no doubt an accident, but it was an accident on your part. It was a risk you took when you decided to house different species together, and it seems unethical to make the snakes pay for your accident. At the same time, it would also be unethical if they were to end up in the wrong hands...

It's your decision and it's a tough one to make. At least you're willing to go through putting them down rather than selling them off to random homes.

[Sonya610]

I disagree with euthenizing the babies as well. It wasn't their fault that they were brought into this situation..

Realistically I don't know if I could actually do it, if they were sluggish unaware little newborns maybe, but I suspect that is not the case. I have never bred any animal (even my show dogs years ago), I rescue, I do not breed. If the litter was small I could probably keep them, but 20 snakes is another matter entirely.

How often do these breedings take? Is it hit or miss as to whether she conceives? I don't know anything about snake breeding.

[kerensa]

This is unfortunate indeed. I also disagree with euthanizing the young. I would also disagree with euthanizing kittens simply because they were a cross breed. :( At least you do not plan on releasing them.
There very well may be people here who would give them homes.

[kerensa]

It is possible that they are not fertile together. That is the best hope. next best is that there are few young. full gestation is around 90 days. (I've not bred, but that is what I've read) Next best hope is that you can find homes for single young with individuals here. Next best is that you keep them. last is that you euthanize them via CO2.

yes they will likely be alert, active little things full of curiosity and wonder- like any other baby.

[Selkielass]

With young snakes and no brumation, it is quite likely that their fertility is low.
separate them and wait and see if the female even flattens up. Even if she does, few or no viable young may result.
Don’t panic and don’t feel guilty. Do the best you can given your situation and available options.

[kibakiba]

I'll take in one of the babies in if you'll be willing to ship it off to me. I'll pay for the shipping, too. That is, if she is gravid and has any babies you don't want.

[MCwyo]

Bummer! I'd hate to see the babies get put down, but I completely understand that keeping 20+ babies is not practical. I'd be happy to give one a home, for the cost of shiping, if she dose end up preggers.

Just out of curiosity, dose crossbreeding ever happen in the wild? I would think that it would be bound to naturally occur at least once in a while, especially when there is such a habitat/region overlap for many of the species.

[SnakesInCoconuts]

I strongly suggest trying to find homes for the babies instead of euthanizing them. Use the best options first..

[kueluck]

I don't think you need to worry about finding homes for them, IF you have live babies. Remember where you posted this. :D

[kerensa]

yes, It looks like if there are any young; and its unlikely there will be large numbers of them, that you will be able to find enough people here to foster them.

[chris-uk]

Intergrades happen in the wild between some species, it probably happens more often than most people think, however the ranges of T. s. concinnus and T. s. parietalis don't cross so you'd wouldn't find this cross in the wild. Hopefully the lockup was unsuccessful, there's a good chance with young snakes that haven't brumated that they won't have been successful (as Selkielass has already pointed out).

For balance, as most people so far would oppose euthanising the litter. I'd possibly keep one myself, and I'd consider giving one to someone I trusted. I would euthanise any that I couldn't house with people who knew what they were taking on and would promise to never breed it. However, it would only become a problem if it was a large litter but I would euthanise any I couldn't keep or cofidently home - garters are difficult enough to come by in the UK (especially concinnus) and the last thing we need are good bloodlines affected by intergrades when someone who doesn't really care about garters decides that breeding their intergrade is a good idea.

[guidofatherof5]

This is such a difficult and touchy situation. I really hope no babies will be born and to be honest stillborns/slugs would be a blessing in this situation.
Please don't take my comments wrong but being a purest this type of situation can be very detrimental to the hobby and the genetic future of both species. The situation is compounded by the fact those individual snakes are hard to obtain on that side of the world. To have hybrids mixed in would be terrible.
Then there is the side of me that believes all life deserves a chance, even hybrids.
I certainly don't envy your situation.
Please weigh every aspect of this situation before making a decision with regards to any babies that are born.

You have separated the snakes, right?

[thamneil]

An idea came into my head the other day after discussing hybrids with a friend. Is there any way to castrate a snake? I know it's a pretty far fetched idea, but I'm sure it could be done.

[chris-uk]

An idea came into my head the other day after discussing hybrids with a friend. Is there any way to castrate a snake? I know it's a pretty far fetched idea, but I'm sure it could be done.
I'm sure you could pop out both hemipenes and cut both of them off. However, ethnically I'd have more problems with this than I would with accidental intergrades. In the same way that I find removing fangs or venom glands abhorrent. You don't surgically alter an animal to make it easier to keep, you keep the animal in an environment which suits it.

[Invisible Snake]

An idea came into my head the other day after discussing hybrids with a friend. Is there any way to castrate a snake? I know it's a pretty far fetched idea, but I'm sure it could be done.

I'm against that and circumcisions!

[EasternGirl]

A difficult situation indeed. But as others have said...I do not agree with euthanizing the babies. You need to wait and see what happens...she could pass jellies, have several stillborns...or they all might be stillborn...you could end up with only a couple babies. My female eastern had a litter of 40 and only 3 made it. If it comes down to euthanizing them...I will take one. I will try to come up with the shipping fee as well. If I were you, I would make a list of people that have offered to take a baby...and should she have live young, contact us by PM when the babies are born. I wish you the best of luck. :)

[Selkielass]

I, actually, would like to be able to neuter my companion snakes if it could be done safely and humanely as with dogs, cats.rabbits and other domestic companions. Every vet and local breeder I've talked to thought. I was crazy.
(Local reptile people tell me breeders usually euthanize males with injured hemipenes for a long sad list of reasons.
I have considered having Abby's ovaries removed- her round of jellies and asingle unexpected stillborn were very hard on her. She was passing jellies for over a week, and remained out of sorts and grimly for a month. She is still somewhat lethargic, and I believe that is partly due to the lack of stimulation from a companion.

There are health benefits to neutering mammals - reduced cancer for one. Nobody seems to know or be saying much about health benefits vs risks in reptiles. Id like to know more.

Pet ferrets must be neutered before they leave a licensed breeders hands (in Michigan) to prevent them from becoming an invasive species. With all the legislative concerns about reptiles and their invasive potential I believe that this is an option that urgently needs study.

[Sonya610]

Thank you all for your input. When I realized they had bred I sort of panicked and began imagining the worst case scenario....discovering 20-30 little garters and having no idea how to handle it. I really don't think I could ever euthanize a healthy baby, I originally said that was an option but after having really thought about it it isn't.

She really isn't very big so I was panicking over nothing. On the off chance she does manage to give birth to viable babies a small number would not be a problem and I would definitely keep them and no doubt adore them.

[kibakiba]

Is it worth the side effects, though? Dogs, at least, when neutered are less energetic and I believe they gain weight easier? I think that's what it was. Not that I really care, not a pet person... Only reptiles and such.

[Selkielass]

Is it worth the side effects, though? Dogs, at least, when neutered are less energetic and I believe they gain weight easier? I think that's what it was. Not that I really care, not a pet person... Only reptiles and such.

That is what I believe needs studying.
I also think that if breeders of the larger allegedly invasive species self regulated and neutered and marked (chipped. Perhaps?) All animals sold as pets, not breeders, that the movement to completely ban ownership could be considerably weakened.

You are *definately* a pet person. Your pets are reptiles and you obviously adore them.
I love mine too and Id hate to be deprived of my right to keep snakes taken away due to knee-jerk. Overregulation. (My city already has a ban on 'exotics and farm animals'.

[MCwyo]

Is it worth the side effects, though? Dogs, at least, when neutered are less energetic and I believe they gain weight easier? I think that's what it was. Not that I really care, not a pet person... Only reptiles and such.

I'm a huge dog person :) I would say that no, neutering dose not make a dog less energetic or fat. That has more to do with proper diet and excersize. In many large breed dogs, nutering too early will actually cause the dog to grow tall and lanky. Neutering dose reduce natural hormonal aggression and dominant behavior.

[ProXimuS]

I would also say spaying and neutering doesn't necessarilly make them less energetic. I know millions of crazy spayed/neutered dogs:p It does also seem to change alot of dogs appearance, when done at an early age, like already stated. Alot will have a more "puppy" look to them.

Growing up my dog I had as a kid wasn't spayed, we got her that way and just didn't spay her, because we knew she wouldn't be around males. My dog I have now is also not spayed. Now that I'm an "adult" and am the one to make those types of decisons for my own pet, I feel kind of like alot of men and their male dogs. She's a little lady:) She has her natural hormones/instincts. And she does get kept on lockdown just before, during, and a little after being in heat. But I guess I just like the idea of them being "natural," unless unintentional breeding can't be prevented.



Also a huge dog person:D

[kibakiba]

That is what I believe needs studying.
I also think that if breeders of the larger allegedly invasive species self regulated and neutered and marked (chipped. Perhaps?) All animals sold as pets, not breeders, that the movement to completely ban ownership could be considerably weakened.

You are *definately* a pet person. Your pets are reptiles and you obviously adore them.
I love mine too and Id hate to be deprived of my right to keep snakes taken away due to knee-jerk. Overregulation. (My city already has a ban on 'exotics and farm animals'.


I meant pet as in dogs or cats, anything with fur or feathers kind of pet. I'm allergic and I don't enjoy dogs barking, like my moms dog.. who is barking every last second of the day, because she thinks she owns the neighborhood.. And not to mention she barks and runs to my door every time I make a sound when I move... And maybe my moms cat is the only one, but she's stupid... She walks right under my feet while I'm walking in the dark.. And she already knows I'll accidentally kick her or step on her, but every single night. She also knows I'm not the one who feeds her or changes her water.. When I go into the kitchen, she runs in and scarfs down all of her food and begs me for more.. She literally attaches herself to my leg, when my mom is just 2 feet away. And our Macaw... He saved my life when I was 13, but I can't handle loud noises... If you take your eyes off of him or pause talking, he squawks continuously. So, when he's not getting attention (he gets 3-5 hours of mild attention...) he's doing nothing but squawk.

My snakes don't make any noise at all, and they don't injure me constantly.

[kimbosaur]

I used to be completely against neutering/spaying. My position on the matter was that it is unnatural and unnecessary for responsible pet owners. I mean, I see why shelters and rescues need to, but I never saw a reason to "alter" a natural specimen just because.

However, I now see it diffedrently. Especially for male dogs, the urge to breed can cause a lot of unnecessary stress and tension in the body. It's like, imagine having this extra energy that never really gets fully released. This could end up causing other health issues. So now I believe that (especially for male dogs) neutering from an early age (before they ever feel that urge) is healthier. Yes, it's unnatural, but being a domesticated animal is unnatural. It's not like they have that natural freedom to mate and breed with whom they please. Unless the owner is a professional, responsible breeder, I think dogs should be neutered/spayed.

[ProXimuS]

I do see your point as well. I also feel like part of being a responsible pet owner is having an appropriate outlet for their energy. Whether it be daily, weekly, etc. Whatever the animals needs are that was decided to be taken in by the human.

[kimbosaur]

That's true too, but I don't think it's the same. I think it would be like telling a 40-year-old virgin to just go for daily jogs. :rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

So... Would you castrate a horny teenager to prevent him from screwing and impregnating girls? Lol.

[Invisible Snake]

That's true too, but I don't think it's the same. I think it would be like telling a 40-year-old virgin to just go for daily jogs. :rolleyes:

So should we start castrating priests? On second thought that might be a good idea!

[ProXimuS]

That's true too, but I don't think it's the same. I think it would be like telling a 40-year-old virgin to just go for daily jogs. :rolleyes:


Well, I guess, it wouldn't be a "solution" but I would think it would help them out more than being a sedintary 40-year-old-virgin. They would probably be a less stressed out 40-year-old-virgin:)

[Sonya610]

There is really nothing "natural" about the hormones/breeding drives of dogs anymore. Their predecessors, Wolves, and other wild cannids such as Coyotes have very strict breeding practices, they do not breed unless they have a mate/pack and a designated territory to support the litter. The females come into heat at most once a year and generally only one female in a given pack will actually have puppies, the rest of the pack/family work to raise those puppies.

Domestic dogs have lost all of that, the females come in season twice a year and they will breed with multiple males, the males play absolutely no part in raising the young, the females have absolutely no natural support system, all of that has been taken away from them via domestication.

I have always spayed my female dogs before the first heat cycle (except show dogs), the males are another matter and that is done on a case by case basis to keep the aggression level down among the males (if they are mine). Early neutering will definitely have an effect on them, especially the males as they will never gain the muscle mass and bone development of a real adult male dog. The hype to neuter all males is in large part because society as a whole can't handle dogs that are even slightly protective or aggressive.

[Selkielass]

So... Would you castrate a horny teenager to prevent him from screwing and impregnating girls? Lol.

I'd make damn sure he knew about condoms and facing consequences of his actions! (lol)

Human sentience aside tho, we are in the early stages of domesticating pet reptiles;

we are selecting for unusual or extreme coloration and temperament and reproductive traits that 'work' in captivity.

I've already said I 'm in favor of humane neutering of pets not intended (for whatever reason) for breeding. I just want too know if there are any *known* reasons why this would or would not be a humane option for reptiles.
Studies may not exist, but has anyone had an animal (reptile) that was sterilized due to disease or accident that lived on as a pet?
Stories, please?!

[stevenrudge]

l've had young Garters breed accidentally at 12 months old,so yes its very possible that shes ready to breed, cross-breeding do's definitely happen in their wild state,where spp overlap so do not cull them,l personally think that its cruel to euthaniz any healthy animal unless it has any serious health issues that cannot be dealt with

[Stefan-A]

I recommend euthanasia. Fortunately, the clutch is likely to be relatively small.

I don't think it's cruel, I don't think it's wrong, I don't think it's unnecessary. And this is a clutch that shouldn't have existed in the first place. If there was a way to abort them now, that's what I'd recommend.

Captivity isn't nature and the ranges of T. s. sirtalis and T. s. concinnus don't overlap even if it was.

[stevenrudge]

Harsh and wrong,if they can be tracked to pet homes then all well and good,granted there not to be bred with but to cull them would be morally wrong,for good or bad theres lots of animals that should not (exist)but they do,l'm a purest in that l like pure lines that can be traced,but l also except that in captivity intergading/hybrids/various morphs can and will happen,its how we treat them and trace and bred them thats the issue.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i agree with Stefan and Steven, for me both sides of the coin have their pros and cons:confused:

[Stefan-A]

,but l also except that in captivity intergading/hybrids/various morphs can and will happen,its how we treat them and trace and bred them thats the issue.
They can and will happen, the issue is damage control. Containment.

Once they're out of the breeder's hands, they're gone. There's no getting the toothpaste back in that tube.

[kibakiba]

Which is why she could send them to responsible and smart people. People who wouldn't allow them to breed at all. **** happens, there's no stopping that... But there is no reason, imo, to just murder baby snakes when it isn't their fault for being born. Why not kill the parents of the babies while your at it, stop it from happening once and for all. :rolleyes:

[stevenrudge]

l have bought gravid females W/C from importers that when they have given birth the said neonate were clearly intergades,l sold them as pets,no serious breeder of any species would want to breed from intergades,unless the species involved were in anyway restricted or endangered,there is no issue,if the species are commonly obtainable then any resulting intergades can and do go to the pet trade with no harm done.

[stevenrudge]

l do have issues with people who seem to see euthaniz as a means of (damage control/containment)that is a very big genie out of the bottle,and once out where do you stop?

[EasternGirl]

Wow...this thread took an interesting turn in a relatively short period of time! Just to put my opinions on record...I think euthanizing animals that are not sick or suffering is "playing God" and I for one, do not want that on my conscience...and I think it is cruel. Dogs and cats need to be neutered to prevent cancers if they are not going to breed. If you have ever watched a dog die of cancer because he wasn't neutered...well, I have and it was awful. Also, for male dogs it can be necessary in terms of quelling agression. We haven't neutered my chihuahua yet and he is becoming more and more aggressive and humping and peeing on everything in sight. However, I have read that neutering smaller animals...like rodents, for example...can be extremely tricky and dangerous. At the least, you have to have an exotic vet with experience in neutering that type of animal. In guinea pigs alone...the death rate post-neutering is very high...so I imagine it would be pretty unsafe for a small snake. That is my two cents.

[kerensa]

For me the issue is very simple. I view life as an incredibly sacred gift. I see an animals life as being just as precious to it as mine is to me. They after all only have the one also. Killing an healthy animal simply for my convenience in not having to house it is not something I could accept doing. I know others who do not share this view. I separated my parakeets years ago into one per cage after several unwanted clutches. (I ended up with 32 parakeets and it took me ages to find them good homes) separating animals to avoid unwanted young is always preferable to killing the young in my opinion. Finding homes is always preferable to killing the young. If one simply can not resist killing them, I always vote for painless and quick.

[Sonya610]

l do have issues with people who seem to see euthaniz as a means of (damage control/containment)that is a very big genie out of the bottle,and once out where do you stop?

Yeah and I have issues with people that import animals and breed them for profit to supply the "pet trade". The genie has been out of the bottle in the US for a very very long time, reptiles or otherwise. Do not sit there and presume to judge me, I have never EVER bred an animal for any reason, not even when I had dogs with AKC Championship titles, I have never had any "accidentally" pregnant animals before either. I do not breed because I know how most pets end up.

[Stefan-A]

Which is why she could send them to responsible and smart people. People who wouldn't allow them to breed at all.
And suppose those people don't want them? Or find themselves in a situation where they have to give up their snakes? Or you misjudge those smart, responsible people and they turn out to be dumb and irresponsible? Or suppose the hybrids escape? I think it's time for a hybrid non-proliferation treaty.


But there is no reason, imo, to just murder baby snakes when it isn't their fault for being born.
I think the reasons are good enough and not one of them happens to be "Because they were born".


Why not kill the parents of the babies while your at it, stop it from happening once and for all. :rolleyes:
Because it doesn't make any sense at all.

[Stefan-A]

l do have issues with people who seem to see euthaniz as a means of (damage control/containment)that is a very big genie out of the bottle,and once out where do you stop?
Guess what I have issues with.


clearly intergades,l sold them

[stevenrudge]

Yes l sold them to responsible people who wanted them as nice pet snakes,nothing more and your problem is?

[Sonya610]

For me the issue is very simple. I view life as an incredibly sacred gift. I see an animals life as being just as precious to it as mine is to me. They after all only have the one also. Killing an healthy animal simply for my convenience in not having to house it is not something I could accept doing. I know others who do not share this view. I separated my parakeets years ago into one per cage after several unwanted clutches. (I ended up with 32 parakeets and it took me ages to find them good homes) separating animals to avoid unwanted young is always preferable to killing the young in my opinion. Finding homes is always preferable to killing the young. If one simply can not resist killing them, I always vote for painless and quick.

So now I am the heartless baby animal killer. I have spent my entire adult life with multiple animals, I have done rescue for years, I have sacrificed greatly to help stray dogs that decided to come to my doorstep pregnant and desperate, and I did right by them and their puppies, despite the stress and expense.

For those that get on their high horse and judge, how many animals have you bred and sold? Do you actually know how they all ended up? Or is that NOT your problem? You sold them to "good homes or collectors" and that is all that matters, right? Yeah, sure it is. When you sold them it seemed like a great idea, who cares what happened afterwards.

[kerensa]

I do not presume to judge you, I am sorry you have chosen not to extend me the same. I clearly stated that my views were "for me". It was in fact the first thing I said. Since you have decided to become unpleasant and jump to conclusions for your own reason, you can continue this discussion with yourself. I simply will not continue it. I have no need for additional sources of confrontation.


So now I am the heartless baby animal killer. I have spent my entire adult life with multiple animals, I have done rescue for years, I have sacrificed greatly to help stray dogs that decided to come to my doorstep pregnant and desperate, and I did right by them and their puppies, despite the stress and expense.

For those that get on their high horse and judge, how many animals have you bred and sold? Do you actually know how they all ended up? Or is that NOT your problem? You sold them to "good homes or collectors" and that is all that matters, right? Yeah, sure it is. When you sold them it seemed like a great idea, who cares what happened afterwards.

[Invisible Snake]

This thread is getting heated, I say we all take a step back and reserve our suggestions/recommendations until we have confirmed that the snake is gravid.

[Sonya610]

This thread is getting heated, I say we all take a step back and reserve our suggestions/recommendations until we have confirmed that the snake is gravid.

In the unlikely event that she is gravid she will probably only have a very small number of viable young, at best (I first posted in a panic, I have since calmed down and received valuable advice regarding the reality of the situation). If that happens I will be here asking for advice on rearing baby garters and they will remain here, they will never enter the "trade" or threaten the fancy.

Hearing breeders lecture me on the "value of life" really irks me greatly.

[kerensa]

Hearing pet breeders lecture me on the "value of life" really irks me greatly.

I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that as of post number 21 you had decided to keep any young that might have occurred. The thread after that appears to me to have become a general discussion of views on euthanasia, neutering and other topics, with people sharing their personal views and reasons. I myself never thought you were going to take anything in that part of the discussion as aimed at you. I regret that you have. I assure you I have not directed any comments to you (other than my earlier suggestion that if there were more then you could care for, that there are likely people here who would provide appropriate homes.)

[Stefan-A]

For those that get on their high horse and judge, how many animals have you bred and sold? Do you actually know how they all ended up? Or is that NOT your problem? You sold them to "good homes or collectors" and that is all that matters, right? Yeah, sure it is. When you sold them it seemed like a great idea, who cares what happened afterwards.
I'm going to take the liberty to answer some these questions, as far as they apply to me.

1. Only about 30-40. A small number compared to many actual breeders.
2. Nope, I don't know how they ended up, I know at least some of them survived the first year with a new owner. I know some of them changed homes after I sold them. All of those seem to have lost the documentation I provided.
3. I don't know whether the homes were good, but I know for damn certain that I dodged the bullet a couple of times by not selling to certain individuals, who seemed sketchy.

[Sonya610]

I'm going to take the liberty to answer some these questions, as far as they apply to me.

3. I don't know whether the homes were good, but I know for damn certain that I dodged the bullet a couple of times by not selling to certain individuals, who seemed sketchy.

Yeah well no worries Stephan. When placing animals I check things out carefully. That means asking you and a couple of others.

[guidofatherof5]

This thread is getting heated, I say we all take a step back and reserve our suggestions/recommendations until we have confirmed that the snake is gravid.


Thought I'd give this a bump. In case it was missed.;)

[Stefan-A]

Thought I'd give this a bump. In case it was missed.;)
So be it.

BS removed.

[kimbosaur]

In my opinion, euthanasia should be a last resort, but selling off babies to individuals you cannot trust 100% or maintain regular contact with is not an option. In other words, I don't think babies should be killed just for being a hybrid. At the same time, they shouldn't be sold just to be kept alive. Housing mixed species that have unconfirmed sexes together is a risk, and part of being a responsible pet owner means willing to accept the consequences of that risk (whether that mean becoming a crazy snake lady or a baby killer).

To complicate this discussion even more, this is taken from provincial SPCA act:
"Every person who owns or has custody or care of an animal shall comply with the prescribed standards of care with respect to every animal that the person owns or has custody or care of. 2008, c. 16, s. 8."

This is where the neuter/spay issue kind of comes back in. I understand that it's different with dogs breeds because they all belong to the same species, but the principles are similar. What if a respected dog breeder were to euthanize all puppies that were not born "true to breed". It can be argued that these dogs are "unviable" in this sense. Breeders ensure these individuals are sold on a spay/neuter contract so that they will not muddy up the integrity of the breed. This obviously cannot be done with reptiles, so does that justify euthanasia of healthy specimens?

If we are indeed responsible for maintaining the species rather than the well-being of individuals, then where should that stop? If we take it to the extreme, than perhaps we shouldn't be keeping any non-native species at all. What if those specimens were to escape and breed with the wild population? Unlikely-yes, impossible-no. Isn't prevention better than intervention?

(NOTE: I am speaking in a general sense about the topic! I realize the OP has already found a solution.)

[stevenrudge]

in case you forgot the intergades l had were naturally occurring,so would you have had these culled?

[Stefan-A]

This is where the neuter/spay issue kind of comes back in. I understand that it's different with dogs breeds because they all belong to the same species, but the principles are similar. What if a respected dog breeder were to euthanize all puppies that were not born "true to breed". It can be argued that these dogs are "unviable" in this sense. Breeders ensure these individuals are sold on a spay/neuter contract so that they will not muddy up the integrity of the breed. This obviously cannot be done with reptiles, so does that justify euthanasia of healthy specimens?
Regarding euthanasia in the case of reptiles AND dogs, the justifications are immaterial and the call should be (isn't necessarily) the owner's.


If we are indeed responsible for maintaining the species rather than the well-being of individuals, then where should that stop? If we take it to the extreme, than perhaps we shouldn't be keeping any non-native species at all. What if those specimens were to escape and breed with the wild population? Unlikely-yes, impossible-no. Isn't prevention better than intervention?
I don't think that's an extreme position at all. That's a quite responsible one. The alternative would be to keep species that are incapable of surviving in that climate.

[Stefan-A]

in case you forgot the intergades l had were naturally occurring,so would you have had these culled?
Those individuals weren't naturally occurring anymore, so yes.

[kimbosaur]

Regarding euthanasia in the case of reptiles AND dogs, the justifications are immaterial and the call should be (isn't necessarily) the owner's.

So you believe owning an animal allows one the right to euthanize it without any cause?



I don't think that's an extreme position at all. That's a quite responsible one. The alternative would be to keep species that are incapable of surviving in that climate.

It's an extreme in the sense that it is much more idealistic than it is realistic.


I guess it is the case of two combating perspectives: "the scientist" vs. "the pet owner". Where the pet owner sees his/her animals more as family members, the scientist sees them more as subjects.

[Stefan-A]

So you believe owning an animal allows one the right to euthanize it without any cause?
With all the things you are allowed to subject your animal to, why not euthanasia?


It's an extreme in the sense that it is much more idealistic than it is realistic.
It's a stroke of the pen away.


I guess it is the case of two combating perspectives: "the scientist" vs. "the pet owner". Where the pet owner sees his/her animals more as family members, the scientist sees them more as subjects.
That's a dichotomy I don't subscribe to.

[kimbosaur]

With all the things you are allowed to subject your animal to, why not euthanasia?

This same argument could be used to justify anything. Why not starve them, beat them? Why not allow puppy mills to just do their thing? Why not allow pit bull owners to let their dogs fight to the death for a kick and a few extra bucks?



That's a dichotomy I don't subscribe to.

Not really a dichotomy - I believe many participants of this discussion are a little bit of both in one way or another.

[Stefan-A]

This same argument could be used to justify anything. Why not starve them, beat them? Why not allow puppy mills to just do their thing? Why not allow pit bull owners to let their dogs fight to the death for a kick and a few extra bucks?
Not really. We are talking about things that are allowed. Most countries do prohibit unnecessary suffering and euthanasia certainly doesn't fall under it, provided it's performed correctly. Neither does power feeding and running the reptile equivalent of puppy mills, intentional inbreeding, production of deformed individuals, production of lines with various congenital disorders, hybrids etc. Among all the things you can do to snakes, that's "okay" in the community, euthanasia is among the most humane.


Not really a dichotomy - I believe many participants of this discussion are a little bit of both in one way or another.
The way you presented it, it literally was a dichotomy, but I accept your clarification.

[kimbosaur]

We are talking about things that are allowed.


Thanks for the clarification

[stevenrudge]

Your not making any sense,So just to recap-the W/C female l bought that was gravid from a natural mating,in the wild that turned out to be a naturally occuring intergade,would you have had them culled? bearing in mind that this was not a product of captivity?

[Stefan-A]

Your not making any sense,So just to recap-the W/C female l bought that was gravid from a natural mating,in the wild that turned out to be a naturally occuring intergade,would you have had them culled? bearing in mind that this was not a product of captivity?
I'm going to assign you a little bit of homework. Your assignment will be to:
A. figure out why I have a problem with hybrids (which "intergrades" are)
B. figure out, based on what you've learned in part A, whether it makes a lick of difference whether the mating happened in the wild or not.

Good luck!

[stevenrudge]

Patronising and silly,first you argue that captive intergading is wrong,now you say that naturally occuring intergading is wrong,and you get intergading and hybrids mixed up!,and when your illogical and frankly stupid argument is shown to be wrong you get insulting. l cannot be bothered with your silly mixed up nonsensical rubbish

[stevenrudge]

PS l'll take your apology by private massage

[Stefan-A]

captive intergading
Doesn't exist. Intergradation is something that happens on a population level, in a geographical area. It's a phenomenon within population ecology. It's not what you get when two individuals of different subspecies mate.


now you say that naturally occuring intergading is wrong
I said nothing of the sort.


,and you get intergading and hybrids mixed up!
Actually, no. But I understand why it would confuse you.


,and when your illogical and frankly stupid argument is shown to be wrong you get insulting.
You can't seriously be suggesting that misrepresenting my position and my arguments could possibly count as "showing me wrong". As for insults, I don't think I've subjected you to any.


l cannot be bothered with your silly mixed up nonsensical rubbish
All righty, then.


PS l'll take your apology by private massage
Remember to inform me when you receive my apology.
ps. I've heard that PMs arrive sooner if you hold your breath.