Thiaminase

[Mandi0284]

I went to petsmart today looking for frozen silversides. I found them and one of the workers asked me what i was feeding. I told her i had a young garter snake who was feeding on mostly fish.....which seem to be his prefered food. he will eat worms, but with a lot of coaxing and scenting.

Anyway she asked me if i wanted goldfish. i told her i had been advised to stay away from goldfish as feeders for garters. she told me that their fish were parasite and chemical free.

i was wondering what is Thiaminase?
how does it affect the fish and thus make them toxic to our serpent companions?

[Steveo]

It's an enzyme that breaks down thiamine, which is otherwise known at vitamin B1. I'm not sure what function it has in fish biology, but it causes a B1 deficiency in snakes. In humans, a B1 deficiency is the cause of the disease known as beriberi.

[Invisible Snake]

In snakes I believe thiamanese causes a neurological disorder, causing them to have convultions etc. and eventually death.

[katach]

Thiaminase also had nothing to do with the breeding or condition of the fish. It is naturally occurring in the fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Thiaminase also had nothing to do with the breeding or condition of the fish. It is naturally occurring in the fish.

Agreed. You also can not compensate for thiaminase (feed more B1).
It is a horrible death for snakes to suffer.

[Mandi0284]

Good to know. I dont like goldfish anyway lol.

She told me that the fish in the store were Thiaminase free and that they breed out stuff like that to make them safe. I know that that is not the case. I understand wanting to make sure the other customers feel that the fish are safe, but i guess not a lot of people know much about garter snakes.

[thamneil]

I think there was probably a more suitable thread to put this in but I wasn't able to dig it up. I have a question about feeding thiaminase containing fish to your snakes.


Ive been researching Nerodia lately, and many of the photos and articles I come across portray the snakes eating bullheads. These catfish are a confirmed thiaminase carrier. Do you think that as part of a varied diet, thiaminase containing fish are ok? Or is it possible that Nerodia is more tolerant to the enzyme?

[ConcinusMan]

Agreed. You also can not compensate for thiaminase (feed more B1).

It's a slippery slope. You cannot possibly know how much thiaminase is present in the snake, and therefore, you cannot know how much B1 to give the snake to counteract it. It would be like balancing a "teeter-totter" on the head of a pin. On the one side is thiaminase. On the other is B1. A little too much on either side is bad and the balance is lost, the snake dies.

Another problem is, you can feed thiaminase to a garter for years and the damage to the nervous system can be cumulative. In other words, by the time you see any symptoms, it might already be too late to do anything about it.

And that sort of addresses Neil's question. Yes, some snakes might be more or less vulnerable to disease from the enzyme, and whether disease appears or not, can be related to how much is ingested, the peak amount in the snake, the ratio of B1 vs thiaminase ingested, at what stage of life the imbalance occurs, and the cumulative effects of that balance over the lifetime of the snake.

Have a healthy snake that has been ingesting it for several years? So what? Doesn't mean it's not harmful. It's not too late to cut that enzyme out of the diet. I don't know of any snake that's going to drop dead because it ate goldfish or rosies for a week or even a few months. Best just to avoid thiaminase altogether if at all possible. The potential for the disease is there, and that's enough to warrant avoiding it.

I don't know of any case where eating bacon or smoking a few cigarettes in your lifetime is going to make a person automatically drop dead overnight either, but consume enough of it, for long enough, and you'll surely increase your risk of dying young of heart disease. Get it?

It's just plain bad for them. Anything can be poison. You just have to consume enough of it.

[infernalis]

It's not poison.

In other words, if your snakes need food, and all you can get is some Rosy reds, then go ahead.

It's long term, continual feeding of thiaminase rich fish that will lead to damage one day down the road.

Wild snakes (and other reptiles) don't reference books or post on forums prior to eating, so if a small bullhead or catfish showed up, it will get ate.

[ConcinusMan]

Oops. Sorry. I added that last sentence after you posted, Wayne.

Think of it like smoking, if you will. It's poison. I can smoke an entire case of cigarettes and not die. Doesn't mean it isn't poison. Just depends on how much you take, and how long you take it.

Now, I'd rather my snakes not smoke.:p (or eat thiaminase) It's not allowed in my home even when/if it's me doing the smoking.


It's not poison. It's long term, continual feeding of thiaminase rich fish that will lead to damage one day down the road.

Yes, agreed. Bacon isn't poison either, but eat a pound a day for 20 years and watch what happens.http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

[d_virginiana]

I've always wondered how much an individual snake's sensitivity comes into play with Thiaminase as well. Over the years I've seen threads where snakes only show symptoms after years of a thiaminase-containing diet, but I've also seen a couple where someone fed their new pet on rosy reds for three months and it started convulsing. In human neuroscience, there are huge amounts of person-to-person variability for any given disease. Makes sense that that would hold true to some extent for snakes.

Bottom line, why take the risk if you don't have to? :p

[Stefan-A]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5722-academic-nonsense-scientific-info-thiamine-thiaminase.html

[ConcinusMan]

Good to know. I don't like goldfish anyway lol.

Like, dislike, doesn't matter. Many of our snakes "like" goldfish just fine. Doesn't matter. Some people like opiates, skydiving, war, drilling for oil, cutting themselves, eating raw fish, and being shot at. I like bacon, beef steak, ****************, caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, and deserts. Doesn't mean it's good for our health. Doesn't mean we should just consume without regard to our health. I don't like hominy. Doesn't mean I shouldn't eat it. It's probably good for me.

Need I go on about likes and dislikes?

I know you were just "LoL" about it but I thought I would clear the air about "like & dislike".


She told me that the fish in the store were Thiaminase free and that they breed out stuff like that to make them safe.

She likely told you what she thought you wanted to hear so you would buy the fish. Even if you decided against buying said fish, it is of no consequence. In other words, buy it, I win. Don't buy it, I don't lose anything.


I know that that is not the case. .

No, you don't really know anything about it and that's what they're counting on.


I understand wanting to make sure the other customers feel that the fish are safe

Well, there you go. Do I really need to spell it out?

Bottom line is, we don't know fully the impacts of thiaminase containing fish. We don't know the levels of thiaminase in everything we feed to our snakes. We only know that this has been a source of misery, death, and illness in snakes in the past. We also only know (so far) that it doesn't hurt a damn thing to avoid feeding this to our snakes.

For now, we go with what information we have. We know that certain fish contain significant levels of thiaminase. We know that thiaminase can have serious consequences. Isn't it wise to just avoid those known sources of thiaminase for now?

Keep in mind you're looking at a guy who fed his snakes goldfish over the years, but only "in a pinch" and those snakes lived an extraordinarily long life. Still, there is cause for concern.

When I did that, the thiaminase issue was only just being discovered.

If we are overly concerned and avoid it, then no harm done. If we are complacent about it, well ****, just go ahead and stuff your snakes with goldfish every day and see what happens.

I've had a bit of time to look at the content in the link that Stefan provided. I know it's time consuming, but I suggest that if this thiaminase issue is on your mind. Go ahead and read.

http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00597Fish-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Don't take anything as "fact". Just get informed.

[infernalis]

Personally, the garbage that is used to preserve frozen fish is something I worry about a lot more.

Bottom line, I would rather feed my snakes a pile of rosies than one fillet of commercially packaged Tilapia.

[ConcinusMan]

Jeez Wayne, I never said I do meth. What I was saying is, that, caffeine, nicotine, etc. are things that I might "like", but I don't do them because they're horrible to my health.

But anyway, I would agree with the last statement you made if it weren't for the fact that the packaged tilapia I buy is actually day-old fish from the fresh seafood counter and there's nothing added. It's just tilapia. I can also buy whole tilapia (it's only been gutted) at the seafood counter, nothing added. Heck, I can't even get rosies here. I looked everywhere and nobody carries them.

[Greg'sGarters]

Yeah thiaminase is a terrible death for garters. You could have goldfish in mountain clean fresh spring water or mud, they'll still have thiaminase. And hate to say it but a lot of times PetSmart feeders aren't healthy, now I haven't seen your PetSmart but the ones I've been to have horrible feeders. They eat the remains of waterlogged dead decaying fish. Plus they are usually overcrowded. That's a triple threat.

[thamneil]

Don't think I was clear enough. My main question is, can thiaminase containing fish (fillet for example) be used as part of a varied diet? Assuming it is fed in moderation of course.

[guidofatherof5]

I would say yes with the knowledge there could be problems.
A varied diet without thiaminase containing fish would be best though.

[ConcinusMan]

what he said ^^^. I used to feed my concinnus goldfish quite regularly, mainly in the winter. I also gave them WC bullfrogs. this particular pair wouldn't eat rodents plus I just didn't know any better at the time. they lived very long lives. But still, now that I know better, I won't give it to them in spite of my not having problems before. just isn't worth the risk for something that I can easily avoid.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Don't think I was clear enough. My main question is, can thiaminase containing fish (fillet for example) be used as part of a varied diet? Assuming it is fed in moderation of course.
Personally, I would say "No"!! To me its like saying "can I give my rats this tiny bit of rat poison every now and then". I mean it probably wont kill them, but why take the chance. I just wouldn't do it, period. And if I lived somewhere that I could find no other food than goldfish or rosies, I would go dig worms out of my yard and supplement calcium. If you know it could cause problems and a horrible death in the end, then there is no good arguement as to why you would go ahead and feed them to a snake.

[d_virginiana]

I wouldn't say that feeding thiaminase-containing fish is a good idea as part of a 'varied diet'. It's more like something that is okay as a last resort (like a garter that won't eat pre-killed fish and all you can get are rosy reds), or something that isn't fatal if you accidentally give them the wrong type of fish for a couple feedings. Kind of like giving a dog chocolate. It won't kill my dog if he gets to that chocolate-chip cookie I dropped before I can pick it up, but I don't know where the 'threshold' of safety for that is.
It's a risk to the snake's health. They don't benefit at ALL from getting thiaminase-containing fish. If you can provide safe food that they will eat, then do that instead.


And if I lived somewhere that I could find no other food than goldfish or rosies, I would go dig worms out of my yard and supplement calcium.

I know you were just making an example, but unless you are VERY certain of what's in the runoff water that flows through your yard during rainstorms, digging up worms can be bad business for garters as well ;)

[d_virginiana]

They don't benefit at ALL from getting thiaminase-containing fish.

Just to clarify; as opposed to fish that do not contain thiaminase :)

[Greg'sGarters]

I would recommend for you to try your hardest to stay away from thiaminase based foods. I mean they might come across some in the wild, but just because they eat them in the wild doesn't mean it's good for them. :)

[thamneil]

Makes sense. Just want to make it clear that I absolutely do NOT feed thiaminase containing fish! Just became curious after looking at water snakes.

[Steveo]

This is a bit off topic but I wanted to share this anecdote.

I've been thinking about getting back into breeding Betta splendens, which was both an old hobby and the subject of my thesis. The idea that groups of immature bettas grow more slowly than smaller groups or individually-housed bettas has been around for decades, always attributed to some unknown growth inhibiting factor excreted or secreted by the largest of the group to maintain their size advantage into adulthood.

Well, it had been a few years since I looked at any of the literature, but some people smarter than me are beginning to suspect that thiaminase is the culprit. The growth inhibition phenomenon has been researched in a few species and one of the common themes is that all species involved produce thiaminase.

[Steveo]

Now I'm wondering if adding thiamin to the water would increase growth rates. Here I am, 5 years out of school and still thinking up new experiments.

[guidofatherof5]

Now I'm wondering if adding thiamin to the water would increase growth rates. Here I am, 5 years out of school and still thinking up new experiments.


I think the effect would be neglishable. I would also be concerned about overdosing. I would think a varied diet would be best.
Just my opinion.

[chris-uk]

Now I'm wondering if adding thiamin to the water would increase growth rates. Here I am, 5 years out of school and still thinking up new experiments.

For the snakes or a batch of bettas?

[Steveo]

The fish. I suppose I should have stated that on a snake forum ;)

[guidofatherof5]

I think the effect would be neglishable. I would also be concerned about overdosing. I would think a varied diet would be best.
Just my opinion.

My comments were snake related.
Sorry, I wasn't following close enough.

[chris-uk]

The fish. I suppose I should have stated that on a snake forum ;)

Would be an interesting experiment.