Not treating wild caugh for parasites, pros and cons?

[Dracorex5]

Ive been trying to find a vet in my area to do a fecal the past few days on my little garter snake, and im stuck. The cheapest fecal around here is $44.... All others require a $60+ check up and then a fecal. Ive been keeping reptiles a while, i know there are only a handful of vets who actually know what they are doing. I have checked this little guy up and down, and he is healthy as a horse externally and his mouth and vent are clean and clear. I know when you take in an animal you are supposed to know the possibilities and be willing to do what it takes, but i dont really know what to do at this point. I have to get a fecal, pay for medications, and get up to three or more fecals to make sure they are clear, all with a risk of the snake getting reinfected because it poops while im at work and decides to roll in it! What do you all suggest? Also, regardless of if i treat or not, how do i keep my other snakes safe? I just have to be careful with poop and tool contact right? I love this little garter, but my older boys are a bit more golden to me.

[ProXimuS]

Hmm, from what I've been told, it doesn't hurt to deworm if you're not sure if they're positive for parasites.(This is what I've been told by two vets, one for my dog, one for my snake.)Also from what I understand you can buy Fenbendazole(Panacur) at a feed store, at least around here. So if you can find out, or if someone can tell you how much to give for your snakes age/weight, maybe you can treat him yourself? I haven't personally done this, just an idea..If not I'd just shell out the $44, better safe than sorry:)

[guidofatherof5]

Reinfecting usually occurs then they ingest fecal matter.
I've never heard them requiring 3 checks.
Getting fecal matter on their body shouldn't cause any problem I'm aware of.
Try to find a Vet. that will allow you to bring a fecal sample in without a visit. See if a college will do the fecal check. They might do it for free.

[Dracorex5]

A college might be a good idea! Theres a college here that does pre vet and is the herp capital college of the south! Id try treating myself, but ive never dewormed a snake before, and i wouldnt know who to ask hen it comes to pancur perscriptions for garters unless theres a vet enjoying the forum here :) its always been suggested to me to do fecals until three come clear in a row.... But that seems like a bit much!

[Selkielass]

Excellent post on Deworming.

Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - RE: Metro/Panacur info. looong (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1987318,1987371)

Lots of videos and detailed instructions on tube feeding and medicating snakes via google

[infernalis]

WC captives will have only the parasite loads with which they arrived, and most such infections will decline over time as adult parasites die off -- unless the animals are reinfected via their prey.

Dr. Sam Sweet - Biologist. University of California, Santa Barbera

[stevenrudge]

TBH l only treat if there is a problem,l'm a bit against blanket treating animals to me its a mis-use of antibiotics and pesticides

[Magnarock the 2nd]

WC captives will have only the parasite loads with which they arrived, and most such infections will decline over time as adult parasites die off -- unless the animals are reinfected via their prey. Dr. Sam Sweet - Biologist. University of California, Santa Barbera

This is interesting; do you think a wc from 2011 would still have worms/internal parasites? It hasn't eaten anything that would have a high parastite load, except some tuffy minnows he ate when I first captured it. Im considering finding a cb mate for him but I'm worried he might have parasites because he was wc.

[Selkielass]

I haven't treated any of my wild caught snakes.
The one fecal float I had done came up negative, but I hear false negatives are common with reptiles.
I've looked into worming, but the process seems moderately stressful, so I've hesitated to inflict it on snakes who seem to be thriving as they are.

[guidofatherof5]

In my opinion all w/c snakes should have a fecal float done. Not to sure about the false negative thing. If the tech. knows what they are doing there shouldn't be an issue. Many of the parasites in reptiles are common to mammals so the techs are used to seeing them under the microscope.
I know that many wild snakes live with parasites but removing them in captivity protects any other (c/b or w/c) from getting the parasites. It also eliminates the chance the parasites will be an issue later in life or at a time of weakness in the snake.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

All of my wildcaughts are treated with panacur (fenbendazole), flagyl (metronidazole), and praziquantel. After they are done with the meds i give them a dose of bene bac gel (probiotics).

[chris-uk]

My one WC was quarantined until she had a faecal float done. That turned out to be very positive, so although she wasn't showing any external signs I treated her with Panacur. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't worth risking a spread of parasites which could affect my other garters if they became ill and their immune system was stressed.
I found injecting the dose of Panacur into a pinky was the easiest way to deliver it, none of the stress of squirting it directly into Nobby's mouth. A month later a second faecal float was completely clear and I have the confidence to mix her with my CB girls.

I wouldn't de-worm without a positive faecal float, but I wouldn't withhold a de-worming treatment just because the snake wasn't ill.

[Magnarock the 2nd]

I want to get a fecal of this thing but he has been off food all month. I changed his substrate to newspaper like the vet said so I will be able to get a fresh sample without it drying out like it would with aspen. Cleaning out the aspen I came across one very small dried out turd, but I tossed it. I let him wade and slither in the bath but he didn't defecate. I don't know when I will ever be able to get a good sample. Does the vet have magical ways of getting feces out?:confused:

[guidofatherof5]

Sometimes they will........ at a loss for a better word squeeze/palpate a sample out.

[ConcinusMan]

all with a risk of the snake getting reinfected because it poops while im at work and decides to roll in it! What do you all suggest? Also, regardless of if i treat or not, how do i keep my other snakes safe? I just have to be careful with poop and tool contact right?

Not necessarily. Snakes get parasites mainly by eating intermediate hosts or drinking contaminated water. Even if you have a snake that is infected, coming in contact with infected feces isn't how it spreads. For example. Tapeworms, which are one of the most harmful, cannot spread from one snake to another even if a snake were to swallow tapeworm eggs in the water or by swallowing contaminated feces. The eggs won't hatch into a larvae unless they are swallowed by the appropriate intermediate host. The only way for a snake to get tapeworms is to swallow a food item containing the already hatched, live larva. They can swallow eggs all day long and that won't infect them. They have to swallow an already hatched larva, which can only live in the intermediate host such as a frog or fish.

There are plenty of nasties that can spread snake-to-snake, but the only way it happens is if an infected snake poops in the water, and another snake drinks it. Direct contact with fecal matter just won't do it. Snakes get parasites from their water or food, not usually from each other.

Snakes can live just fine with a mild infection of even potentially harmful parasites. However, if your snake's immune system gets stressed for whatever reason, having parasites only complicates matters. The immune system is going to be busy fighting parasites, leaving them at a higher risk of other infections such as RI's. You might notice no ill effects of parasites until your snake gets sick or stressed and the parasite infection spirals out of control. Sometimes that happens in captivity. A parasite infection may not be giving a snake any trouble until you add the stress of captivity or stress on the immune system from fighting off an asymptomatic infection or becoming gravid.

In my experience a thorough deworming of wild snakes seems to help with their appetite, weight, long term health and resistance even if the parasites don't seem to be causing any harm and the newly acquired snake seems to be in perfect health. It's now a matter of standard proceedure for me to deworm WC snakes in their first couple of weeks in captivity and while they're in good health rather than wait for problems to show up later. The medication is poison. A strong healthy snake can handle it much better than one that is already weakened by parasites or infection so there's good reason not to wait for problems to show.

I seem to notice that even healthy looking WC snakes that are somewhat thin, gain weight and eat better if I deworm them and I get far fewer of them having appetite problems or sliding downhill later. I recommend that you deworm them. Chances are in favor that they do carry potentially harmful parasites that could cause problems later on down the road. For example, infection with liver flukes won't be noticeable until later after much damage is done so deworming can make the difference between a WC snake living 5 healthy years in captivity, or 10 years if dewormed.

[ConcinusMan]

My one WC was quarantined until she had a faecal float done. That turned out to be very positive, so although she wasn't showing any external signs I treated her with Panacur. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't worth risking a spread of parasites which could affect my other garters if they became ill and their immune system was stressed.

The risk of spreading the most common harmful ones, snake-to-snake is pretty low actually, unless you don't stay on top of changing out poopy water.


I found injecting the dose of Panacur into a pinky was the easiest way to deliver it

That's how I do it too.



I wouldn't de-worm without a positive fecal float, but I wouldn't withhold a de-worming treatment just because the snake wasn't ill.

Exactly. You don't want to wait until you see symptoms. However, being how fecal floats cost so much (and I have no way to do them myself) I just deworm all my WC snakes rather than spending money on a fecal float that's likely to be positive anyway.

While panacur is good broad-spectrum medication, there are some harmful parasites that aren't effected by it. For that reason, I also separately treat them with praziquantel, twice at two-week intervals. That will take care of anything that the panacur might have missed such as a particularly nasty tapeworm we have around here particularly where there are rough-skinned newts acting as the intermediate host. Panacur doesn't help with this particular tape worm but praziquantel does, and only if it's used twice at two week intervals.

There are only two types of snakes here that carry that tapeworm. One that is already malnurished, pooping traces of blood, and suffering from infections, and one that soon will be if it isn't treated while they're still relatively healthy. I've lost a few during treatment that were already weakened. Much better to treat them before they're weakened.

[Mommy2many]

I am among the few (I believe) who did not treat and/or test their WC snakes. I had two that were wild caught. The first one was gravid and had 11 babies. She lived with us for almost 2 1/2 years. There were never any issues of illness with her. The other is our Dekayi, who has lived with us for the past 3 1/2 years. Again, no signs of illness or parasites. Again, we have been extremely lucky in both cases. If the first one had not been my first in 35 years, I would have probably tested her if I had known. Both of these snakes had been caught in my own backyard , within 2 months of each other. They have been quarantined over periods of time and I am lucky that all has turned out well. If you have other snakes, I highly suggest the testing and treatment. Better safe than sorry. I'm sure there are schools that can test for a nominal fee or nothing at all, just to get the practice.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, I've kept WC garters for many years untreated as well, before I knew anything about it. And it's apparent to me that I can get away with that when it comes to snakes from certain areas, while other areas seem to be infested with parasites. The likelyhood of infestation seems to be largely tied to what they eat as well. A diet of earthworms and slugs such as the case with northwesterns, found far from water, is much less likely to be a problem then say, a big concinnus that's been feeding on newts and frogs from a parasite infested wetland.

There's even some "problem areas" for the concinnus' while other areas seem to have no problems. I know some places nearby where local university biologists looked into this. There are some places where tapeworms using newts as an intermediate host are having quite an impact on the health of snakes and birds. In those areas I almost always find some emaciated / malnourished snakes around. Something you would rarely see where the tapeworm isn't prevalent.