ID Help?

[roryhawke]

New here, found the forum while researching a local find. He was camera shy and this was the best picture to show markings and color even though his head is hidden. I have many many garter snakes in my backyard but this is the first one I've seen that looked like this. I hope this is in the proper location if not I can resubmit it elsewhere. Thanks in advance to the group!5766

[infernalis]

Thamnophis Radix, Iowa Albino.

Great find!

[Invisible Snake]

Wow that is a great find! Definitely a keeper IMO. I would love to see more pics of him/her :D

[thamneil]

Great catch! Really different looking color. I would love to see some shots of its head. Kind of looks like a t-positive albino.

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful T.radix. If it's a T+ albino it's the darkest one I've ever seen.
Love to see more photos, please.

[ConcinusMan]

Nice find! Looks like a T positive albino plains garter, a.k.a. "Nebraska" albino.

[roryhawke]

Thanks for the replies, I will try to take a few more photos today.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the replies, I will try to take a few more photos today.

Where was this snake found? State?

[roryhawke]

The snake was found in central Iowa

[guidofatherof5]

I must ask, Des Moines?

[roryhawke]

Just north of Des Moines, Granger to be exact

[guidofatherof5]

The reason I asked was a T+ albino(Nebraska albino) was found this year in Des Moines by one of our members (Dan72) View Profile: Dan72 - Garter Snake Forum (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/dan72.html)

[roryhawke]

...

[Invisible Snake]

He looks awesome, thanks for sharing the pics. Will you be keeping him?

[kimbosaur]

Wow what a beauty!

[roryhawke]

Well typically we just return them to the yard, have kept a few in the past. Very friendly this one is so I'm not sure yet.

[guidofatherof5]

Don't return this one to the yard. Please.

I'm seeing female by the way. Any chance you can post an under tail photo so we can sex this snake?

[roryhawke]

577857795780

Now that's no easy task!

[guidofatherof5]

Female.
That is the darkest T+ albino I've every seen. Beautiful young girl.

Hopefully Dan will be on soon and can post a comparison photo.

[Invisible Snake]

Female.
That is the darkest T+ albino I've every seen. Beautiful young girl.

Hopefully Dan will be on soon and can post a comparison photo.



Are you 100% sure it's female? Judging from those pics I was leaning towards male, but since you're the expert on radixes, I'll go with you.

[guidofatherof5]

Are you 100% sure it's female?

90% sure. I'd like to see the underside of the tail when it's straight though.

[roryhawke]

I will say that some of the photos make the marking look darker than they appear in person. I think the use of the indirect flash is causing that. The first picture are closer to the actual appearance.

[ProXimuS]

That is a very different looking radix, really pretty:D


I was leaning towards female, but wasn't sure since she's curved in the one pic.

[katach]

If you don't want that beautiful girl send her to Steve so he can put her in with my Sept. shipment. Please, please, please! I've always wanted a T+.

[roryhawke]

Better?57815782

[guidofatherof5]

I'm staying with FEMALE, not much doubt in my mind.

[Dan72]

WOW:eek::eek::eek:!!! That is one awesome girl. Now I'll really try and stir the pot..... does that girl look gravid to anyone? I'll get some pics of mine up soon, she is getting some new digs today and I'm about to make the change.;).

[guidofatherof5]

I think she's to small/young to be gravid.

[roryhawke]

Ok, what is gravid?

[roryhawke]

Ahh peggo, well if it makes you feel any better it seems almost every garter i try to keep ends up having babies. I've turned loose 80+ little ones in my yard.

[guidofatherof5]

Ok, what is gravid?

With snake.

[Invisible Snake]

Gravid is the technical term for a pregnant reptile.

[Dan72]

Here's a pic of the albino I found at the end of March, in my yard in Des Moines.

5797

[kimbosaur]

Is it for sure an albino? No expert by any means, but could it be hypomelanistic? Please correct me if I'm way off.

[infernalis]

It's albino.......

[kimbosaur]

Would you mind explaining the difference? I'm still learning all the differences between these terms/mutations.

[ConcinusMan]

Gravid is the technical term for a pregnant reptile.

Gravid means that the animal has developing offspring OR eggs within the body. This can apply to any animal, egg laying, live bearing reptiles, or even placental mammals.

reptiles don't get pregnant. Only mammals do.

[ConcinusMan]

Would you mind explaining the difference? I'm still learning all the differences between these terms/mutations.

Hypomelanistic refers to reduced production of melanin, or melanin deficiency. Some melanin is produced, but not at normal levels. Think of it as "in between" normal and albino.

"albino" is just another word for amelanistic, meaning, the animal produces NO melanin. There are different types of albino. T positives (T stands for tyrosinase) produce a melanin precursor called tyrosinase, but can't convert it to melanin. "nebraska" albino plains garter is a good example. They are albino, but a bit darker than most albinos. Their eyes are usually a dark ruby color or even close to normal.

T negative albinos can't even produce tyrosinase in the first place, and are much lighter in color, with typical pink eyes. Where melanin (dark pigments) would normally be, there's nothing. No color at all. "Iowa" albino plains garter is a good example.


Is it for sure an albino? No expert by any means, but could it be hypomelanistic? Please correct me if I'm way off.

You're not way off. it could be hypomelanistic but it's not. The pigment you see (sort of straw colored) is not melanin in this snake. It's tyrosinase that has failed to be converted to melanin. Hypomelanistics produce melanin, just not at normal levels. Their eyes are usually completely normal. This snake has ruby eyes.

What I'm saying is that the snake in the first post is a T positive albino "nebraska albino" plains garter. So is the one Dan posted. Same mutation.

[katach]

Great explanation Richard, thank you.

[Stefan-A]

Gravid means that the animal has developing offspring OR eggs within the body. This can apply to any animal, egg laying, live bearing reptiles, or even placental mammals.

reptiles don't get pregnant. Only mammals do.
Got a source for that last statement?

[ConcinusMan]

Pregnant (adj) = having a child or other offspring developing in the body; with child or young, as a woman or female mammal: Pregnant | Define Pregnant at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pregnant)

Pregnant (adj) = carrying a fetus or fetuses within the womb: pregnant definition | English definition dictionary | Reverso Collins (http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/pregnant)

In biology, the term gravid is used to describe the condition of an animal (most commonly fish or reptiles) when carrying eggs internally.

In medicine, pregnancy is often defined as beginning when the developing embryo becomes implanted in the endometrial lining of a woman's uterus. Merely having a fertilized egg inside of her isn't enough to define her as "pregnant"

Now, I do realize that "gravid" is simply a Latin word for "heavy", but "pregnant" as I have always understood, is not the correct term for an animal that is simply carrying eggs, even if those eggs are developing within the body, as is the case with garter snakes.

You can call a woman "gravid" and still be correct, but to call a snake "pregnant" is not correct. That's what I've always been taught, and that is how I've always understood it. You wouldn't call a chicken about to lay an egg "pregnant" now would you? In any biology class I've ever taken, you would quickly be corrected if you called a snake, fish, or bird, "pregnant"

[Dan72]

Great explanation Richard, thank you.

What she said...:D.

[Stefan-A]

Pregnant (adj) = having a child or other offspring developing in the body; with child or young, as a woman or female mammal: Pregnant | Define Pregnant at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pregnant)

Pregnant (adj) = carrying a fetus or fetuses within the womb: pregnant definition | English definition dictionary | Reverso Collins (http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/pregnant)

In biology, the term gravid is used to describe the condition of an animal (most commonly fish or reptiles) when carrying eggs internally.

In medicine, pregnancy is often defined as beginning when the developing embryo becomes implanted in the endometrial lining of a woman's uterus. Merely having a fertilized egg inside of her isn't enough to define her as "pregnant"

Now, I do realize that "gravid" is simply a Latin word for "heavy", but "pregnant" as I have always understood, is not the correct term for an animal that is simply carrying eggs, even if those eggs are developing within the body, as is the case with garter snakes.

You can call a woman "gravid" and still be correct, but to call a snake "pregnant" is not correct. That's what I've always been taught, and that is how I've always understood it. You wouldn't call a chicken about to lay an egg "pregnant" now would you? In any biology class I've ever taken, you would quickly be corrected if you called a snake, fish, or bird, "pregnant"
Pregnant - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pregnant)
: containing a developing embryo, fetus, or unborn offspring within the body : gravid (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gravid)

Pregnancy - definition from Biology-Online.org (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Pregnancy)
The condition (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Condition) of having a developing embryo (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Embryo) or foetus (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Foetus) in the body (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Body), after union (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Union) of an ovum (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Ovum) and spermatozoon (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Spermatozoon).



No functional difference, no reason to limit the use of the word to just some species. Yes, you might as well call a chicken about to lay an egg "pregnant" (what about monotremes?) and whoever would try to correct you, would have to attempt to do it on the grounds of tradition alone.

[Dan72]

Just curious how everyone was doing?

[roryhawke]

Everyone is doing fine...the little gal is headed for greener pastures but i'm sure we haven't seen the last of her! ;)

[EasternGirl]

She was lovely...you should definitely try to find her again and give her to Steve for Dan. A beauty like that is rare.

[EasternGirl]

Oops...correction...for Kat not Dan...sorry Kat.