Update on the young San Francisco garter snakes...

[Thamnophis]

Eight of the ten young San Francisco garter snakes that were born on May 17, 2012, are doing very well. They eat voracious (salmonfilet, smelt, chicken heart) and have no problem when I put a small bit of multivitamin, calcium and vitamin B on the food every now and than.

Regrettably two of them refuse all food that I offered, including earthworms, small snails, etc.
They now are a bit skinny, but seem healthy and still are quite vivid.

Yesterday I placed the both of them in a small plastic box with very moist substrate and put them in the refrigerator. They get a short brumation in the summer. I think I will let it last for three weeks.
I have done this before the past years with a few young San Francisco garter snakes and young Mesoamerican Highlands garter snakes (T. fulvus) that refused to eat.
After the short brumation most of them started to eat and are still doing well. Only one tetrataenia died very soon after the brumation. But this one was very, very skinny. I waited too long that time to start the brumation, I think.

I expect that these two start eating after the brumation without problems.
I will keep you updated.

On the first two pictures you see two of the eight juveniles that eat very well.
On the third picture you see one of the not-eating juveniles that is sleeping in the refrigerator.


http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/tetrataenia_jong_2012_10.jpg


http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/tetrataenia_jong_2012_11.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/tetrataenia_jong_2012_12.jpg

[chris-uk]

Thanks for the update, and particularly the information about using a short brumation to try to stimulate feeding as I'd not heard about that before. Keep us updated with the outcome of that.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice. Keep those updates coming. They are always welcome.

[gazzamann]

nice san frans :D

[Invisible Snake]

Thanks for the update and pics, have you ever tried force feeding as a last resort?

[Dan72]

Very cool. Love the San Francisco garters, great looking snakes.

[Thamnophis]

Thanks for the update and pics, have you ever tried force feeding as a last resort?

Yes I have. But the specimen that had to be forcefed for a longer period did not grow, suffered lots of stress and always died after a while. So I do not do this anymore. The brumation of a few weeks during the summer is the last effort. If this does not help, I put them to "sleep". But the results up to now are very encouraging.

[BUSHSNAKE]

good luck with those guys;)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I hope you get the stubborn ones eating and the rest of them continue to thive:D

[thamneil]

That's a very different approach to stimulating feeding. I will keep this in mind with my next litter.

[ProXimuS]

Those are beeeaaauuutiful!! That would be the first next garter I get if they were legal in America.....No doubt:D I really hope to hear the brumation works for the two little non-eaters!

[thamneil]

Just out of curiosity, kind of off topic, how much do tetrataenia sell for in Europe? I want one :)

[guidofatherof5]

Those are beeeaaauuutiful!! That would be the first next garter I get if they were legal in America.....No doubt:D I really hope to hear the brumation works for the two little non-eaters!

Get in line Emily. Get in line.:D

[Thamnophis]

Just out of curiosity, kind of off topic, how much do tetrataenia sell for in Europe? I want one :)

I usually sell my babies when they are at least 2 months old and eat well. My price for them is 80 euro (that's about 100 USdollar) Most breeders ask this price.

[thamneil]

Thats not very much at all! Now if I could only figure out the shipping....

[Rober10169]

I would purchase a couple if we could find a way to get them the Canada.

[thamneil]

There a few people up here that work with them already. Prices are high in Canada regardless of where the snakes came from. Supply and demand!

[chris-uk]

Just out of curiosity, kind of off topic, how much do tetrataenia sell for in Europe? I want one :)

In the UK prices can range from around £80-£150 each, depends who's selling them (and those are asking prices I've seen advertised, they may not sell them at the full price, I think the person selling at £150 was a little optimistic even for a tetrataenia).

[Thamnophis]

Both the juvenile tetrataenia that were in brumation during three weeks in the summer have started to eat. One started a day after waking up and the other one waited one week or so to start his first dinner.
One already shed once after the brumation.
I think they are saved, but I'll wait and see.

[EasternGirl]

Good news...please keep us posted.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Hope the silly sausages continue to eat:)

[Invisible Snake]

Glad to hear that. Congrats on a job well done!

[ProXimuS]

OO I'm really glad to hear that! Hope they continue to eat!!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice job getting them to eat. What are they eating?

[kueluck]

Yeah for the eaters!!!! They are just too beautiful to fail.

[Thamnophis]

Nice job getting them to eat. What are they eating?

They get in this moment a combination of Dillies, smelt and a few pieces of pinkies.
Shall make some pics of them soon together with a brother of sister that ate from the beginning.

[Thamnophis]

The pictures I promised...

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/sizedifference.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/sizedifference1.jpg

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I'm sure they'll put on some size:).Also what size are dillies?

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome head photo.

[EasternGirl]

Just lovely! Glad they are eating for you. :)

[Thamnophis]

Dillies are 2-5 cm long. All the young snakes like them. I give them once in the 3-4 weeks. Is also a seafish.
http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/thamnophis/pics/eten02.jpg

[Thamnophis]

Today I made pics of the two tetrataenia that were in brumation this summer for some weeks.

They are doing very well. One of the two is, on average, as big as the snakes that ate well from the start and the other one is 1,5 cm smaller than the bigger one.
Both eat very good and seem to be very healthy.

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/kneusje1.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/kneusje2.jpg

And this was how one of them looked when I placed them in the refrigerator...

http://www.thamnophis.eu/thamnophis/pics/kneusje.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good.

[Light of Dae]

Wow. That is awesome, how did you ever come to think of a short brumation to reset their appetite?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

The size change is staggering.They're growing like weeds:cool:I suppose when their young they convert all their food into growth.

[chris-uk]

Nice to hear that these little scrubs are doing well.

[gregmonsta]

It's great news and a great thread. I'll be putting my 1 non-feeder from my marcianus litter down for a few weeks now as all else has failed.

[Spankenstyne]

Nice shots. Yeah the mini brumation is an old trick that tends to work well for "resetting" things.

The last public prices I saw in Canada for tetrataenia were about $1500 CDN per pair. Haven't seen any offered in a long time though, a couple of old-timers out East that work with them tend to just gift them to friends the rare times they do breed them.

[Thamnophis]

Wow. That is awesome, how did you ever come to think of a short brumation to reset their appetite?

Is a trick that is used for some years now. Don't know who "invented" it.

@ Spankenstyne... 1500 dollar for a pair? Wow, that's a lot of money! In Europe 80 euro for a young specimen is the usual price.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

In Britain even £150 ($240 Canadian) is considered pricey for a tetrataenia.

[chris-uk]

In Britain even £150 ($240 Canadian) is considered pricey for a tetrataenia.

Yes. I considered 80EUR a bargain.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I paid £300 for 4, (2.2) at Doncaster, tiny, and not really eating.but he was honest and said they were 2 weeks old and only one had eaten :O

I knew I was taking a risk, but that was top of my list to get to add to mine....

1 is as he said eating, but limited, the others, I have assisted, as soon as its in their mouth they seem happy to eat, but just won't seem to start on their own.

But now I am torn.... I really do not want to sress thenm out by feeding, and I am tempted by the fridge method, but we are still shoelace size, really tiny and thin and I would worry they are not strong enough to cope with that either!!.

I would appreciate your advice on whether you have done this with tiny new borns or only when a little bigger...(Oh and what temp fridge please)

[twgrosmick]

I have used the short brumation approach. (in my case two weeks) for one of my male checkered and female red sided garters. worked well for me and got them feeding again right away.

[twgrosmick]

I paid £300 for 4, (2.2) at Doncaster, tiny, and not really eating.but he was honest and said they were 2 weeks old and only one had eaten :O

I knew I was taking a risk, but that was top of my list to get to add to mine....

1 is as he said eating, but limited, the others, I have assisted, as soon as its in their mouth they seem happy to eat, but just won't seem to start on their own.

But now I am torn.... I really do not want to sress thenm out by feeding, and I am tempted by the fridge method, but we are still shoelace size, really tiny and thin and I would worry they are not strong enough to cope with that either!!.

I would appreciate your advice on whether you have done this with tiny new borns or only when a little bigger...(Oh and what temp fridge please)


Mine were on pinky chunks. A little big bigger than you described. I had my fridge set at 53 or so for about two weeks. I would wait to hear input from others seeing as they are very small. Try offering different types of food. worms, fish, etc.

[gregmonsta]

I have used this technique with adults before but this is my first time with a non-feeding baby. It's just over 3 months old and hasn't eaten a thing despite repeated attempts with different techniques. Temp is currently hovering between 10-14C.

[Invisible Snake]

I'm curious, will the short brumation method work with non-feeding hatchling corns?

[thamneil]

Been a while since I've been on the forum. The tetra's have really grown! Im trying to figure out a way to get some into Canada! :)

[Thamnophis]

I'm curious, will the short brumation method work with non-feeding hatchling corns?

Yes it will work... Done this long time ago.

In theory you can use this method with every snake that in the wild brumates.

[Thamnophis]

By the way... reptiles normally do not loose weight during brumation. So it does not matter if the juvenile is skinny.
They only loose weight when you brumate them TO DRY!.
Make sure the substrate is wet, not damp, but really WET.
When a skinny juvenile in brumation loose fluids the chance it will die is big.

Bears loose weight during the hibernation and that is why they have to be fat before they go to sleep in the cave.
And that is why reptiles do not have to be fat before they brumate. They just need to be reasonably healthy and be kept on very wet substrate.

[Stefan-A]

The colder it gets, the more energy mammals and birds burn.
The colder it gets, the less energy reptiles and amphibians burn.

Not using your own energy reserves to heat yourself has its benefits.

[SilasBannook]

The comment by Thamnophis above that the substrate has to be wet is the first time I recall seeing that relative to considerations for brumation. In general I understood that garters needed dry bedding and I just suspected they needed a regularly changed water bowl during brumation. Have I just missed that point in how to prepare your snakes for brumation. Appreciate the expanded feedback.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Its a common method for brumating Thamnophis in Europe

[guidofatherof5]

I find the snakes I brumate spend a lot of time in the water dish.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

When they are wet they'll loose more heat and colder they are in brumation the less fat reserves are used and the greater their chances of surviving the winter.Correct?Or is there other reasoning for brumating with damp substrate?

[Thamnophis]

A number of years ago I brumated my garter snakes drier then I do nowadays.
What I noticed was that when I brumated drier, the snakes lost more weight than when I brumate in wet substrate. In some cases snakes gained weight during the brumation (1, 2, 3 or 4 grams on snakes that weigh between 50 and 100 grams). The only reason for this is absorbing water. This can be that they drink from the drops on the lid of the box or maybe the moist air they inhale. I do not know what the real reason is.
Snakes that are brumated in "dry" substrate often lay in the water bowl. Why? They need moisture.

In the terrarium, in which the snakes live, a wet substrate is not good. But a wet substrate in the brumation box is ok. All my snakes are healthy at the end of the brumation. No losses up to now...

[chris-uk]

Some good brumation tips. And the proof of the pudding has got to be zero losses during brumation since using damp substrate.
What substrate do you use? I'd have thought something like sphagnum moss which resists mould would be good, or cocohusk which naturally retains more moisture.

[SilasBannook]

Great information guys. I didn't pick up the importance of water out of prior brumation threads. Thanks.

[guidofatherof5]

Great information guys. I didn't pick up the importance of water out of prior brumation threads. Thanks.

I think much is trial and error and personal preference.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Some good brumation tips. And the proof of the pudding has got to be zero losses during brumation since using damp substrate.
What substrate do you use? I'd have thought something like sphagnum moss which resists mould would be good, or cocohusk which naturally retains more moisture.
i was thinking of using spagnum myself but i think it would mold but i think this year im gonna try straight peat moss which is what people used before cocohusk came out:)

[Greg'sGarters]

Very nice snakes!!!

[gregmonsta]

13 days out of brumation and my little non-starter took his first feed today ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Good news.

[SilasBannook]

Congratulations on successfully getting your scrub to eat. That is fantastic. Also great to track the success of that technique.