Puget Sound Garters & polymorphism

[ConcinusMan]

In past posts I've shown some surprising variations (polymorphism) in WC red spotted garters (T. s. concinnus). Now its time to show some cool variations of T. s. pickeringii.

Sometimes the line between subspecies' outer appearance, and even their ranges, gets blurred. What is clear is that T. s. concinnus and T. s. pickeringii are on a genetic level, essentially the same snake. Their ranges even meet or perhaps overlap. The farther north you go out of concinnus' range, the more they start resembling fitchi or pickeringi. Likewise, certain pockets of pickeringi, especially near the Lewis County/Thurston county line, often resemble concinnus' or fitchi. If you didn't know where they came from, subspecies of T. sirtalis can be impossible to distinguish from one another visually.

Joe said something about this once or twice...

Subspecies... sometimes I wonder. I wonder about their validity or even the need for the splitting, particularly with western sirtalis'.

Sure, there are examples more "typical" of the pickeringi subspecies found in certain parts of the Puget lowlands, and there are "typical" concinnus' found in the southern Willamette Valley of Oregon, but that leaves a lot of miles of habitat for both subspecies, and a lot of snakes that just don't fit the subspecies descriptions neatly.

Like I said... If you didn't know where they came from, subspecies of T. sirtalis can be near impossible to distinguish from one another. With that said again, I'm calling these snakes (T. sirtalis pickeringi) Puget Sound garters (to me they're just way cool T. sirtalis') because I have seen all of these variations, and more, through out much of the pickeringi range I have explored, and likewise I've seen much variation in concinnus' even where ranges do not overlap.

Snakes like these (and these individuals pictured) are found from Dupont, WA , south to Olympia and as far as Chehalis, WA with much variation (even within a single localized population). I think that makes them pickeringi...

Doesn't it???

All T. s. pickeringi. From the Chehalis area to Tacoma, (and even beyond) you are likely to find any of these different looking ones:

Image colors are very close, if not dead-on accurate but I can't vouch for your monitor settings.

Female shedding: (Thurston Co.)
http://oi50.tinypic.com/2lscu11.jpg

http://oi50.tinypic.com/2lw4qva.jpg

http://oi45.tinypic.com/2h2r0jm.jpg

http://oi49.tinypic.com/9qaec6.jpg

http://oi50.tinypic.com/357q3ra.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Like deja vu...

Laterally striped concinnus? fitchi? WT?

Range data suggests it could only be a pickeringi being how it was found near Tumwater, WA
http://oi45.tinypic.com/nqd1r5.jpg

http://oi45.tinypic.com/iqv5na.jpg

More variations and pics coming very soon.

[katach]

Interesting Richard. I do know exactly just how variable the Pugets are. 2 of our 4 have no lateral markings, one has red, and the other has a very difficult to see green. It would be fascinating to get down to the DNA of it.

[BUSHSNAKE]

keep it coming....very cool!

[BUSHSNAKE]

More! More!

[mb90078]

You seem to imply integrading without using the word...

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Lovely pictures.

[ProXimuS]

I'm waiting impatiently for more pics/info!! Very interesting ;)

[ConcinusMan]

You seem to imply intergrading without using the word...

Yeah, but is it primary, secondary, or both? I know that the area where concinnus and pickeringi ranges overlap or blur (Lewis County) was completely under water for thousands of years up until about 10,000 yrs ago. This, and glaciation at Puget sound, could have isolated a previously connected and continuous population of t. sirtalis, allowing them to evolve separately for a while. When the waters (glacial runoff lakes) finally receeded, they were then rejoined creating intergrade zones are the result of secondary contact between populations that were previously geographically isolated. This secondary contact very well could have happened, (happening now) but geographic morph variation within each subspecies' range, and DNA sampling suggest that the two have been in contact all along, with only intermittent periods of isolation. I could be completely wrong though and only extensive DNA sampling and years of research can reveal whats really going on with these two. I do know I read somewhere that it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between the two subspecies (concinnus and pickeringi) by DNA because they are essentially identical on a genetic level and I have to tell you, based on my interaction with them, they are the same. Everything I've always loved about concinnus' is there in pickeringi too. The only thing different is their color and pattern, and even that is nearly the same in certain individuals.

[ConcinusMan]

Another interesting thing to note is the dorsal stripe. The pickeringi subspecies is described as having a thin stripe. Not a bold wide stripe with well defined edges like all of these have.

A couple more:

http://oi46.tinypic.com/1gj57t.jpg

http://oi46.tinypic.com/in4m1e.jpg

These variations are neat and all, but it can get very frustrating when you've traveled 1500 miles looking for blues/greens and end up finding snakes that aren't much different than the concinnus' you've been getting for years, lol. I honestly didn't expect to see these though so its a nice surprise.

[ConcinusMan]

I would normally be adding these pics to "concinnusman's garters" thread but most of the time that thread is dead ( 404 Not Found error) and the issue still isn't resolved. Sometimes it's there, but mostly it's not.:mad:

Rather than making another thread I'll just slip this picture in here:

Here's the mighty little wandering garter that swallowed an adult mouse. Found her in Chehalis (Lewis County). Makes me wonder why they don't range south to Portland. It's the same ecoprovince (Puget Lowlands) all the way south along I-5 to the Columbia River but these only seem to range south as far as Lewis County. Hmmm... I wonder why. They are just as frequently found as northwesterns and pugets.

Note 8 upper labials, not 7.

T. elegans vagrans:

http://oi50.tinypic.com/znwxc.jpg

[katach]

Just to show another variation on the Puget coloring. This is our largest female, Cotton.
Note the absence of markings on the lateral sides.

547754785479

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, Cotton was the first I've seen that didn't have distinct lateral stripes. Lookin' sharp!

[katach]

Thanks Richard. She just shed this morning, almost like she was saying, hey take my pic and put it in that thread. :)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, two of the big girls I have just shed too. The black is so deep and almost like satin. Combine that with the florescent greenish yellow quality of the bold stripes and its like "wow"

[katach]

Most definitely! I just love the green/blue color on her neck, especially after a shed.

[mb90078]

Yeah, but is it primary, secondary, or both? I know that the area where concinnus and pickeringi ranges overlap or blur (Lewis County) was completely under water for thousands of years up until about 10,000 yrs ago. This, and glaciation at Puget sound, could have isolated a previously connected and continuous population of t. sirtalis, allowing them to evolve separately for a while. When the waters (glacial runoff lakes) finally receeded, they were then rejoined creating intergrade zones are the result of secondary contact between populations that were previously geographically isolated. This secondary contact very well could have happened, (happening now) but geographic morph variation within each subspecies' range, and DNA sampling suggest that the two have been in contact all along, with only intermittent periods of isolation. I could be completely wrong though and only extensive DNA sampling and years of research can reveal whats really going on with these two. I do know I read somewhere that it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between the two subspecies (concinnus and pickeringi) by DNA because they are essentially identical on a genetic level and I have to tell you, based on my interaction with them, they are the same. Everything I've always loved about concinnus' is there in pickeringi too. The only thing different is their color and pattern, and even that is nearly the same in certain individuals.

Interesting analysis.

[jaleely]

I'm pretty proud of myself. The only distinguishing, really, thing i noticed about the differences between T. s. pickeringi and T. s. sirtalis were the 7 cs 8 upper labials. I wasn't going to say anything, since I'm so new, but since that is a distinguisher, I'm proud I noticed it! They are so genetically similar, but that is a difference enough I can see where the difference is. Strange that along with only a slight color variance, would be the thing that stands out for them. Must be very had to notice on the fly while herping!

There are *so* many sub-species.

As for the beauty pictured here, the T. elegans vagrans...I lived in Silver Lake WA for a year, worked in Kelso/Longview, and banked in Chehalis..lol....and I found there to be a significant climate change between Chehalis and Portland area. To me, it felt like passing a barrier on the I-5 in regard to weather. Perhaps the snakes are more sensitive to that kind of thing than we give them credit for. I *loved* WA weather, and was very attuned to the changes when I'd drive down the I-5 or up, or even more inland. I could see why she wouldn't want to go down past Lewis county!

On a second thought, I wonder if Mt St Helens and the Toutle river have anything to do with it.

[InsanePirateDragon]

Just to show another variation on the Puget coloring. This is our largest female, Cotton.
Note the absence of markings on the lateral sides.

547754785479

Wow, that girl is gorgeous.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm pretty proud of myself. The only distinguishing, really, thing i noticed about the differences between T. s. pickeringi and T. s. sirtalis were the 7 cs 8 upper labials. I wasn't going to say anything, since I'm so new, but since that is a distinguisher, I'm proud I noticed it!



There is no scale difference. T. s. pickeringi and T. s. concinnus both have 7 (rarely 8) upper labials because they are both T. sirtalis'.
T. elegans on the other hand (all subspecies, T. e. vagrans, (wandering) T. e. elegans (mt. garter) T. e. terrestris (coast garter) have 8 upper labials.

The scales are used to distinguish between species but doesn't help to distinguish between subspecies.

First latin name "thamnophis" is the genus. "sirtalis" is the species name. pugets and oregon red spotted (and eastern T. s. sirtalis) are the same species. The scales are the same. The only thing different is their range, morphology, and of course, their third name. The third name is the subspecies name. But make no mistake, if the first and second name is the same, they are the same species and the scales are exactly the same.

[katach]

5489

So where do you start and stop counting?

[ConcinusMan]

7, rarely 8 (it does happen occasionally)for all sirtalis'. If you see 8, then much of the time, on sirtalis' there's 7 on the other side.

I see 8 too. Try the other side. If you still see 8, then the inter nasal scale shape can be used to tell sirtalis apart from elegans. Plus, on elegans, the 6th and 7th aren't as enlarged as they are on sirtalis'.

[katach]

5490

You are correct. She didn't like that side of her head photographed :D

[ConcinusMan]

There it is. Lucky 7.

:D

[katach]

So the 8 on the other side, is that normal to find the two sides different?

[ConcinusMan]

Yes. occasionally a snake will have 8 instead of 7, but in my experience, the extra scale is usually just on one side. An extra upper labial on one side happens in other species too. I'm sure theres a few T. elegans' out there with 9 on one side instead of the usual 8. I've seen quite a few northwesterns (t. ordinoides) with 6 on one side, 7 on the other.

[katach]

Cool. I love learning new stuff about my little friends.

[ConcinusMan]

Check this out. Amy is missing a head scale completely. Can you spot it? Weird huh?

5491

[katach]

Right in the middle?

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah. Not there. The other scales partially make up for it but theres still some scaleless area there.

[katach]

Interesting. What species is Amy again?

[ConcinusMan]

T. radix

The missing scale is not normal. Just a harmless "fluke". Born that way. Kind of like a little girl I knew that had 6 fingers on one hand.

[katach]

That would make buying gloves a challenge.

[ConcinusMan]

Pickeringi faces

http://oi50.tinypic.com/ve94e1.jpg

http://oi47.tinypic.com/35bwow4.jpg

http://oi48.tinypic.com/34ni1xy.jpg

http://oi46.tinypic.com/ok3pt3.jpg

http://oi50.tinypic.com/33ne1x0.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

^^^^^^she's bad @$$^^^^^^^^^beautiful

[katach]

Agreed!!

[Spankenstyne]

The last two pics of Richard's are very typical of the look of the pickeringii I found on Vancouver Island last summer as well. Beautiful snakes.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/field herpin/ivww2011.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/field herpin/ivxx2011.jpg

[katach]

Pretty!!

[jaleely]

Okay, so I miscounted no matter what *LOL*
But now it can be true that the same snake has 7 on one side and 8 on the other...and that will happen with T. sirtalis any sub-species...or can really happen with any snake.
It's the T. elegans vagrans that primarily has 8.
Is that an okay summary? lol

[Stefan-A]

I would normally be adding these pics to "concinnusman's garters" thread but most of the time that thread is dead ( 404 Not Found error) and the issue still isn't resolved.
There was never anything wrong with it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7090-concinnusmans-garters.html

[ConcinusMan]

There was never anything wrong with it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7090-concinnusmans-garters.html

Really? Where are you getting this working link? When I need it I get this one below and a minute ago got the 404, then just now its working again. Seriously, something is messed up. Then its not. Then its dead again. Just a minute ago, the link below did not work. Twice. now it does.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7090-concinnusmans-garters.html?highlight=concinnusman's+garters


(http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7090-concinnusmans-garters.html?highlight=concinnusman's+garters)

[ProXimuS]

The link you put up, ConcinnusMan, doesn't work for me either. But the one Stefan put up works, but two of the pics on the first post say the 403 error thing....weird...

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, but the last two times I tried my link, it worked fine. Still working now for me.

The 404 in the pics is unrelated. The photos have been removed from the host site.

If theres nothing wrong with the link, then why does it fail most of the time, then suddenly work again. All I know is, I'm sick of this. Something is wrong, then its not. Then it is again.gggrrr

[ProXimuS]

Ahh I see..makes sense;)

Both links are working here too now...:p

[ConcinusMan]

There, see what I mean?

[ProXimuS]

It's a conspiracy....:p
Con-spiracy...concinnus....conspiracy....:D

[ConcinusMan]

Interesting. That wandering just shed her skin and I saw no signs that she was even going into shed. No observed darkening, no milky look, no cloudy eyes. None of that happened. And yet, there's the shed, and now she's got way better contrast between the spots and background color. I'll try to get pics up soon so you can see what I mean. She's lookin' very sharp.

[ConcinusMan]

^^^^^^she's bad @$$^^^^^^^^^beautiful

Well you can't have her.:cool: Don't worry, there's a lot of snakes where I found her. Bound to find more that are just as gorgeous. It's cloudy and cool today but sunny and almost 80 tomorrow. I'll go out and find more. Besides, she's gravid as heck. She drags her back end like a ball and chain and she feels lumpy. I'll be selling most of her babies so, you'll get your chance.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow. Lousy pictures, but impressive snakes. This female is huge, about 3ft.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/x0u4cj.jpg

And a male. May not be brilliant blue or green but these snakes are much prettier in person. The black is so deep and dark and the bold yellow-green stripes contrast nicely. They almost glow.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/160zm6q.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Veeery pretty:D

[ConcinusMan]

Camera's just don't show the green glow to the stripes. It just looks plain yellow, but in person...

[mikem]

but in person...

they are gorgeous!! :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Speaking of polymorphism, yesterday I aquired a good size female erythristic T. ordinoides. She's gorgeous. So red all over that it drowns out the stripe, just like "Flicker" the male red one I posted in the past. And this girl is just a little bigger than him. The best part is, Tanya gave me a call and is giving Flicker to me! I'll have a pair of them, both totally red. Neeto!

[BUSHSNAKE]

sounds awesome

[ConcinusMan]

They certainly are:D

[mikem]

Very cool :cool:

[reptileparadise]

We're seeing a lot of variety in pickeringii as well here in Europe. Ofcourse, the well know blue animals, rarely the red animals and coming from blue pairings, the yellow phase animals.
Sadly, no one knows the true origins/locales....
Here's a few pics, including a very nice orange animal (from orange to blue breeding, all six turned out orange or yellow/orange)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/pickeringii1-1.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485704_350149235045585_756702125_n.jpg

[ProXimuS]

Speaking of polymorphism, yesterday I aquired a good size female erythristic T. ordinoides. She's gorgeous. So red all over that it drowns out the stripe, just like "Flicker" the male red one I posted in the past. And this girl is just a little bigger than him. The best part is, Tanya gave me a call and is giving Flicker to me! I'll have a pair of them, both totally red. Neeto!

Will you be breeding them?



Nice pugets reptileparadise:D I love pugets!!!!

[katach]

Speaking of polymorphism, yesterday I aquired a good size female erythristic T. ordinoides. She's gorgeous. So red all over that it drowns out the stripe, just like "Flicker" the male red one I posted in the past. And this girl is just a little bigger than him. The best part is, Tanya gave me a call and is giving Flicker to me! I'll have a pair of them, both totally red. Neeto!

Where are the pictures Richard? :)

[ConcinusMan]

We're seeing a lot of variety in pickeringii as well here in Europe. Ofcourse, the well know blue animals, rarely the red animals and coming from blue pairings, the yellow phase animals.
Sadly, no one knows the true origins/locales....
Here's a few pics, including a very nice orange animal (from orange to blue breeding, all six turned out orange or yellow/orange)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/pickeringii1-1.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485704_350149235045585_756702125_n.jpg

Very nice. :)

They look to me like Olympia/Tumwater to Tacoma (South Puget Sound) area snakes. That's where I've been finding the "zipper" dorsal striped ones in yellow and blue/green/aqua, occasionally with small faint orange specks on the sides or bars of yellow or blue/green.


Will you be breeding them?


I'll answer that in another thread.

More pics:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/2ja1rr.jpg

http://oi47.tinypic.com/i1yxk9.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

http://oi46.tinypic.com/ke6y50.jpg

http://oi49.tinypic.com/amdztk.jpg

[Steveo]

Nice. I wonder if anyone has tried to develop a bright green line. Maybe I'll give it a go in a few years if any of my F1s turn out to be green :cool:

[BUSHSNAKE]

just a couple more picures of blue phase

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful Joe.

[Invisible Snake]

Nice!

[ProXimuS]

Awesome pics;)(to both of you!)

[ConcinusMan]

Puget Sound Garters & Polymorphism | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/puget-sound-garters-polymorphism/)