Gravid radix

[Dan72]

So yesterday I mowed the yard, while checking the many hides setup around the yard I came across a gravid?? (think I'm right) female. At first I didn't even notice the gravid situation, I was looking at her because she seems to have the exact coloring of what Goldie would look like as an adult. Then I noticed gravid. Now two things immediately crossed my mind. Let her go and hope she stays in the yard to see what becomes of the litter. Or, take her in and help her along until the litter arrives and see what she has. Now I know members on here will fall on either side of the fence on this one, but let me first say that this would not even be a issue I would have dealt with 2 months ago. BUt knowing that my albino had to come from somewhere last year, the chance that this could be the gal is soooo tempting. Now if nothing comes of the litter but some healthy looking snakes then everybody goes right back into the yard where they would have been anyway. I don't want to miss a chance to see this happen for myself without being on youtube. If mom and babies (fingers crossed) end up getting free room and board out of me and nothing else comes of it then so be it. But if she ends up tossing out an albino or two then we might have a different bridge to cross. I'll worry about any and all of that later. First thing is to get her settled in, happy, and babies, then go from there. I want to use this as a learnning oppurtunity and gain something from this experience. Pics were taken in plenty yesterday so I'll get them posted just as soon as I can. This will be the thread through this experience where I'll ask questions as they arrise and I hope that you guys will do what you do best and help out with any addvice and/or encouraging words. Again for anyone that may think I'm doing the wrong thing here, I look at the situation this way. Released she would be on her own to let nature do what it will. Inside she'll get a solid roof over her head, meals in her belly, and the babies get a better shot (I feel) at making it past day 1, week 1, month 1. Everyone on here learned all they know through trial and error, researching, picking more experienced members brains, so on and so forth. I hope to do all those things through this. Pics soon.

[guidofatherof5]

You have covered a lot of issues and seem to have a plan in place.
Looking forward to seeing some photos. Photos of radixes are awesome but gravid radixes are even better.

[Dan72]

You have covered a lot of issues and seem to have a plan in place.
Looking forward to seeing some photos. Photos of radixes are awesome but gravid radixes are even better.

Thanks Steve, you and Mark might bear the brunt of my inexperience in this. I spoke with Mark yesterday and he welcomed me to call anytime with any questions or concerns. I'm really excited and looking forward to everything this experience will offer. She is a beauty.

[chris-uk]

It looks like you have a solid plan and reasoning behind taking this gravid female in. I hope she settles in nicely, and that you're lucky enough to have found the mother of your albino, and that she mated with a het albino male again. :)

[Dan72]

Yeah, who knows Chris? This for me is trying to absorb as much of this hobby as possible within the means I have available right now. My backyard has always been an available resource that until I found the albino this year I never really cared to enjoy but from afar. Now it seems a little more personal and I really want to learn as much as possible. If and when that can be gained by whats right at your back door I feel I'd be silly not to take advantage of it.

[Dan72]

Here are some of the pics. When I first picked her up, she let me have it pretty good so in the one photo of her vent area, did that come out because she's gravid and as big as she is? Once she calmed down, everything went back to its appropriate place. Good looking snake. As you can tell from the photo, at some point in her life, she lost the back end of her tail. Might put some more pics up later but will definitely catalog this process with photos from time to time as I make my updates.

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[guidofatherof5]

Possibly gravid. The next 30-40 days should tell.

[chris-uk]

With respect to the vent - has she been musking a lot? One of mine used to musk with such force that it prolapsed slightly and went straight back into place when she calmed down.

[Dan72]

With respect to the vent - has she been musking a lot? One of mine used to musk with such force that it prolapsed slightly and went straight back into place when she calmed down.

Chris I don't know who/what, or how often she was musking before I found her. But when I found her she did musk me pretty darn good, so yes I think that is what is going on in the photo of the vent area. After she calmed down everything went back to normal. As far as a gravid garter goes should they be treated with any special instructions in mind? Don't handle any more than needed, anything like that? I just wonderd how delicate a situation a snakes pregnancy is.

[chris-uk]

Steve's your best man for gravid radix advice. I don't think they are particularly delicate when gravid though, the more significant thing with this girl will be her move to captivity. She'll need time to settle, once she's settled in you will have a better idea as to how much contact she accepts. Given you may return her to the wild I'd minimise handling.

[guidofatherof5]

Being a just caught snake I would think her stress level is high. I would handle as little as possible.
Disturbing her as little as possible also.

[katach]

She is pretty. You could call that one Stubs. Is there any clues to what could have happened to her tail?

[Dan72]

No idea on the tail Kat, could have been anything. This won't be a hands on situation with her. The plan, (depending what is delievered) is to release her and the young back to the wild. My main reasons for bringing her in is to use a WC snakes gravid situation as a learnning curve to see if this is even anything I want to mess with in the future. If it turns out to be an experience I want to repeat with snakes I acquire in the future then so be it, if I discover it is a little more than what I wish to be a part of then I'll know maybe to base my future acquistions on keeping things same sex around here. I plan to do everything and then some to make her time with us a positive thing. Where for her everything is as favorable to be safe healthy and secure as she prepares to have the litter, and recover after. For the baby snakes a safe place to put some time under them so maybe the big bad world won't be as big and bad. Ultimately it is an event to event decision making process where the outcome of one will dictate what happens next.

[katach]

Sounds reasonable. She still needs something to be called though;)

[Dan72]

Funny you bring that up, my wife says we're going to call her momma snake. Not to formal were any attachments are made yet a name given so we know who we're talking about in conversation.

[katach]

Momma snake works. I have a feeling you will end up with a new adult snake and a bunch of babies before all is said and done though. :D Garters are like crisps, you can stop at just one or two. :D

[Dan72]

Not to place the cart before the horse. Something I've had to think of though. If this snake produces any living albinos when the time comes. If she would be mated to a albino male in the future would the % on the normal young of that litter be 66% het for albino? She would have to be het for albino herself, plus mated with male that is het to produce any this litter. What would her % be if that ends up being the case, 50%?

[Dan72]

Momma snake works. I have a feeling you will end up with a new adult snake and a bunch of babies before all is said and done though. :D Garters are like crisps, you can stop at just one or two. :D

Yeah, never say never right. My first wish is for a smooth experience. Little stress on me and even less so on her. But there is that fingers crossed part of me that hopes one or two of her offspring are special in a way that gives a sign that she is worth hanging on to. My wife could kill me but I have the garter bug something terrible.

[katach]

You are in the right place then. You are safe and with friends...

Hi, my name is Kat, and I'm addicted to garter snakes. :D

[Selkielass]

Very nice looking lady.
The gravid Butlers I took in last summer adjusted to captivity. *very* quickly as they were constantly hungry and quick to associate me with food. They gentled up more quickly and completely than any of the non gravid females, males or juveniles. I have since found.
I had good results with small but frequent meals, and I found my hungry ladies eager to try almost anything. After a quick inspection. Younger wc's have been harder to tempt with anything unfamiliar.

The birth process is amazing. I'll never have more than a few tanks of snakes, but ill keep a small tank in reserve for little. Ones transition. They are more fun to watch than añy other small thankful of critters I. Can think of. (Barrels of monkeys have always struck me as mean, not fun at all.)

[Dan72]

Going out later to purchase some nightcrawlers. Momma snake hasn't eaten in two days that I know of, could be longer, so thought I would offer a meal today and see if shes hungry. On a side note, same purchase run will have me getting pinkies for the first time for my other girls (and a lodger I have:rolleyes:). Try to get everybody on the pinks, this should prove comical today. Should I offer momma snake things that maybe she shouldn't get used to eating on the chance she finds herself back in the wild and has no way of eating such things? Or, spoil her and feed her well while shes her because it makes no difference? I understand out on their own a meal is had whenever one presents itself so wasn't sure about momma and pinks.

[EasternGirl]

Congrats on your find, Dan! I think that you are giving her a nice, safe place to give birth. I commend you wanting to help that beautiful girl. Keep us posted.

[Steveo]

I wouldn't force her to eat rodents, but if she'll take them readily I don't see a problem with it. It's not an unnatural food, just one they don't commonly find. The night I brought my wild-caught wandering garter home she gulped down a half-swallowed f/t mouse that another snake couldn't fit :p

My personal opinion is that as long as you're offering a typical food item to a healthy snake, they'll eat when they're hungry. There's certainly nothing wrong with not feeding her mice, but without knowing her feeding history we can't match her wild diet anyway.

[Dan72]

Okay drum roll please......insert roll here.......... three out of four snakes approve!! Momma snake ate a pinkie and a half plus a little nightcrawler. Goldie ate a little crawler plus a half pinkie cut in half. The male lodger ate nightcrawler and one pinkie. Butterscotch ate probably too much nightcrawler (which was operator error, not hers) so when she got to the half pinkie cut in half, she sniffed it and moved on. So momma got the half, figured she's eating for more than herself. The video attempts were not great at best, either the snakes didn't cooperate or the lighting/focus was bad. Might post the video of the male eating his. It's the best but by that I mean the least horrible. But over all success! Very happy with my gang, oh the pinkies were scented with nightcrawler but I'm sure you all got that. So for some WC garters who I'm guessing have never meet a mouse, loved it like I love, well...... food.

[guidofatherof5]

I think the city radixes probably come in contact with pinkies more often then we all realize.
Considering the amount of wild mice I see I'm guessing my locals taste them often.

[Dan72]

So momma snake is settled in nicely. She has eaten twice and doing everything pretty normally. I'm not handling her (mostly so I don't get attached:rolleyes:), but I watch her all the time. She always wins the staring contests, I blink first. She really is a pretty radix and upon closer inspection of her and Goldie I really do think I'm looking at Goldie as an adult. Wednesday pinkies are up again. When she ate them last week she had one and half of another that Butterscotch didn't touch. Any reason why this week she couldn't have two? With most of your adults do you guys feed two (more) pinkies to an adult? Busy week and weekend this last one with that family wedding, but hope to post some pics this week of the gang.

[guidofatherof5]

"mostly so I don't get attached"

Who are you trying to kid. She's worked her magic on you already and you know it.
You're amongst friends Dan, it OK to admit it.:D

[Dan72]

I've read in a couple different threads where members gravid snakes had a bigger appetite than when not expecting. Should I feed her more often than I would otherwise? She ate pinkies/nightcrawlers on Thursday last week. Then nightcrawlers on Sunday. Then today pinkies /nightcrawlers. Is this enough? Feed more often? She ate 1 pinky with the crawlers last week, I bumped that up to 2 today. She ate them like it was NO problem at all, almost like a snack. What do those of you with adult snakes that are on pinkies feed in term of quantity in a meal? 2, 3, ? Also, not that I do, but can multiple gravid females be kept in the same enclosure or should they be kept seperate?

[guidofatherof5]

How much to feed as a relative question depending on the snakes size, activity and metabolism.
You should be able judge whether she is getting enough and not too much.
If she seems to be processing the food then give her more.

I can see two initial problems with housing gravid females together.
1- The possiblity you might loose track of who's babies they are.
2- Another large snake doubles the chance babies can be injured or killed (rollovers and crushing).

[Invisible Snake]

I would say feed her more because she could be eating for up to 20+ baby snakes. And adding a reptile vitamin that has calcium wouldn't hurt either.

[Dan72]

Thanks. So Steve when you get gravid gals on the ranch, do you seperate as soon as you are sure that is the case, or do you wait until delivery gets closer then remove?

[guidofatherof5]

With quarantine being 90 days they are by themselves.
Most of my snakes deliver within 60-70 days as a rule.

[Dan72]

So I took a shot on a substrate just to try something. Wal-Mart carries Critter Care, so I bought a bag and placed about a 2 inch layer in with momma snake. She has ate twice since adding the substrate. I feed her with the hemostats (thanks Steve) and do it on top of her hide to keep her out of the substrate. Her hide is a childs shoe box that I turned upsidedown and tore a hole for an entrance so it kind of acts like a table top. So today was the first time the nightcrawler struggle led down into the substrate... you know where I'm going with this. Substrate stuck to worm, swallowed by snake. So now I'm worried. Two things, I thought the Critter Care was just some type of recycled paper product so I was hoping a snake might pass digested paper the way we would but the bag says the Critter Care is made from reclaimed cellulose fiber?? Is this recycled paper? At any rate whatever it is how many days and stool passings do I need her to get under her before I can stop watching her like a hawk?? I feel like a terrible snake keeper and never want to get away from the paper towels now:o. Anyone care to ease my mind here? Thanks.

[guidofatherof5]

Take a deep breath. Everything should be OK.
Keep an eye on her but don't worry about it.
I would feed an extra worm just to make sure there is plenty of fluid on her gut.
Just my opinion.

[Dan72]

The worm that had the substrate Steve was the 1st one that went in. She had another and a pinky after that which were clear of any substrate.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds good.

[ProXimuS]

While talking about snakes ingesting substrate.....About 30 minutes ago,I fed my snake in his waterbowl like usual, and he always(from what I've seen in the past couple weeks that he's let me watch) eats in/over his waterbowl. But today he decided he wanted to eat in his hide. His hide and his bowl are a combo, so he can stay partially in his hide and still get to his bowl:p I didn't notice he was doing that on the first fish until he was almost done swallowing. He had a piece of aspen hanging on his mouth, so I'm not sure if he got any down with the food. I moved him into another container(with no substrate) to finish his food.

I'm a little concerned...Is there anything in specific thing I should be looking out for now(possible symptoms)? Will it pass in his poop?

[kibakiba]

Monitor his pooping, and if you can catch him while he is pooping, make sure he isn't having trouble passing it.

[ProXimuS]

Can do! Thanks:)

[katach]

If feeding in the tank you always should be monitoring. Even if they tend to eat in one spot. That way you can be there if any substrate gets stuck to the food and remove it quickly. You can also try putting a dish towel over the substrate before you feed, but you still need to keep a watchful eye on them.

[Dan72]

Just an update. Mamma snake ate 3 bigger pinks on Saturday (no problem with this girls appetite). She seems to be doing great. I'm the one getting nervous. Can't wait to see what she has if any. As I'm thinking about it, the plan as you know is to see what she has and if everyone is pretty common radix looking they'll go back to the yard. My questions are these unless you guys with more experience suggest different. If the mother fails to kick out any albinos which would be the most obvious thing to spot and all the babies don't show any signs of being anything other than healthy. Mom will get one more good meal whenever she is ready to eat after birthing and then released. The babies plan since this was to help me get an understanding of what it takes to care for them was going to be this. Raise them long enough to give the ones that live a better shot outside. So I was thinking raise them through till about the middle/end of September and then release so they can brumate normally before winter. OR, should I raise them through the winter and release in spring about middle/end of April? What do you guys think? Of course if this girl gives birth to 1 albino then all bets are off because the wife already agreed to keeping the mom and whatever babies I want because everyone would have to be het to one degree or another, right?

[guidofatherof5]

If any albinos are born then all the normals would be het. Radixes usually don't show any color at birth. After a few sheds color can be seen.
I would suggest keeping the babies until Spring. Releasing them in the Fall gives them a very short time to find a brumation site on top of finding food and predator evasion.
You should also be aware of the weather situation when you release the mom. If we are having one of those heatwaves that can occur at that time it would be best to keep her awhile longer or even do a Spring release.
I will also warn you that working with a group of babies all Fall, Winter and most of the Spring will change you. They will own you and your heart. It's hard to turn them out into the wild after that kind of bonding.:D
Just my opinion.

[katach]

Come on Steve, you know as soon as those babies arrive he's going to keep every one of them. :D

[Dan72]

My first thought was to keep everyone thru the winter and release in spring. I just figured it gave the young ones a better fighting chance. Kat I know what Steve says is true and keeping everything will be an issue when spring rolls around and I've become attached to everyone. My wife is the one who will be my reality check on this however. Steph has stated that she is okay with me using this as a learning tool, but she only signed off on Butterscotch and Goldie coming in for good. The mom and X amount of surviving young come spring will be a hard sell come spring if no albinos are present at birth. I have no way to know how all of this will resolve with spring being as far off as it is. But when it gets here if I am having issues with releasing the group into the cruel harsh world I know there are some great snake loving people here that would help find good homes for this group, right;):D.

[Dan72]

As far as getting my ducks in a row and preparing for whats coming, a little help. Best way to keep the group hydrated? I know drying out not getting enough water early is a concern for just born snakes. I was thinking about getting some of that reptile moss that you can keep damp and as a water dish maybe a butter lid with fresh water changes often. Is it better to use like a paper towel substrate or none at all seeing as how many young snakes will be going often? If they shed right at birth or close to it, how soon and often will they shed again? Should I place some small rocks in to help with this? I'm guessing several hides as well? If anyone can direct me to pics of their setups for births or threads that have talked about it or want to share some pics here that would be sweet.

[kimbosaur]

Generally, I think it's best to release them as soon as possible because you don't really know how their time in captivity will affect them/their environment once they are released back into the wild. If you keep them through winter, the most ethical thing you can do is find them new homes (imo). :)

[EasternGirl]

Just catching up to this thread...so I want to respond to a few things: First, my WC easterns all had to get used to eating pinks...although I would guess that we do have mice around my house outside...since we often find them in our garage...they probably were not used to eating many when they lived out there. I also had to scent pinks with worms...and fish too...to get them to eat anything other than worms. Now, Cee Cee's favorite food is pinky! Second, when Cee Cee was gravid...she had an appetite like a horse. I feed her every 4 days...and more than I would usually feed her. She probably ate about 4 pinkies worth of food a week. As usual, I just watched for a tummy bulge to know she'd had enough. Third, every single one of my snakes has accidently ingested substrate at some point. Not to say that it can't be very dangerous...it certainly can if they don't pass it...but I have never had a snake have issues because of it. I have shredded paper pieces in a couple of my tanks and it easily gets stuck on food...I have had a couple incidences with snakes ingesting it...and I don't worry about that so much as I have also seen the paper get into the water dish and it disintegrates pretty quickly. Aspen is of course more of a concern...but I did see one of my snakes get a little aspen on food the other day...and so far the snake is acting fine and pooping normally. They usually manage to get it off before swallowing the food. Try putting paper towels down over the substrate...even when feeding with hemostats. :)

[Dan72]

So an update..... moms eyes are showing shed. Pre-birth shed so I'm thinking babies soon, fingers crossed. Should I after the shed move her to a tank or tub with just paper towel? I know how much she has enjoyed the cheapy Wal-Mart version of care fresh to dig and burrow through and I'm thinking the babies when they start coming might be a pain to gather in this substrate. Thoughts. If I did move her just give her the basics, water, hide? I took some pics of her eyes, try to get them up soon.

[katach]

You could move her after the shed. I would put some stuff in there she is used to. If she isn't comfortable or doesn't feel safe she could hold the babies in.

[guidofatherof5]

So an update..... moms eyes are showing shed. Pre-birth shed so I'm thinking babies soon, fingers crossed. Should I after the shed move her to a tank or tub with just paper towel? I know how much she has enjoyed the cheapy Wal-Mart version of care fresh to dig and burrow through and I'm thinking the babies when they start coming might be a pain to gather in this substrate. Thoughts. If I did move her just give her the basics, water, hide? I took some pics of her eyes, try to get them up soon.

I would suggest not moving her. No additional stress at this time.

[Steveo]

Birthing is messy and smelly. Just keep in mind that wherever she delivers will need to be cleaned, so everyone will have to be moved somewhere clean once it's over.

[Dan72]

Mama Snake in shed


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[guidofatherof5]

Birthing is messy and smelly. Just keep in mind that wherever she delivers will need to be cleaned, so everyone will have to be moved somewhere clean once it's over.

Interesting comment Steveo.
I'll agree it's messy but have never associated it with any kind of odor. I'll have to do more sniffing during delivery.;)

[kibakiba]

Mama smelled like tortilla chips when she was giving birth, but she always smells like them... Especially after shedding. And Pumpkin smelled like pumpkin seeds when he was born, which is why his name is pumpkin seed. Those are the only two smells I've smelled when birthing was going on.

[katach]

I didn't notice any smell with Willows delivery last year either.

[Dan72]

Woke today to a shed in her tank. Babies soon, fingers crossed.

[mikem]

Good luck to ya! :cool: How long after shed do they usually give birth?

[guidofatherof5]

I would say that's unknown for the most part. I have some that give birth a day or so after a shed and others that give birth weeks after a shed.
I've never seen a real pattern to it.
Just my opinion.

[mikem]

Alright, I appreciate the insight :cool:

[katach]

Good luck Dan. My girl just shed today too.

[Dan72]

BABIES!!! Mom just had baby 1. Everything must have went fine seeing as how I wasn't even around to see it:mad:;). No noticeable problems so I'll wait to see what happens next........ nothing.........nothing................ this is going to be frustrating for me. Keep you posted, and YES, I know. PICS.:D

[guidofatherof5]

Congrats Dan.

You're not going to be too busy with the babies to make it down here on Sunday are you?

Luke warm water bath for the babies to get that first shed off. Just an inch of water is all that is need.
Watch those little scrubs as they learn very quickly that a wet radix can climb right out of a plastic or glass tub.

[EasternGirl]

It can take a while...hours, days....Cee Cee had 3 live babies over a course of a week and stillborns to follow for two more weeks. I hope she has healthy babies! Fingers crossed and sending good thoughts your way! Keep us posted.

[Dan72]

Coming for sure! How long in the water bath Steve? Can I see the little sheds as easy as any other or do they just fall apart, thought I remember us talking about that.

[Dan72]

It can take a while...hours, days....Cee Cee had 3 live babies over a course of a week and stillborns to follow for two more weeks. I hope she has healthy babies! Fingers crossed and sending good thoughts your way! Keep us posted.

Thanks Marnie.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Yay, this is so exciting!!! I hope she has lots of healthy little babies and some healthy albinos too ;)

[ProXimuS]

OOO Great news!!! Can't wait to hear how many she has;)

[Dan72]

So, almost 24 hours and nothing new to report. Mom snake is still huge so I know she can't be done. Is this normal? I do know you all have said it could take days sometimes, I just wanted it to be quicker. I'll keep you posted.

[katach]

Thanks for the update! Just be patient. Be sure you aren't hovering, she might feel like it's not safe. Just let her be alone and check on her quietly and quickly every now and then.

[Dan72]

Thanks for the update! Just be patient. Be sure you aren't hovering, she might feel like it's not safe. Just let her be alone and check on her quietly and quickly every now and then.

That's been the plan. Going to bed and hope to see something in the morning.

[Dan72]

Well I have NO idea what this girl is up to. Thursday last week she drops 1 out of nowhere, now almost a week later and nothing. She is still large so something is in there, hope she gets whatever it is out soon before it becomes an issue for her. The 1 is doing fine, eating like a champ, seems strong.