Cuitzeo baby(ies?)

[chris-uk]

I had a bit of a surprise at lunchtime.

Some of you will be aware that our Cuitzeos are in a viv near my desk. I often glance past the laptop screen when I see movement, and I spotted something moving, looked up and saw a head looking towards me. Except the head was too small to be Vlad. By the time I got up it had disappeared.

It turns out that Lacrimosa has been gravid after all. I'd come to the conclusion that she wasn't because she wasn't put weight on so quickly and wasn't bulking up in the lower third. The evidence would suggest that I'd come to the wrong conclusion.

At 1:30 I found a baby Lake Cuitzeo Garter exploring the viv. :D Cute little guy (or gal) with the same chin and tail as it's parents.

Throw in a flurry of activity as we moved the baby into a RUB and Vlad into a bigger RUB.

"Baby C" had already freed the skin around it's head. And completed it's first shed in the RUB. I gave it a bit of a swim in a warm bowl (Steve suggested that) and since then it's been exploring or sleeping in the RUB. I guessed at that point that it was between 150-200mm from nose to tail tip.

Around 2:30 I found a jellybean. :(

I checked on Lacci through the afternoon and although she seemed restless (moving frequently from warm to cold hide), she seemed OK and nothing else to report until 6:30.

Between 5:30 and 6:30 she delivered a stillborn. :( It didn't make it out of the yolk sac. It could have been delivered anytime in the last hour while I was eating, and there was no movement, I opened the sac in case but there's no sign of life in this one. I won't know if it would have lived if I'd been there to get it out of it's yolk sac.
Being a man of science I used the stillborn as an opportunity to photograph a newborn Cuitzeo and get a more accurate length. It was 230mm long. Other than not being alive it looked like it had developed normally.

Lacci has been quite active while I've been typing climbing onto her shelf and the Thamock, and spent the last 5 minutes staring at me from the top of her rock. She doesn't look like she's got anything else in her, so I'm not expecting any more live or stillborn.
Cuitzeo babies certainly weren't in the plan for this year, but I guess Vlad and Lacci were ready afterall.

I know what you're going to ask. I'll add some photos shortly, I need to switch from work laptop to home desktop to get the photos off the camera.

[gregmonsta]

Congrats mate ;)

[reptileparadise]

Woohoo! Congrats mate :D

Look forward to seeing some photo's!
If I understand correctly, only two babies so far of which one is alive? Hmm, wondering if you'll find more tomorrow morning... We've noticed such a strange thing with our cyrtopsis as well last year. We've never seen any get born, but learned last year that these guys didn't go "all at once", but she gave birth during the day, explaining how we've never seen any true activity with them!

Good luck rearing the tiny thing! If you might need any advice.... ;)

[guidofatherof5]

New scrubs are always a joy. Sounds like a special one.
It's only 9pm there. Plenty of time to post some photos :D

[Invisible Snake]

Congratulations! Did you brumate Vlad and Lacrimosa?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

As you know I'm dissapointed as I know the age ect but I guess you know that.

[katach]

Congrats!

[chris-uk]

Woohoo! Congrats mate

Look forward to seeing some photo's!
If I understand correctly, only two babies so far of which one is alive? Hmm, wondering if you'll find more tomorrow morning... We've noticed such a strange thing with our cyrtopsis as well last year. We've never seen any get born, but learned last year that these guys didn't go "all at once", but she gave birth during the day, explaining how we've never seen any true activity with them!

Good luck rearing the tiny thing! If you might need any advice....

Yes, so far one live and one dead. I think she's finished as she's now laying on her shelf in the open rather than moving from one hide to another - her behaviour is suggesting that she isn't in "birthing mode" any more.
The plan is to keep the little guy safe and to try feeding him tomorrow. If there's any specific advice you can give for Cuitzeos I'm always listening.


New scrubs are always a joy. Sounds like a special one.
It's only 9pm there. Plenty of time to post some photos

Your wish is my command. Keep scrolling.


Congratulations! Did you brumate Vlad and Lacrimosa?

No, they weren't brumated as we didn't plan for them to breed this year. They were on a schedule for next year, but you know what nature does with human plans sometimes. We'd separated them before, but Vlad stopped eating when he was on his own in a large RUB. They were due to be split up in a few weeks when our radix pair leave quarantine to act as company for the respective Cuitzeo.


Now for some photos. ..
These were all just before he sloughed his first skin so he's looking a bit rough, but then he is only around 2 hours old. You can see he's broken the shed around his mouth where it's hanging off his lower jaw and the eye in one of the photos has what looks like a retained shed (obviously it's not retained, he'd just not shed it yet). For perspective, the edge of the water bowl he's on is between 5-10mm (say 1/4" to 3/8" in American) wide. And as I said in the earlier post, the stillborn was 230mm (9") long and I think this little guy is about the same length.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/CuitzeoBaby1_-_2h_old_from_behind_preshed_-_resize_-_2480.JPG (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10753&title=cuitzeo-baby-1&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/CuitzeoBaby1_-_2h_old_preshed_on_water_bowl_-_resized_1024w_-_2483.JPG (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10754&title=cuitzeo-baby-1&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/CuitzeoBaby1_-_2h_old_preshed_on_waterbowl_2_-_resized_1024w_-_2485.JPG (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10755&title=cuitzeo-baby-1&cat=734)

I just popped in to check on him, and he's half in one of the cardboard box hides and part in his water bowl and flicking his tongue at me as I looked at him. Got to be a good sign. :D

[Selkielass]

Wonderful!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking little scrub. Congrats.

[BUSHSNAKE]

one of my favorite species, congrats

[chris-uk]

As you know I'm dissapointed as I know the age ect but I guess you know that.

That's a whole discussion that's been had elsewhere. And to a degree a difference in philosophy - allowing sexual activity at a natural age, or deciding an artificial breeding age. There's just anecdotal evidence to support either argument. I'm happy to discuss, but not in this topic. The baby has been born, that is what this topic is about.

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Well all I can say to that is I would think twice about selling to you in the future. The state of the litter is a clue!

[kibakiba]

I find that a bit disrespectful. You sold him the snakes, they are his to do with as he pleases. In the wild, that could happen.

[Stefan-A]

No drama.

[guidofatherof5]

Well all I can say to that is I would think twice about selling to you in the future. The state of the litter is a clue!

Considering all the variables when it come to litters, I'm not sure the youth of the snakes can be nailed down as the cause of an unproductive litter.
I've had litter like this occur with much older snakes too.
At least with my experience I've found first litter to be a mixed bag of results at any age.;)

[BUSHSNAKE]

Considering all the variables when it come to litters, I'm not sure the youth of the snakes can be nailed down as the cause of an unproductive litter.
I've had litter like this occur with much older snakes too.
At least with my experience I've found first litter to be a mixed bag of results at any age.;)
i agree, well said....my mexican garter females are the same age i believe and ive had excellent litters so far

[Invisible Snake]

Hey chris are you going to keep the baby(ies)?

[chris-uk]

Hey chris are you going to keep the baby(ies)?

This is our first baby, it's not going anywhere!
Once we know it's eating it will get it's own Pratchett name (all our snakes have names from Discworld novels) and will be spoilt rotten. If Lacci gives us a more than a couple more we'd have to consider whether to keep them all, but I don't think that's going to happen.

[chris-uk]

Just checked on both before going to bed. Mother is back in her favourite position in her shelf, she looks comfortable enough, I'll get some food in her tomorrow morning. Baby is also looking good, he's in a damp moss hide, looking out and flicking his tongue at anything that moves (even if it is outside the RUB).

[ScimitarX]

Congrats on the baby, hes a cute lil lone wolf :)

[Light of Dae]

Congrats Chris! Glad the mother n child are good!

Btw I think you n your wifey do an awesome job taking care of your snakes!

[katach]

Here Chris. Let's try this again.
Congrats on your new addition! Please keep us posted on this little one progress.

[kibakiba]

Congrats! I hope he thrives and gets really chubby (but in a healthy way) with you guys!

[Stefan-A]

Congratulations.

[chris-uk]

Thank you Kat and Chantel. Baby is still doing well this morning, and Lacci is on her platform catching some heat.

[chris-uk]

Good news.

Lacrimosa has just stuffed herself with salmon, making up for the lack of appetite over the last couple of weeks. Good strong feeding response and striking out at the food on the tongs. If Char eats like this after labour I think it would be the equivalent of ordering a couple of large from Dominoes, then having to call again for a second delivery. :)

Baby C has also eaten. Some small cuts of salmon. I put 15 pieces on a jam jar lid he's eaten about 10 of them. Looks like he's left the bigger pieces, so maybe I overestimated the size. I'll cut them in half and see if he takes some more. Great that he's straight onto eating salmon fillet. He was having a swim when I put the food in, and in the time it took me to feed Lacci he had eaten and slithered back into his hide.

He seems to favour the cool hide which has some damp sphagnum moss.

[guidofatherof5]

Good/great news all the way around.

[guidofatherof5]

Eating, swimming and relaxing in the hide.
Sounds like someone is enjoying the service at your Thamnophis B&B.

[Dan72]

Just got cuaght up, keep up the good work, and congrats Chris.

[katach]

Fantastic news! Glad the little one ate and that mom is back to eating!

[Natrix]

Well done Chris ;)

[chris-uk]

The little guy has been coming out to explore (not that there is much to explore for now in his relatively sterile RUB). And has been out and eaten half the salmon pieces I put in for him half an hour ago. Seems that he likes salmon, I'll try adding some pinky legs next.

At the moment he's got two hides (little cardboard boxes) cool one has some moss in it, and the warm one just has a bit of kitchen roll screwed up to narrow the entrance and give more security. I've not used a proper substrate yet, I want to see him pooing on the kitchen roll before I try him on aspen.

Lacci is back to her normal self, on her shelf where she can watch me as I work. And digesting the big meal she had yesterday. She'll get fed with the others on Saturday, I'm sure she'll be hungry again by then.

[Light of Dae]

Awesome update!

But you know...

there is still something lacking...

MORE PICTURES!!!!! lol

[tress29]

What a cutie! Will be fun watching the picture progression as he ages!

[chris-uk]

He's quite shy. And fast. And I discovered his musk machinery is working this morning when I took him out to change the kithcen roll.
I'll try some more photos over the weekend, an unfortunate consequence of using a RUB is that the plastic isn't clear enough to take photos, so I need at least the lid open to get anything worth posting.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

He looks blooming marvelous

[EasternGirl]

Just catching up to this thread. I'm so excited for you Chris! Congrats on the little one. Cee Cee had problems...you know that...and she is at least 3 years old. I think you are doing a wonderful job.

[chris-uk]

Thanks Marnie. The little guy was out exploring again earlier, he's found that he can push the moss and stuff out of the hides. I can see he's going to be an interesting one.

[mikem]

Awesome little garter :cool:

[chris-uk]

Quick update (sorry, no pics because Char is writing uni essay at my desk so I can't use my machine to transfer photos from the camera).
BabyC is doing well, he's eaten everyday and seems happy on both salmon and pinky parts. He's a bit shy, but I occasionally catch him in the open and he doesn't bolt straight to a hide. He's pooing well, I know this because the last one was in the palm of my hand :). His hides at the moment are small cardboard boxes, and he seems to like moving them around. In short, he's still a great looking scrub and appears to be doing everything a scrub would be expected to do.

Lacci has had a couple of good meals since giving birth. She's been inactive and spending all her time in her hides since I took Vlad out, but at least she's coming out for food (Vlad isn't, and musked me for the first time in months when I took him out of his temporary RUB).

[guidofatherof5]

Great update.
You're still on the hook for the photos though.;)

[chris-uk]

Fair enough Steve. But you'll have to put up with camera phone snaps for now. I've just added better ventilation to his RUB as he's going to be in there for another couple of weeks, and I've given him some aspen rather than kitchen roll as a substrate (he'll be coming out to eat on kitchen roll though). The RUB is about the size of a sheet of A4, so he's got plenty of room for now.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/BabyC_2.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10809&title=babyc6-june&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/BabyC_1.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10808&title=babyc6-june&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/BabyC_4-1.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=10810&title=babyc6-june&cat=734)

He doesn't want to eat big meals every day, I'm putting down more than he can eat and so far he's eaten well every other day (on the other day he has a snack but doesn't get close to clearing the dish). It would seem that he knows when he's hungry and when he doesn't need to eat. He's due to eat well today, so I'll find out shortly if he is an alternate day eater.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Tidy.

[Invisible Snake]

Cute little scrub, but he looks so lonely, maybe you should send him to me lol :D

[chris-uk]

Cute little scrub, but he looks so lonely, maybe you should send him to me lol :D

Nooooooooooooo!

He's our first baby (second, real baby due in August :)) and he's not going anywhere.

[guidofatherof5]

Nooooooooooooo!

He's our first baby (second, real baby due in August :)) and he's not going anywhere.

Good call Chris.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Ye Steve want's him sent to the ranch instead;)

[chris-uk]

The little scrub just cleared all the salmon I put in for him 10 minutes ago. He's thriving nicely. And he's hanging out on top of his warm hide now.
I thoroughly recommend Mexican garters. :)

[Invisible Snake]

The little scrub just cleared all the salmon I put in for him 10 minutes ago. He's thriving nicely. And he's hanging out on top of his warm hide now.
I thoroughly recommend Mexican garters. :)

No way, then Mexican garters would steal our American garters jobs as pets, lol jk.

[stevenrudge]

Nice one Chris,its always a lovely surprise when you have baby's,your not expecting(l'm only talking snakes)ok

[chris-uk]

Nice one Chris,its always a lovely surprise when you have baby's,your not expecting(l'm only talking snakes)ok
Thankfully the one due on 27 August is not a surprise. :)

[Invisible Snake]

Hey Chris do the Cuitzeo's have cream or yellowish belly scales?

[chris-uk]

Hey Chris do the Cuitzeo's have cream or yellowish belly scales?

It's more of an incandescent/steel blue on the belly, except the chin (creamy colour) and the underside of the tail (pink).
Here's a picture of the father which shows all the underside colours, it's doesn't show the colour of the belly scales particularly well but is the best in the gallery showing the belly.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/IMAG0079.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking and good sized male you have there. Nice.

[Invisible Snake]

Cool, thanks for posting that pic.

[chris-uk]

Good looking and good sized male you have there. Nice.

That's an old pictures too, he's had at least 3 sheds since that photo.


Cool, thanks for posting that pic.

No problem :) You can find more Cuitzeo pics in my gallery album, and scattered in the T. equis cuitzeoensis behaviour thread.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

How common are they in the British pet trade id love to get one?Nice looking male you've got their.

[chris-uk]

How common are they in the British pet trade id love to get one?Nice looking male you've got their.

Not common at all. There's a couple of Dutch breeders, and I'm aware of 6 pairs in the UK (there's bound to be others).

[ProXimuS]

Chris, your Cuitzeos are beautiful, love the dark bellies too!


Btw I also love who evers shirt that is in the background:cool:

[stevenrudge]

Thankfully the one due on 27 August is not a surprise. :)No l was thinking more along the lines a some women you vaguely remember knocking your front door holding a baby claiming your the Dad-not that thats ever happened to me of course!!!?

[chris-uk]

No l was thinking more along the lines a some women you vaguely remember knocking your front door holding a baby claiming your the Dad-not that thats ever happened to me of course!!!?

That moves outside the realms of "surprise" and into the world of paternity tests. :)

[chris-uk]

Chris, your Cuitzeos are beautiful, love the dark bellies too!


Btw I also love who evers shirt that is in the background:cool:

They're really interesting to watch and interact with too, so not just pretty faces to add to a collection. I spend hours with the Cuitzeos.
And I'm glad you like my space invaders geek T-shirt :)

[chris-uk]

The little guy is starting to accept my hands. Today I took him out onto the bed and he actively slithered onto my hands (as well as exploring the duvet). He also looped around one of my fingers and sat looking through my fingers for nearly 5 minutes, maybe he liked the warmth but the rate he's going he'll be happier to be held than either parent. Got to lay the foundations early.
I'm feeding him every other day now, that seems to be the pattern he's chosen. He seems to eat his fill from the smorgasbord I give him, then isn't interested in eating the next day.

[guidofatherof5]

You always seem to increase my vocab. Chris.
Never heard of a duvet. Now I know.

[chris-uk]

You always seem to increase my vocab. Chris.
Never heard of a duvet. Now I know.
But how are you pronouncing it? If you tried 'dove it', try again. I'll test you in the next Skype call.

[guidofatherof5]

I would think dovay.

[chris-uk]

Very quick update.

The little tiddler is doing okay, he's been off his food for the last 5 days, but shed today. So that's likely to be what the problem was. I must have missed the blue eyes in all the chaos which moving house entails. He's on a temporary table in the new snake room, but I should get a chance to get him somewhere more permanent tomorrow.
Sometimes it feels like he's mellowing out, but then he puts on a turn of speed and reminds me that he's still not entirely comfortable being held. He's definitely not one to entwine himself around my fingers, so I think he's going to take a longer time to break in to handling - I did it with Lightning last year, so time will tell if Cuitzeos are all flighty or if they can become used to us if you lay the foundations early.

[thamneil]

Yikes! How did I miss this thread! Great job with the breeding Chris! Baby garters are awesome whether planned or accidental. Nice to see some little Mexicans being made.


No way, then Mexican garters would steal our American garters jobs as pets, lol jk.

^^ I know this is a couple pages back, but I actually almost died of laughter when I read this.

[chris-uk]

I think whipped out the little tiddler for a hold this morning, he's continuing to go from strength to strength. When I got him out of his RUB I thought his eyes were slightly blue and looking at a couple of photos I just took they look cloudy in the photos too, so either he's just going into blue phase or just leaving it (I've not taken him out to hold since Sunday morning so could possibly have missed it, although I think it's more likely he's going into blue).
I also weighed him this morning and he was 10g before he pooed in the weighing container, and 8g after - at such low weights the accuracy of my scales is a bit questionable though. At least he's putting on weight. He eats most feeds if he's left alone and not disturbed, and he gets fed every other day (every day was resulting in him eating every other feed, so I may a# well follow the pattern he's chosen).
Handling is still tough, because he takes time to settle and is pretty quick. Today he settled just up my sleeve and didn't show any sign of coming out for 10 minutes. Unfortunately I need to start work soon so I couldn't wait it out. These Cuitzeos seem to be naturally skittish, but I hope with gentle handling this one will be easier as an adult than either parent.

[guidofatherof5]

I think with the TLC they will get from you and Char should do them well.;)

[EasternGirl]

Sounds like you are doing well with the little guy! Practice for fatherhood perhaps? ;)

[chris-uk]

Sounds like you are doing well with the little guy! Practice for fatherhood perhaps? ;)

Seven weeks to go, and not long before the Doncaster breeders meeting in September.

[infernalis]

Congratulations on the newborn.

[chris-uk]

Not so new now Wayne. He's had his forth shed now and I think he might be a she... Still undecided on the tail, but it makes no odds for now, we still call him "him" and we haven't given a proper name yet, for now the little scrub goes by the name Tiddler.