Taxonomy?

[Pitchfire]

I have found a lot of information on recent Taxonomy debates regarding garter snake and specifically T. elegans. Anybody following this evolution of taxonomy? Is this the current best taxonomy?

CNAH - Standard Common and Current Scientific Names (http://www.cnah.org/nameslist.asp?id=6)
Species Guide - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/)
THE REPTILE DATABASE (http://www.reptile-database.com/)



Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_atratus.phtml)
Thamnophis atratus (Kennicott, 1860)
Bogert’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/bogerti.php)
Thamnophis bogerti Rossman and Burbrink, 2005
Short-headed Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/brachystoma.php)
Thamnophis brachystoma (Cope, 1892)
Butler’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_butleri.phtml)
Thamnophis butleri (Cope, 1889)
Golden-headed Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/chrysocephalus.php)
Thamnophis chrysocephalus (Cope, 1885)
Conant’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/conanti.php)
Thamnophis conanti Rossman and Burbrink, 2005
Sierra Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_couchii.phtml)
Thamnophis couchii (Kennicott, 1859)
Black-necked Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_cyrtopsis.phtml)
Thamnophis cyrtopsis (Kennicott, 1860)
Western Terrestrial Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_elegans.phtml)
Thamnophis elegans (Baird and Girard, 1853)
Mexican Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_eques.phtml)
Thamnophis eques (Reuss, 1834)
Mexican Wandering Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/errans.php)
Thamnophis errans (H. M. Smith, 1942)
Exiled Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/exsul.php)
Thamnophis exsul Rossman 1969
Mesoamerican Highlands Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_fulvus.phtml)
Thamnophis fulvus (Bocourt, 1893)
Giant Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_gigas.phtml)
Thamnophis gigas (Fitch, 1940)
Godman’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/godmani.php)
Thamnophis godmani (Günther, 1894)
Two-striped Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_hammondii.phtml)
Thamnophis hammondii (Kennicott, 1860)
Liner’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/lineri.php)
Thamnophis lineri Rossman and Burbrink, 2005
Checkered Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_marcianus.phtml)
Thamnophis marcianus (Baird and Girard, 1853)
Mexican Black-bellied Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_melanogaster.phtml)
Thamnophis melanogaster (Peters, 1864)
Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_mendax.phtml)
Thamnophis mendax Walker, 1955
Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_nigronuchalis.phtml)
Thamnophis nigronuchalis Thompson, 1957
Northwestern Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_ordinoides.phtml)
Thamnophis ordinoides (Baird and Girard, 1852)
Tepalcatepec Valley Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_postremus.phtml)
Thamnophis postremus H. M. Smith, 1942
Western Ribbon Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_proximus.phtml)
Thamnophis proximus (Say, 1823)
Yellow-throated Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_pulchrilatus.phtml)
Thamnophis pulchrilatus (Cope, 1885)
Plains Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_radix.phtml)
Thamnophis radix (Baird and Girard, 1853)
Rossman’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/rossmani.php)
Thamnophis rossmani Conant, 2000
Narrow-headed Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_rufipunctatus.phtml)
Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Cope, 1875)
Eastern Ribbon Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_sauritus.phtml)
Thamnophis sauritus (Linnaeus, 1766)
Mexican Alpine Blotched Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_scalaris.phtml)
Thamnophis scalaris Cope, 1861
Mesa Central Blotched Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_scaliger.phtml)
Thamnophis scaliger (Jan, 1863)
Common Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_sirtalis.phtml)
Thamnophis sirtalis (Linnaeus, 1758)
Sumichrast’s Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_sumichrasti.phtml)
Thamnophis sumichrasti (Cope, 1866)
Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_validus.phtml)
Thamnophis validus (Kennicott, 1860)

[Steveo]

I believe someone posted something the other day about name changes, but I haven't paid much attention to it. People are going to use the names they've always used and I'm no longer in academia so I'm not concerned about it :p

[EasternGirl]

That looks correct at a quick glance...not including the subspecies. Most of us on the forum use the book...The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology, By Rossman, Ford, and Seigel...for taxonomy reference. I think the name change thing you are talking about was a hoax started by someone on the internet.

[EasternGirl]

I just looked and according to the Evolution and Ecology book...there are 30 species...so I'm not sure which on the list you have above would no longer be considered a species. Another member may be able to comment on that.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's what I have at this time.
iczn.org (International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature)
is down right now so I can get the most current.

1. Thamnophis angustirostris (Longnose Garter Snake)

2. Thamnophis atratus (Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake)
T. a. atratus (Santa Cruz garter snake)
T. a. hydrophilus (Oregon garter snake)
T. a. zaxanthus (Diablo Range garter snake)

3. Thamnophis bogerti (Bogert's Garter Snake)

4. Thamnophis brachystoma (Short-Headed Garter Snake)

5. Thamnophis butleri (Butler's Garter Snake)

6. Thamnophis chrysocephalus (Golden-Headed Garter Snake)

7. Thamnophis conanti (Conant's Garter Snake)

8. Thamnophis couchii (Sierra Garter Snake)

9. Thamnophis cyrtopsis (Black-Necked Garter Snake)
T. c. collaris (Tropical blackneck garter snake)
T. c. cyrtopsis (Western blackneck garter snake)
T. c. ocellatus (Eastern blackneck garter snake)

10. Thamnophis elegans (Western Terrestial Garter Snake)
T. e. elegans (Mountain garter snake)
T. e. terrestris (Coast garter snake)
T. e. vagrans (Wandering garter snake)

11. Thamnophis eques (Mexican Garter Snake)
T. e. eques (Mexican garter snake)
T. e, carmenensis
T. e. cuitzeoensis
T. e. diluvialis
T. e. insperatus
T. e. obscurus
T. e. patzcuaroensis
T. e. scotti
T. e. megalops (Northern Mexican garter snake)
T. e. virgatenuis

12. Thamnophis errans (Mexican Wandering Garter Snake)

13. Thamnophis exsul (Exiled Garter Snake)

14. Thamnophis fulvus (Mesoamerican Highlands Garter Snake)

15. Thamnophis gigas (Giant Garter Snake)

16. Thamnophis godmani (Godman's Garter Snake)

17. Thamnophis hammondii (Two-Striped Garter Snake)

18. Thamnophis lineri (Liner's Garter Snake)

19. Thamnophis marcianus (Checkered Garter Snake)
T. m. bovallii
T. m. marcianus
T. m. praeocularis

20. Thamnophis melanogaster (Mexican Black-Bellied Garter Snake)
T. m. canescens (Gray blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. chihuahuaensis (Chihuahuan blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. linearis (Lined blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. melanogaster (Mexican blackbelly garter snake)

21. Thamnophis mendax (Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake)

22. Thamnophis nigronuchalis (Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake)

23. Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake)

24. Thamnophis postremus (Tepalcatepec Valley Garter Snake)

25. Thamnophis proximus (Western Ribbon Snake)
T. p. alpinus (Chiapas Highland ribbon snake)
T. p. diabolicus (Aridland ribbon snake)
T. p. orarius (Gulf coast ribbon snake)
T. p. proximus (Western ribbon snake)
T. p. rubrilineatus (Redstripe ribbon snake)
T. p. rutiloris (Mexican ribbon snake)

26. Thamnophis pulchrilatus (Yellow-Throated Garter Snake)

27. Thamnophis radix (Great Plains Garter Snake, Plains Garter Snake)

28. Thamnophis rossmani (Rossman's Garter Snake)

29. Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Narrow-Headed Garter Snake)

30. Thamnophis sauritus (Eastern Ribbon Snake)
T. s. nitae (Bluestripe ribbon snake)
T. s. sackenii (Peninsula ribbon snake)
T. s. sauritus (Eastern ribbon snake)
T. s. septentrionalis (Northern ribbon snake)

31. Thamnophis scalaris (Mexican Alpine Blotched Garter Snake, Longtail Alpine Garter Snake)

32. Thamnophis scaliger (Mesa Central Blotched Garter Snake, Short-tail Alpine Garter Snake)

33. Thamnophis sirtalis (Common Garter Snake)
T. s. annectens (Texas garter snake)
T. s. concinnus (Red-spotted garter snake)
T. s. dorsalis (New Mexico garter snake)
T. s. fitchi (Valley garter snake)
T. s. infernalis (California red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pallidulus (Maritime garter snake)
T. s. parietalis (Red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pickeringii (Puget Sound garter snake)
T. s. semifasciatus (Chicago garter snake)
T. s. similis (Blue-striped garter snake)
T. s. sirtalis (Eastern garter snake)
T. s. tetrataenia (San Francisco garter snake)

34. Thamnophis sumichrasti (Sumichrast's Garter Snake)

35. Thamnophis validus (Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake)
T. v. celaeno
T. v. isabelleae
T. v. thamnophisoides
T. v. validus

[guidofatherof5]

I believe someone posted something the other day about name changes, but I haven't paid much attention to it. People are going to use the names they've always used and I'm no longer in academia so I'm not concerned about it :p

The post you are referring to was a rant from an upset new member.

[Didymus20X6]

Yeah. That list had a bunch of made-up names in it. This list actually has what appear to be genuine snake names.

[Pitchfire]

Several of the sites I have seen have referrenced "Evolution and Ecology" as already outdated in that respect. One change was moving the 'Mexican Wandering" out of S. Elegans and into S. Eques. Not sure if "Evolution and Ecology" has that change. I'll try to find the sites that mentioned it as outdated. Here's one:
The Thirty-First Garter Snake - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/the_thirtyfirst.php)

Taxonomy waits for no one. A decade after the publication of the definitive reference on garter snakes — The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0806128208/gartersnake-20) by Rossman, Ford and Seigel, which listed 30 species of garter snake — there have been a few changes to the taxonomy set out in that book.

Those changes that have taken place among the species north of the U.S.-Mexico border are relatively easy to follow; they’re well documented online. Thanks to the Center for North American Herpetology (http://www.cnah.org/)’s web site, we know that Boundy and Rossman’s proposal to synonymize the San Francisco Garter Snake (Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) with T. s. infernalis and rearrange the west coast subspecies of the Common Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_sirtalis.phtml) has been rejected, and that the validity of both the Blue-striped Garter Snake (http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=393) (T. s. similis) and the Blue-striped Ribbon Snake (http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=388) (T. sauritus nitae) — both originally described by Rossman — has been challenged, as have most of the subspecies (http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=368) of the Western Terrestrial Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_elegans.phtml) (Thamnophis elegans).1 (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/001661_the_thirtyfirst_gar.phtml#note1) On the other hand, a new subspecies of the Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake (http://www.gartersnake.info/species/T_atratus.phtml) (Thamnophis atratus), the Diablo Garter Snake (http://www.cnah.org/comments.asp?id=1219) (T. a. zaxanthus), was described in 1999......

[Pitchfire]

And then CNAH lists quite a few relevant articles on their pdf search.

And another:
GARTER - Snake Identification (http://www.spiritone.com/~brucem/garter.htm)

My uncle was looking for a record of a species he located in Mexico and could not find. He contacted Scott Felzer and he didn't know, so I forwarded him to the "thirsty" article and others. It would be nice to have one authoritative complete constantly updated list to refer to thus my post here and search. Thanks for the interest!

[guidofatherof5]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't all taxonomy changes have to go through the ICZN board.
International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Commission_on_Zoological_Nomenclatur e)

[Pitchfire]

I sincerely don't know. I failed Biology at the Uni! :eek: for what it's worth I did pretty good in animal behavior... It's mostly new to me trying to actually learn it this go around.

[chris-uk]

The post you are referring to was a rant from an upset new member.

The same guy posted on RFUK, seems he has a bit of history as being a little egotistic, "publishing" findings his own online journal (aka his personal website) and trying to claim that his findings mean that he can rename not just species, but genus, with his crazy, made up names. I thought his post was a late April Fools joke when I read it.


Correct me if I'm wrong but don't all taxonomy changes have to go through the ICZN board.
International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Commission_on_Zoological_Nomenclatur e)

I believe that the ICZN list should be considered the definitive list. Changes are peer-reviewed before being accepted.

[guidofatherof5]

I sincerely don't know. I failed Biology at the Uni! :eek: for what it's worth I did pretty good in animal behavior... It's mostly new to me trying to actually learn it this go around.

Hold the phone, stop the presses. UNI (University of Northern Iowa?) Might you be a resident of Iowa?

[katach]

He lives in alaska. I think he he just shortened university. :)

[guidofatherof5]

He lives in alaska. I think he he just shortened university. :)

Thanks. You are probably right.;)

[Pitchfire]

Yeah, I was going with the European shorthand version. I spent 16 years moving around Air Force bases as a kid though so to quote James Michener "the world is my home." All I know of Iowa is rolling hills, corn, and "the Music Man."

[guidofatherof5]

Yeah, I was going with the European shorthand version. I spent 16 years moving around Air Force bases as a kid though so to quote James Michener "the world is my home." All I know of Iowa is rolling hills, corn, and "the Music Man."


and the T.radix Ranch now.:D

[Pitchfire]

For what it's worth I'm a father of five children too. 1 girl, 4 boys.

[guidofatherof5]

For what it's worth I'm a father of five children too. 1 girl, 4 boys.

That is awesome.
So you're the one that got all the boys;):D
I have 4 girls and 1 boy.

[kibakiba]

Girls are better. :D

[Pitchfire]

Having brothers makes girls better. Of course the reverse is also true. Glad our girl was first!

[Dan72]

There are many forum members but only so many are active at any given time. Does anyone know from past members or currently, is anybody trying to have a sample of every garter? Does anybody have at least one of every type? I've seen some insane reptile rooms on you tube. So I know how out of control a reptile collection can get. Doesn't seem to far fetched for people to have 30 some garters and cover the species.

[katach]

If I had a huge house and lots if money I would do that! I have 3 species right now, and soon to be 5. I think the only place where you would be able to have every species would be UK. The San Frans are federally protected here in the US and there are many places in Canada where it's illegal to have native species in captivity.

[kibakiba]

I would too, if I could. I'm happy with my northwesterns right now, though. :)

[chris-uk]

I'm not sure that every garter species is held in captivity full-stop, let alone in the same collection. I'm pretty sure that if as a from we used the current species list as a checklist we would still have some gaps between us.

Marnie is also correct about completing a full collection, ironically you'd need to be in Europe to do it because of the federal protection of tetrataenia.

[EasternGirl]

I think that was Kat that said that actually.:) It would definitely be awesome to be able to say that I had a full collection of every species and subspecies of garter though. Thanks for putting that in my head guys! Now I will be on some new mission....

No! No! No more garters right now...bad Marnie! I need to get to a meeting....lol.

If you see on the news that some crazy lady was running through a park in San Fran with a snake in her hand and a bunch of cops chasing after her...it wasn't me! :D

[Pitchfire]

Maybe you could just pick one up and then for that moment you'd have the full list. Or possibly rehab an injured one as there are exceptions for that.

[EasternGirl]

Really? I didn't know that. I guess I would have to stumble upon an injured San Fran garter though. I certainly wouldn't mind rehabilitating an injured snake. I would definitely want to help in any way I could in a situation with an injured garter.

[guidofatherof5]

Maybe you could just pick one up and then for that moment you'd have the full list. Or possibly rehab an injured one as there are exceptions for that.

To disturb them is violating Federal law. Plus I don't think I would want the evidence used to convict to come from me:D
I've been told that the only place they can be rehabilitated is the S.F. Zoo.

[chris-uk]

To disturb them is violating Federal law. Plus I don't think I would want the evidence used to convict to come from me:D
I've been told that the only place they can be rehabilitated is the S.F. Zoo.

That was my understanding when I read up around the crazy laws that may well end up being a nail in San Frans' coffin. That there is no process to obtain permission to captive breed them makes the species so much more vulnerable. Limited breeding with microchipped snakes and licensed breeders would make sense to me.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep in mind Chris you're talking about the United States government.
They will wait until the snake is gone and then say they are beginning a study to if they can help.