Snake rack drawer?

[Invisible Snake]

Hi I was wondering if anyone here keeps there garters in a snake rack drawer?

If so, what are the pros and cons of keeping them in there as opposed to keeping them in a terrarium?

[Steveo]

I recently purchased a used rack system from a python breeder. I paid $80/each for three 5-shelf units with tubs and heat tape.


Advantages:
better density (more snakes in less space)
heating multiple tubs with one thermostat, one strip of heat tape
easy access - no fiddling with lids, standing on chairs, etc
easy to move snakes around to quarantine and such
more housing per dollar - a 20gal. glass tank with locking screen lid retails for $70 or $80. My 5-tub rack can house 5 big females or up to 15 juveniles for the same price. (but again, I got it used on the cheap)

Disadvantages:
poor lighting
not escape proof (just don't put babies in them and you'll be fine)
ventilation is not as good as a screen-top (though I like it because it helps keep the humidity up)
a curious cat/dog/child might try to pull a tub out, thus giving the snake a way to escape
can't really see your snakes without pulling a tub out (though my wandering does seem to look at me through the side)

edit: forgot the best part - rather than removing the snake(s) and cleaning a tub, I can just prepare a new tub, move the snake, then clean the old tub whenever I get to it.

[Invisible Snake]

Thanks Steveo I appreciate you taking the time to answer my concerns :)

[chris-uk]

Steveo's reply sums up the advantages and disadvantages well.
For me, the disadvantages of racks and RUBs outweigh the benefits. I'm not looking to fit a lot of snakes into a small footprint though, which is the reason most people use racks. I want to be able see every snake I own exploring their surroundings, which simply isn't possible in a rack system.

[ConcinusMan]

Racks are for snakes that are sedentary (sit and wait predators) in nature IMO. Garters are active, intelligent, and inquisitive by nature and that's what I love about them. Stuffing them in a drawer out of sight kind of defeats my reason for keeping them.:cool:


I want to be able see every snake I own exploring their surroundings, which simply isn't possible in a rack system.

Exactly. I keep garters because I admire them. If I can't admire them without disturbing them, there's no point in having them.

If ever a day comes when I am compelled to keep them in racks for practical/commercial/space purposes, or they become a chore rather than a pleasure, that is the day that I have too many. For me, that means about 25 snakes permenently plus 25-50 offsping seasonally/temporarily.

I prefer to keep only as many as I can pay enough attention to on a daily basis in order to watch for shedding and behavioral changes. The more you have, the less attenton and appreciation each one gets.

[gregmonsta]

I would never keep any snake in a rack set up. For the reasons already stated as well as being of the opinion that there are only plus points for the keepers. It sickens me to see snakes stuck in drawers that fall short of the minimum viv requirements. Boas and pythons with no opportunity to climb, etc.
I have used tubs for quaranteen, etc at least match minimum viv requirements. I'm very happy to say that, as of Friday, I will have all of my snakes suitably accomodated in large vivariums.

[BUSHSNAKE]

considering all the different snake species i think there are some species that are very suitable for a rack system setup and if people choose to use this allready successfull method then thats their choice

[gregmonsta]

if people choose to use this allready successfull method then thats their choice

It is their choice ... and it's the wrong one :p ... a snake that is 'suitable' for a rack system is just as suitable for a spacious viv with plentiful hides, etc. Let's not forget that rack systems were developed by and for large scale breeders to fit the maximum amout of breeders into a small space. Although not quite as severe - it is comparable to 'battery' kept livestock.
Private hobbyists then moved on to justify using these set-ups for themselves despite ultimately being driven by the same base greed. Lets face it, most of us would fill every corner of the house with snakes if possible.
You don't have to go back that far ... even in the 90's large scale boa breeders were giving premium space to their animals in very large facilities. Compared to the rack-trend of today you're talking about serious 'real-estate'. The snakes bred at the same rate then ... there is just more demand now. I can understand some corners being cut, but I can't condone keeping snakes in drawers at all, nevermind simply at hobby level.

[Steveo]

To each their own. My snakes get more surface area in a rack than they would in a glass tank. My racks were built for pythons but now house smaller snakes.

To think that a snake "likes" to climb or interact with people is to anthropomorphize. Most of the interactions are because of the human-food and human-warmth connections. Snakes are disturbed less in a rack system because they can't see all that is going on around them. I get to spend more "hands on" time with my snakes because I don't have to fiddle with lids or stand on a chair to get into the tanks like I used to. I only have to disturb them for 15 seconds when cleaning - I just move them to a freshly prepared tub and then clean the dirty one.

I fail to see the connection between owning a rack system and "greed". I'm not a breeder. I don't have dozens of snakes; I have 4. I live in an apartment, so my space is limited. I don't have anywhere to put a display tank. Each tub is set up just as my tanks used to be and I have better control over the heat and humidity.

[Invisible Snake]

I agree with Steveo 100%. Thank you Steveo for posting that! (I started feeling bad because I use a snake rack). I myself live in an apartment and have limited space and therefore don't have the luxury of putting up display vivs.

[kibakiba]

From what I can tell, my snakes do seem to "enjoy" climbing up and heing held. My snakes curl up with me when I'm sad, in a way that they don't, and wouldn't do when I'm happy. I've had snakes for 4 years. I've noticed a lot of stuff, because my snakes are what helps me pull through my severe depression. They have been with me through crazy mood swings, extreme stress and periods of time where we had absolutely no money. It's just what I've noticed.


I also don't have much space in my living space, but I've managed to fit 3 tanks in it. My living space is probably smaller than yours. I just have my office and nothing else.

[guidofatherof5]

More power to you Chantel.
I find my garters to be very therapeutic also.

[chris-uk]

To each their own. My snakes get more surface area in a rack than they would in a glass tank. My racks were built for pythons but now house smaller snakes.

Very true. Hence I don't think how you keep your four snakes in a rack is wrong, it's different to how I keep mine. The RUB (or rack) versus viv argument certainly pre-dates me buying my first snake, and it will crop up from time to time.
Out of interest, what size tubs does your rack use? When I think of racking systems I picture rows of tubs around 40x20cm.

[/quote]To think that a snake "likes" to climb or interact with people is to anthropomorphize.[/quote]

What word other than "like" would you use to describe what a snake instinctively wants to do? I know some people anthropomorthise their animals, but this isn't an example. If you accept that an animal can be stressed, you accept that some surrounding will be less stressful, and it's not a great leap to say that the animal will "like" to be in surrounding that aren't stressful. Some garters like to climb, they do it habitually, and they feel more secure when they are curled up at the top of a plant - my blacknecks are climbers, they prefer sleeping at the top of plants or on their platform. In any of my vivs I consider the vertical space to be nearly as important as floor area, and do my best to maximise both.


Most of the interactions are because of the human-food and human-warmth connections.

Agreed. But the snakes will learn which humans they trust not to harm them. Almost all of my garters are happy with myself and my wife, but on occasions when friends want to hold one, they will invariably look to come straight back to our hands after we put them in the hands of a stranger. I think that's because they've learned that the 'animal' that smells like me is safe, but the 'animal' that smells different might not be.


Snakes are disturbed less in a rack system because they can't see all that is going on around them. I get to spend more "hands on" time with my snakes because I don't have to fiddle with lids or stand on a chair to get into the tanks like I used to. I only have to disturb them for 15 seconds when cleaning - I just move them to a freshly prepared tub and then clean the dirty one.

But garters are curious and like to see what is going on. Not all of mine do it, but I have several who will come out when they sense movement in the room, and they definitely watch me through the glass because I can see the head movement track me moving. I don't buy into "they're disturbed less" as a benefit to housing them in tubs which restrict what they can see.


I fail to see the connection between owning a rack system and "greed". I'm not a breeder. I don't have dozens of snakes; I have 4. I live in an apartment, so my space is limited. I don't have anywhere to put a display tank. Each tub is set up just as my tanks used to be and I have better control over the heat and humidity.
Most people who use racks have more than 4 snakes, I think Greg was generalising that racks tend to be used to maximise the number of snakes per square metre.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I agree with Steveo 100%. Thank you Steveo for posting that! (I started feeling bad because I use a snake rack). I myself live in an apartment and have limited space and therefore don't have the luxury of putting up display vivs.
i 100% agree too

[BUSHSNAKE]

More power to you Chantel.
I find my garters to be very therapeutic also.
thats what all pets are for

[Steveo]

Out of interest, what size tubs does your rack use? When I think of racking systems I picture rows of tubs around 40x20cm.

My tubs are 58.5cm x 41.25cm. Slightly bigger than a 20 gallon long aquarium.

[chris-uk]

My tubs are 58.5cm x 41.25cm. Slightly bigger than a 20 gallon long aquarium.
Not a pokey little rack then, they're marginally smaller than the 60x45cm floor area of most of my vivs.

[gregmonsta]

Chris summed things up nicely. My post was generally aimed at the trend to restrict space for larger species, although it can apply to garters.
I do feel that despite providing adequate floorspace, the height restriction is still a negative, as is the occlusion of the tubs, etc.
I don't feel my 50L tub I currently use for an adult female is sufficient for her needs. The chances to increase 'floorspace' by adding climbing opportunities, etc, is lost in this kind of set up. It is also still top-opening and therefore panic inducing.
I do use tubs but they are never more than a temporary measure.

"Snakes are disturbed less in a rack system because they can't see all that is going on around them. I get to spend more "hands on" time with my snakes because I don't have to fiddle with lids or stand on a chair to get into the tanks like I used to. I only have to disturb them for 15 seconds when cleaning - I just move them to a freshly prepared tub and then clean the dirty one."

This statement of being 'less disturbed' has always been a false one for me. I imagine the tub suddenly being slid out and then being interfered with to be more stress inducing than having a snake that trusts you and knows what is coming. The element here is more about whether you accustom your snakes to handling and treat them as pets or if you are simply a collector. If your snake is not regularily handled the stress of being removed from any set-up will be the same regardless.

"I agree with Steveo 100%. Thank you Steveo for posting that! (I started feeling bad because I use a snake rack). I myself live in an apartment and have limited space and therefore don't have the luxury of putting up display vivs."

I live in an appartment, with limited space and I've sacrificed furniture, etc to make sure I can have all of my vivs as big as possible. You may say that is also a selfish choice, as I prefer to see my snakes, but my choices have always been about giving them large environments complete with multiple enrichment opportunities.

[EasternGirl]

I am certainly not going to condemn anyone for using a rack system...but to say that it is anthropomorphizing snakes because many of us believe that they like to climb and be held and to interact with people is ignoring fact. I don't think we are a bunch of crazy people that are imagining a bond with our snakes...and I don't think that we are incapable of observing behavior that is real...if many people observe the same thing in snakes over many years of observations, than something must be true in our observations. If the snakes do not enjoy climbing...then why are they doing it? They aren't being forced to climb. I think it is just as ridiculous to automatically assume that a snake can't possibly enjoy something. If a snake doesn't enjoy interacting or being handled...then why do certain snakes respond the way they do when being held? Why does my female calm down when I hold her and stroke the back of her head? I also have degrees in science...but I am capable of seeing what is right in front of me...and not dismissing it because it might not be appreciated from a scientific perspective.

[d_virginiana]

I agree with everything that Gregmonsta and Marnie just said. I think the lack of height as well as the lack of visual stimulation in a rack system are detrimental to most snake species.

I don't think that snake tubs/racks are neglectful or abusive, but I don't think they are what is best for the snakes either. In about a month I'm going to be living in an apartment with very limited space as well, and a lot of that limited space is going to my snake's vivs (along with my pacman frog, my fish tank, and my millipede). Personally, space determines how many animals I have, not how I keep them.

Thinking that snakes 'enjoy' things is not anthropomorphizing them, it is a fact. All emotions have a neurological basis. There are evolutionary reasons for all of our emotions; even though they can sometimes be maladaptive, they have a purpose in our survival. Just because any animals' emotions are not as complex as humans' does not mean they don't exist.
I would go so far as to say that it is anthropomorphizing to expect an animal that can't hear and has questionable vision, as well as the inability to make most facial expressions or noise, to communicate anything in a way a human would naturally understand, given that we perceive the world through vision and sound, and communicate through words and facial expressions.
Neuroscience is one of my minors, and behavior based on sensory perception of the individual (or organism) is a pet topic of mine, so I can't resist talking about it whenever I get the chance :)

[Invisible Snake]

In a perfect world we would keep our herps in prefect habitats, unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.

[BUSHSNAKE]

the perfect habitat is were you find them

[chris-uk]

the perfect habitat is were you find them
Good point, but too concise Joe.

The perfect habitat is where you find them in the wild.

[gregmonsta]

I find mine in captivity :p so that's where they stay.

[d_virginiana]

I found mine under a dog-food display :D

... And then got him for free so no one would tell the store manager that his employee had let the merchandise run off.

[Selkielass]

Good point, but too concise Joe.

The perfect habitat is where you find them in the wild.
Except where it is polluted, mowed and sprayed with herbicides regularly, and overrun with feral cats.
I try to give my pets more of the good points of the wild habitàt and can only hope excluding the bad somewhat makes up for stressors I can't eliminate.