My first garter

[Steveo]

I find a lot of snakes as a Department of Wildlife volunteer here in CO, but I've always released them unharmed. Until now.

I found this one this past weekend. I have a few other colubrids, but I've never actually owned a garter. I grew up in a big city and we'd find the occasional rat snake in the woods and sometimes copperheads near water, but rarely anything else.

I'm pretty sure it's a big female but the more I look, the less certain I am. I guess that's how it always is, eh? The long tail is throwing me off. I think she's just too big to be a male, at any rate.

She's not thrilled at being handled. She squirms but doesn't panic. She'll assume a defensive posture and look mean, but she'll let me reach in and pick her up if I move slowly.
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[katach]

Welcome to the forum family! Looks like you have a female. Where was she found (state/county) we can help ID the exact species of garter for you. Judging by the eyes she looks about to shed as well, make sure you have her humidity proper so she gets her shed off easily. She'll need something to rub against too.

[guidofatherof5]

Female all the way.
I'm guessing Western Terrestrial Garter Snake -Thamnophis e. vagrans

[ssssnakeluvr]

that's a wandering garter, t elegans vargrans... big female. she is getting ready to shed so she might be a little grumpy since she can't see very well.

[Steveo]

Found in Arapahoe County, CO. Pretty healthy population of wandering garters there. I was hoping she'd be gravid, but she's not that thick in the back. We're 4-5 weeks since the end of brumation, so she might just not be showing yet.

I hadn't noticed the opaque eyes until seeing the pictures with flash. She has a big aluminum water dish to soak in and rub against (the soaking was great because she smelled just awful when I brought her home).

[katach]

Yes, the garter musk can be very smelly!! Maybe you could put a rock or something with a rougher surface in with her for the shed. I think the water dish might be too smooth. Your call though.

[ConcinusMan]

that's a wandering garter, t elegans vargrans... big female.

I agree. Probably gravid too.

http://oi48.tinypic.com/2vb0prk.jpg

[mikem]

Nice! I like the last photo with the tongue out :p

[Steveo]

Thanks everyone. I'm hoping I can find the other CO garter species this year. I'm on the southeast edge of Denver proper, which puts me at the eastern edge of the T. elegans range, the western edge of the T. radix range, and the southwestern edge of the T. sirtalis range. I saw a dead yearling sirtalis last fall that had been run over on a bike path, but I have yet to find a living example.

[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck on your quest;)

[ConcinusMan]

I totally screwed up that caption :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks everyone. I'm hoping I can find the other CO garter species this year. I'm on the southeast edge of Denver proper, which puts me at the eastern edge of the T. elegans range, the western edge of the T. radix range, and the southwestern edge of the T. sirtalis range. I saw a dead yearling sirtalis last fall that had been run over on a bike path, but I have yet to find a living example.

Find me some of those Denver area milk snakes and you got yourself a trade (pugets, concinnus')

[Steveo]

Find me some of those Denver area milk snakes and you got yourself a trade (pugets, concinnus')

I'd like to find some too. It looks like I'd have to venture west to the foothills, but that's only an hour's drive. I'd just have to figure out where I can herp, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

Volunteer observations of milk snakes in CO: Milk Snake (http://ndis.nrel.colostate.edu/herpatlas/coHerpAtlasD/viewer.htm?SPECIESID=184&SPNAME=MILK SNAKE)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, they're found in the grassy slopes of the foothills, just outside the city but only before things get too hot and dry.

[Steveo]

I don't work Friday so maybe I'll hit up a few parks over there. I could scout some new fishing spots at the same time.

[Steveo]

Her eyes have definitely become more cloudy the last couple days. She's also less active. I'm hoping for a complete shed so I can get an accurate measurement.

I have 4 snakes in my spare bedroom now so I think it's time to invest in some odor-absorbing substrate. I don't get enough junk mail to keep up with changing the paper :P

[guidofatherof5]

Not an accurate way to measure. The shed will usually be longer then the snake due to the fact it is stretched out with all the scales and skin between those scales.

[Didymus20X6]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/welcome-lounge/4500d1332817250-just-saying-hi-t9i0px.jpg%20

[EasternGirl]

Lovely girl you have there! Fiesty! I love it...love that flattened head and nasty look in her eye. Great pic! She certainly could be gravid given the time of year. As Steve said, I wouldn't measure the shed...better to measure the snake. Carefresh absorbs odor nicely. Reptibark does to a certain extent. Aspen doesn't do diddly for absorbing odor...in my opinion.

[Steveo]

Aspen doesn't do diddly for absorbing odor...in my opinion.

When I got my first snake last year I bought a bag of aspen bedding. It did, at least, hold the waste together to make it easier to clean. It didn't do much for the smell, though, and it was dusty. I will still occasionally find aspen dust on my kingsnake's head even though I stopped using it months ago and have scrubbed with soap and water a few times since.

I looked into Carefresh the other day. Someone here posted a link to a site that has it on sale, but I want to see if I can pick up a small bag locally to try it out first. If it works out I'll probably buy 100lbs. :D

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Whew, she looks like she means business!!! It's so cute to me when they do that "I'm gonna get ya" pose :) One of my 3 girls is a wandering and I adore her. She is also my only wild caught. She eats great and has the best little personality. I bet your girl will mellow out nicely once she realizes you aren't going to eat her!!!

[Steveo]

Looking back over the pictures, I do see some scale spread. Assuming she's gravid, how often should I feed her? I brought her home Sunday and she took an adult mouse. I'm thinking she'd be ready for another one tonight?

[guidofatherof5]

This is just me but after losing a garter to fur blockage, I don't feed adult mice to my garters.
Pinkies yes but not adult mice.

[EasternGirl]

I love carefresh...and my snakes enjoy burrowing in it. The only reason I don't use it all the time is because it gets pricey...and because I can't use it for my female eastern with respiratory problems...for some reason it really bothers her..makes her breathing worse. For that reason, I switch around...using aspen, reptibark, and carefresh.

[ConcinusMan]

This is just me but after losing a garter to fur blockage, I don't feed adult mice to my garters.
Pinkies yes but not adult mice.

Same here. I think Stefan and I debated this. In my experience, hair plugs them up. I either skin adult mice while frozen, or simply use rat or mouse pinkies instead. Also, I don't continuously feed them rodents. I alternate with fish and worms.

Even if hair doesn't cause blockage by itself, it certainly increases the chances of it happening.

[ConcinusMan]

Not an accurate way to measure. The shed will usually be longer then the snake due to the fact it is stretched out with all the scales and skin between those scales.

agreed. Try this instead. Used properly, it's very accurate. Do it twice, with different photos and control objects to be sure: Serpwidgets - Snake Measurer (http://www.serpwidgets.com/main/measure)

[EasternGirl]

That's pretty cool...I'm going to have to try that.

[Steveo]

Same here. I think Stefan and I debated this. In my experience, hair plugs them up. I either skin adult mice while frozen, or simply use rat or mouse pinkies instead. Also, I don't continuously feed them rodents. I alternate with fish and worms.

Even if hair doesn't cause blockage by itself, it certainly increases the chances of it happening.

Good to know. I have some rat pups without fur yet. I'll use those and save the adult mice for my constrictors.

[Steveo]

agreed. Try this instead. Used properly, it's very accurate. Do it twice, with different photos and control objects to be sure: Serpwidgets - Snake Measurer (http://www.serpwidgets.com/main/measure)

Ah! that reminds me of a similar program we used in school called ImageJ. I'll just do it that way.

[Steveo]

This big girl shed today and she looks much better. I went herping today and found a western yellow-bellied racer and another gopher snake. Both will be released tomorrow after logging them in the CO herp atlas. Also saw a dead T. radix - it looked like a bird had gotten to it.
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[kibakiba]

She's very beautiful!

[Steveo]

Just a quick update on this girl, she's adjusting well to captivity and eating like a horse. I'm not convinced she's gravid because she's thickest around mid-body, but I bought a scale and will weigh her periodically to be sure. Right now she's 126g.

[Steveo]

I weighed this girl again last night and she came in at 162g. I think she still had some food in her gut from Thursday's feeding but that's some pretty rapid weight gain, no?

[Steveo]

160g and she refused rat pups Tuesday and nightcrawlers today. I didn't think she was looking chunky in the back half, but the pictures say otherwise. 55235524

Please excuse the cardboard box, I just needed something with an open top that she couldn't get out of right away :)

[ProXimuS]

Sounds/looks like possible babies in the future:) How exciting!

[katach]

I would agree. She does look a little.....girthy in the lower portion. Good luck! She is a beauty for sure!

[Dan72]

Steve just curious, I thought you had mentioned in an earlier post that you had hoped she would be gravid. If the gal is what are your plans for the litter? She is a keeper for you correct, not a catch and release?

[Steveo]

If she is gravid I'll probably keep a few little ones and let mama and the rest go. She looks to be pretty old but if she's still young enough to reproduce then she'd be better off back where I found her. It was probably a mistake to keep her but she's my first garter and the only snake I've ever had that will come out of hiding and put her head in my hand.

On the other hand, I know vagrans are not widely kept. If someone wanted some or wanted to trade, I'd give them up to keep others from being collected. As I said earlier, she came from a place with a very healthy population so I would not have kept her if I didn't think it would be ok.

[Dan72]

Sure, completly understand. I have what I hope is a gravid radix female from my yard. Found an albino radix in late March and even though its better chances of winning powerball I'm hoping I have the mother of the albino and she does it again. If that ends up being the case then it opens pandoras box on keeping her. But if this beuatiful girl has a healthy litter of radix but no albino and nothing to prove that she is het for it then they're all going back to the yard. I kind of feel bad about spoiling her for months and then tossing her back to deal with nature, but with so many cool garters out there and coming from CB backgrounds I can't really justify keeping her. Time will tell. That is pretty nice thinking about sharing your litter with those that want however, even though the mothers are WC, I guess the litters could be seen as CB....:rolleyes:.

[Dan72]

Seeing as how you work with the snakes like you do, what do you consider a healthy population to be? The reason I ask is this if I ended up keeping this female after she gave birth to the litter. Guessing because I have no way of knowing, that she is 1 of ? healthy females of breeding age in my area of garters. If she was 1 of 40 does that disturb the natural order of things? Not as much I'm sure as if she were 1 of 6. So what would a healthy population be?

[Dan72]

Found this on Snakes Alive Snakes Alive (http://www.naturenorth.com/spring/creature/garter/snake1.htm). Even though they're discussing the red sided garters, I would think that the ratios would be about the same regardless of the species? What do you think?


REPRODUCTIVE CAPACITY

Recruitment for the red-sided garter snake is
extremely slow. They do not breed for at least 3 years and likely breed every
other year after that. First broods are seldom more than 1-5 young.
Approximately 80% of the young do not survive their first winter and 50% of each
year class dies annually thereafter. Adult females (over 80cm.) are vital to the
well-being of all populations. These females produce as many as 40 young each at
least every other year. A snake population cannot increase without a major
component of adult females.

[Steveo]

There's some complicated ecological calculus that I learned once upon a time, but filling in all of the variables is nearly impossible without destroying the study area in the process. Recruitment rate is one variable. Prey availability is another. Predation rate and survivorship are also needed.

What it really comes down to is knowing your study area. The place I most commonly find snakes - whether I'm looking for them or not - is a big state park just outside city limits with a 880 surface-acre reservoir, a handful of incoming creeks with large riparian areas bordered by short-grass prairie. The park has abundant amphibian food sources and tons of human traffic, which keeps some of the predators away.

I think the reproductive rate for the red-sided is a bit lower than my local populations of wandering because of the difference in climate. That doesn't mean survivorship can't be the same, though; wanderings tend to have fewer but larger offspring. I think more snakes make it through the winter here because they can find some abandoned prairie dog holes. They should also be breeding every year, but I can't confirm that they are. State laws help keep the numbers up because while you're allowed to take 4 wanderings per year (maximum 12 owned at any one time), you can't sell them (gifts/trades are OK, though, as long as you don't catch more than 4 per year).

It's well past midnight and I don't know if I'm making sense anymore. I'll revisit this Monday when I return from a camping trip.

[Steveo]

I forgot the obvious note that I've seen lots of them at the park. I find more wandering garters there than all of the other species combined. I have not found any other garter species there so I think the wanderings have that place locked down pretty tightly, so to speak.

Anywho, this girl (dubbed 'Nellie' after journalist/explorer Nellie Bly) did not eat again last night. I gave her enclosure a good scrubbing while she did laps around her food in another tub. I'm not yet concerned and I know that females may go off feed before giving birth, but she doesn't look that close to delivery when compared to the other pictures of gravid snakes I've seen here. Her weight is steady at 160g. I'll give her a week and see if she's interested in some nightcrawlers.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a good plan.

[ConcinusMan]

My WA wandering eats like a champ and isn't picky about what she eats, but I've noticed that they don't tame down fast like the sirtalis'. They remain quite nervous and distrusting. That's just my experience.

[Steveo]

My WA wandering eats like a champ and isn't picky about what she eats, but I've noticed that they don't tame down fast like the sirtalis'. They remain quite nervous and distrusting. That's just my experience.

Nelly was a bottomless pit when I first brought her home. I had an extra adult mouse the day I brought her home and she had it down in 5 minutes. She also didn't hesitate on rat pinks or nightcrawlers for the first few weeks. I didn't have a scale when I got her but she was probably ~100g. Maybe now that she's well-fed she's slowing down. She also hasn't shed since the week I got her so I'm assuming she was severely underweight, being able to add 60% of her bodyweight in a month without shedding. Maybe she's going into shed now. It takes longer in older snakes, right? My other snakes are all young.

My only worry is that going off feed may mean she's going to deliver soon, but she doesn't look that big and I've not made preparations yet. I suppose I should move her back to a glass tank with lid just in case she surprises me.

[Steveo]

164g. Got her to eat a rat pinky today but she turned down the nightcrawlers I offered afterward. I noticed a large difference in girth before and after her vent.

[EasternGirl]

I'd say there is a good chance she is gravid. My view on keeping WC snakes is I always just try to consider what is best for the snake, and the population in the wild, as mentioned, of course. If I think the snake would be better off in the wild...and can survive in the wild with no problems...I will leave the snake in the wild. If I think that the snake doesn't have a chance of surviving because of some circumstance...the snake is injured, or the place I find the snake is dangerous to his/her survival...I take the snake in. A perfect example is the WC easterns inhabiting my yard. There used to be quite an abundance of them living under and outside my house. Now...I can't seem to find any these days. My two eastern adults were rescued from my yard and basement. I used to release any that I found...but they were being attacked by shrews and getting run over by the lawn mower...the people that cut my grass do not take care in watching out for them. So now, although it concerns me that taking any I find in will continue to deplete the once abundant population...I have to take them in or they will surely meet an untimely death.

[Steveo]

She just started giving birth. She'd been restless all night so I pulled out her tub to check on her and there was a little blood spot and a tiny shed skin sticking to her. I found one little'un not in her tub but under it. It must have squeezed through an air hole in the side. I've moved her to a fresh tub with another tub on top, sealing her and any babies in for the night.

[thamneil]

Congratulations! Vagrans are quickly becoming one of my favourite subspecies. Hope she has a big healthy litter and everything goes smoothly! The excitment and anticipation is unbearable hey? Welcome to the club!

[Selkielass]

Ohhhh congratulations! Please keep us updated as you are able.

[Dan72]

Hope all goes well.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Very exciting!!! I can't wait to see what you end up with.

[Steveo]

Not much to report. She just had the one and lost 15g in the process. I'm going to give her a few more days, then I'll probably release her where I found her and keep the newborn.

[ProXimuS]

Glad to hear about the one healthy baby! You think thats all she's got?

[Steveo]

That might be all, yeah. I've had a feeling from the start that she's pretty old. She was also underweight for her length when I found her, so maybe one was all that she had resources for.

She shed shortly after I brought her home and didn't have a pre-birth shed. Must have been because she didn't get very big.

[Steveo]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh there's more. Within the last hour 7 more have appeared. I was just about to put her back in her normal enclosure too...

[Steveo]

Final(?) count: 4 living, 9 stillborn.

[EasternGirl]

Steveo....I might wait until releasing her for at least a week or so. Cee Cee took at least four days to have three live young and then two weeks to pass 37 more stillborns. She may surprise you and have a few more live and you should watch her to make sure she gets anymore stillborns passed without complications. If she can't pass them for some reason...she could go septic. Congrats on the new babies and sorry to hear about the stillborns.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about your loss.
I'd/we'd love to see the 4 survivors.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...definitely...pics as soon as you can please. :)

[Steveo]

Steveo....I might wait until releasing her for at least a week or so. Cee Cee took at least four days to have three live young and then two weeks to pass 37 more stillborns. She may surprise you and have a few more live and you should watch her to make sure she gets anymore stillborns passed without complications. If she can't pass them for some reason...she could go septic. Congrats on the new babies and sorry to hear about the stillborns.

I'm actually thinking about holding her until spring. The place where I found her... I went herping there for a short time yesterday, the creek is bone dry and I don't know where the snakes have gone. I remember the exact log I found her under and I'd like to return her to that exact spot, but there's nowhere to get a drink in the area right now.

Steve, I'll try to get some pictures later. I've cleaned up and sterilized everything so I can feed my CB snakes today, but once that's done I'll go back with the camera.

[EasternGirl]

Sounds like a good plan. Last summer, Cee Cee had stillborns and it took her three weeks to pass all of them. Luckily, both times that this happened with her...she was able to pass all of them with no problems. She was also extremely skinny after all was said and done. And it took her almost another month to start eating again after delivering. She is finally eating now and I am giving her extra food to try to help her put weight back on.

[Steveo]

Pictures, as promised:

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The fourth one is out of focus but I was trying to get the tongue flicking out from underneath the paper towel. Got it on my first try :P

[ProXimuS]

OOO They have really pretty markings already!:D

[katach]

Cute little ones! That lighter colored one is very pretty!

[Steveo]

The lighter one is still struggling to shed, I think. I'll admit that I helped one break through the membrane because I was upset about the number of stillborn, and that may be the one. I'll check tomorrow and offer assistance, if necessary.

[katach]

You should help him right away. It's important to get that shed off. A warm cloth should do the trick just let him slither through it and keep slight pressure on him until the shed is off.

[Steveo]

Alright, I helped it out. Got everything (i think) except the first two scales on the nose and possibly one eye cap. It was hard to tell if the nose skin was still there or if it was just a different color. I'll check again tomorrow. It's still a lighter shade of brown than the others, so I'll be neat to see if that changes.

[thamneil]

Shoot these are gorgeous! Why is it that im so in love with wanderings?! I'll be in South Dakota next week... you should meet up with me and sell me a pair :p Yeah right! Keep dreaming.

[Steveo]

Shoot these are gorgeous! Why is it that im so in love with wanderings?! I'll be in South Dakota next week... you should meet up with me and sell me a pair :p Yeah right! Keep dreaming.

They're not very showy (IMO) but there's just something about them... these babies are a lot less skittish than the ones I had shipped in this week. They act like they're not afraid. Maybe they just don't know better yet.

Neil, since Colorado is my state of residence it's illegal for me to sell a native species unless I can prove I bought them from out of state. :rolleyes: I haven't sexed these yet but maybe I'll keep them, breed them, and give some away to get them more exposure amongst garter people. At any rate, they're staying with me until spring since there's no water where I found the mama right now.

[Dan72]

Thanks for the pics, love to see babies. Hope everything is good with the mother when she is done.

[EasternGirl]

Cute little scrubs. I just love baby garters! Steve, don't know if I mentioned it to you before...but I have a nice pile of moist moss in the corner of my babies enclosure. They had some trouble with that first shed too...but have had perfect sheds since I put the moss in with them. Plus, they love to hide in it!

[thamneil]

Neil, since Colorado is my state of residence it's illegal for me to sell a native species unless I can prove I bought them from out of state. :rolleyes: I haven't sexed these yet but maybe I'll keep them, breed them, and give some away to get them more exposure amongst garter people. At any rate, they're staying with me until spring since there's no water where I found the mama right now.

You don't have to sell them! You could just gift them :p I'm just joking with you. Enjoy them and put up lots of pictures!

[Steveo]

The 4 little ones are doing well. They all ate for me Thursday/Friday morning.I put a little bit of fish in their container and they hovered around it for a while until one started eating about an hour after I put it in there. I was hoping the rest would follow suit so I left the fish in overnight (not recommended for sensitive noses), and all 4 had round bellies in the morning.

[ProXimuS]

Glad to hear they're eating well!

Maybe I'm crazy...But I swear I thought I remember you saying that one accidently got away from you...Was that you, and if so have you found him? And if not you, who was it?!!?:confused::p

[Steveo]

It was me, and no, there's still an 8" T. scotti somewhere around here. I've searched the apartment twice with no sign of it. I'm worried it found its way under the carpet, where I'll never find it.

[ProXimuS]

Oooooh! That's because it was one of the ones you ordered, not one of the wanderings...That's why I couldn't find the post! Well I still hope you can find it:)

[Steveo]

Nellie and her babies were fed and then released yesterday. Nellie was placed back under the log where I found her and I put the little ones in some high grass near the water.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice job.