What subspecies are my Snakes?

[SnakesInCoconuts]

I've had my Garters for a while now, but I've never been quite sure what subspecies they are. Any help identifying them would be appreciated! Here's some pictures:

3 Year old Cuddles:
5030

And 1 and a half Year old Anders:
5031

[katach]

Were these purchased or wild caught? I love that picture of Cuddles!

[mikem]

That pic of Cuddles is great, haha :D

[Invisible Snake]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

[kibakiba]

Cuddles looks like a redsided... Anders looks like of like an eastern. I cant be sure, though. If they are wild caughts, they are probably red sideds.

[ConcinusMan]

They both appear to be T. sirtalis sirtalis to me. Eastern garter snake.

Locality info would be helpful but first impression is eastern garters

[EasternGirl]

Cuddles looks like an eastern, T.s.sirtalis, and Anders looks like either eastern or red-sided, T.s.parietalis. Yes, if they were wild caught...knowing where they were found would help. We have another member with a Cuddles! Lovely snakes!

[SnakesInCoconuts]

Yes, they're Wild caught.

[SnakesInCoconuts]

Cuddles was caught in Western Ontario, in the area of Kenora and Anders a little while outside of Winnipeg in Steinbach, if that helps.

[SnakesInCoconuts]

They're both wild caught. Anders was caught in Steinbach Manitoba and Cuddles near Kenora Ontario. Hope that helps!

[Didymus20X6]

5032

[katach]

I think that pic would work well for this months photo contest theme. :)

[Didymus20X6]

Heck, yes!

Post the original pic in the Thamnophis May Photo Contest, please! And I'll post my caption in the Captions thread!

Here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/thamnophis-contests/10402-may-2012-photo-contest.html

[Light of Dae]

They're both wild caught. Anders was caught in Steinbach Manitoba and Cuddles near Kenora Ontario. Hope that helps!

HA I grew up in Steinbach! We had a whole family of Garters living under our trailer! Used to catch a bunch in the wooded area just beside the trailer park as well, Some by the creek beside Abe's Hill too!

I'd say Anders is an Eastern Garter and Cuddles is probably a Red-sided or even maybe a Plains garter (Radix)... There is not to many Radixes in mb though...

[chris-uk]

Given where these two were caught, I'd say that they are both most likely T. sirtarlis parietalis.

[EasternGirl]

I will then of course have to argue that one of them is an eastern...lol. Alrighty then peeps...what we need is a scale count. Snakesincoconuts...any chance you could get us some close up photos of the sides of the snakes' faces so that we can do a supralabial scale count? We need to do a count of the scales around the sides of the snakes mouth. Also some more close up pics of the entire body of Cuddles would help to determine the subspecies. Are there no T.s.sirtalis in that area you guys?

[ConcinusMan]

Alrighty then peeps...what we need is a scale count.

That won't help. All sirtalis subspecies have the same scale counts, and there are 13 subspecies I believe. Scale counts only help distinguish species, not subspecies.

[EasternGirl]

Right...I know...but someone mentioned radix. If it has a supralabial scale count of 8 as opposed to 7...then we know it isn't an eastern or a red-sided...that it is a radix. And if we get some more full body pics...we could look at the other scale rows and see if we could make some kind of determination of subspecies based on lateral scales.

[chris-uk]

Manitoba is almost entirely parietalis, Kenora is possibly in an area with intergradation between parietalis and T. sirtalis sirtalis... That makes things a bit more difficult for Cuddles. There are radix up there, but she looks more parietalis to me.

[EasternGirl]

Well...if we could get a supralabial scale count...we could definitely say radix if there are 8 supralabials. Unfortunately, if there are 7, from what I understand...radixes can have 7...and all T.sirtalis species have 7...so that doesn't help us in narrowing it down at all then. But, we could look at the face and head and get a better idea of subspecies just by the pattern and coloring on it. And perhaps some more full body pics will give us some additional views of Cuddles that would help us decide if he looks more like parietalis or sirtalis sirtalis.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Scale counts rarely help....origin is most important to know!!

[ConcinusMan]

Definitely

[EasternGirl]

Yeah but I thought we already knew origin and that there were parietalis, sirtalis sirtalis, and radix all in that area. Was I wrong about that?

[ConcinusMan]

Cuddles was caught in Western Ontario, in the area of Kenora and Anders a little while outside of Winnipeg in Steinbach, if that helps.

It does. Kenora rules out radix I think. Seems a little too far east and cuddles is definitely not a radix anyway. I haven't seen enough of Anders to tell. Can't even see the head/face.

[chris-uk]

I agree with Richard, Winnipeg area should rule out radix and it's also too far west for sirtarlis sirtarlis - which makes parietalis most likely for Anders (based on the range maps).
I think we may struggle with Cuddles, even with more detailed photos, because if I'm reading the maps correctly there's an area of intergradation near Kenora. I think Kenora itself falls into the sirtarlis sirtarlis range though, but you don't have to go too far west or south from Kenora to hit the intergradation zone or even move into parietalis territory. This is all assuming that the range maps (I'm looking at "Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology" which I believe is as good as we've got, but is obviously getting a few years out of date now) still hold true.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Yeah but I thought we already knew origin and that there were parietalis, sirtalis sirtalis, and radix all in that area. Was I wrong about that?
its either parietalis or sirtalis based on origin and the difference between radix and sirtalis is in the lateral stripes:)

[EasternGirl]

So we need to see a few more body shots of Cuddles then...

[BUSHSNAKE]

Cuddles? the one in the first pic? thats a sirtalis for sure...weather its sirtalis or parietalis is based on its origin,the 2 subspecies dont occur in the same areas

[EasternGirl]

I thought Cuddles was sirtalis sirtalis too. But other members said they thought parietalis...so I thought he was the one we were trying to figure out...I thought we were pretty sure that Anders was parietalis. Look back a couple of posts at what Chris wrote. Anders doesn't look like an eastern to me...he looks more like a parietalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Anders also has little white specks where a parietalis would usually have red. I'm thinking that Anders is a parietalis without red. That's not too uncommon.

"Northern garter" it is.:p

[BUSHSNAKE]

lol

[SnakesInCoconuts]

So we need to see a few more body shots of Cuddles then...
I'll post some full body and head shots of them both, then. Might as well.

[EasternGirl]

You know all this talk and it just sunk in that you live in Manitoba! I would probably give away most of my earthly belongings (minus my snakes) to live in Manitoba. You are so lucky. Do you visit the dens often? I will make it there someday....*drifts off into a daydream state*.....

[ConcinusMan]

Be careful what you wish for. Nice to visit in the spring for a week or two when they emerge, but live there? Have you ever actually researched the climate?

I'll bet that if the snakes had wheels or wings, they would head south too.:p

" frost-free season, consisting of between 120 and 140 days"

That's just 2-3 months to you and I. Screw that! I'll take my frost free season at 6-10 months, with a side order of less than 12 inches of rain annually, thank you.

Yikes: Climate of Manitoba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Manitoba)

[JosvdB]

I don't know much about American months but wouldn't that be 4-4.5 months?

Awesome photo btw :)

[ConcinusMan]

America is a big place with many climate types. Western WA is only pleasant from May or June to about Oct 1st. The rest of the time is very wet and/or snowing. Southern California (at low coastal elevations) is semiarid, semitropical so remains pretty warm and sunny year-round and usually doesnt see much rain. Southern Florida is tropical. The deep south is extreme. Very hot and humid summers, but is prone to blizzards and extreme cold in winter, which lasts about 4 months.

I live in So. California, in the mojave desert above Los Angeles, but it's high elevation. We do get some snow and freezing temperatures two-3 months of the year in Jan-Feb. The rest of the time its sunny and warm. Less than 6 inches of rain annually. Winter is very brief and rather mild most years.

[SnakesInCoconuts]

Here's Cuddles:
5145
5146
"what the heck are you doing?"
5147

And here's Anders:
5148
5149

I'll make another post since there's a limit

[SnakesInCoconuts]

Here's more Cuddles:5150

And some more Anders:
5151
5152

Hope that helps.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well looking at those faces...those are not the same subspecies...right guys? Anders face almost looks like a radix to me. And Cuddles face looks eastern to me...but his body doesn't look eastern. I'm going to look again and count scales...I'm thinking out loud here....

[EasternGirl]

7 supralabials on Anders...I'm so tired...I don't know. I'm going with what I originally said...eastern for Cuddles...red-sided for Anders....or red-sided for both maybe. Anders body doesn't look like a radix to me.

[ConcinusMan]

Cuddles is an eastern (t. sirtalis sirtalis) and Anders is a very dark T. radix.

[Finalflash50]

Cuddles looks like either a red sided or eastern. I'm no pro, but Andre looks like a butler. I'm not a pro though.